Is anyone in Britain still voting Labour, if so why?

reply to post by SecretFace

...but there is one thing making sure nobody is poor and another paying for people to do nothing. How is that a productive society and aids the progression of not just a nation, but individuals as well?

The thing many seem to either ignore or not realise is that the vast majority of those who are receiving benefits, and who are being demonised for doing so, are only in that situation due to the policies of the politicians and their banker / industrialist cronies who are also orchestrating their demonization.

.....without working tax credits, this country would be one of the poorest in the developed world.

Quite.
The UK is in the middle of an ongoing trend of living standards consistently going down whilst despite what many would have us believe standards of living are improving in all comparable western European nations.

However, I am not going to condone people getting money for absolutely nothing!

At times that is the only option.

Do you honestly buy into the propaganda that most benefit recipients are malingering do-nothings?
I assure you, the majority find it a debasing and humiliating experience.

You seem to be arguing that without the benefit system there would be large scale civil unrest?
And you also seem to be claiming that a carte blanche stop on all immigration would cure all of this country's ills?

I understand and to a certain extent agree with some of your points but this country's underlying problems are far more deep rooted and complex.

reply to post by Korg Trinity

No... we are paying the price for the situation stagnating and stopping...

Which was inevitable given the nature of the falsely, over inflated nature of the housing market.

Demand, the lack of resource and desire for profit outstripped supply.

My parents were able to trade up given their changing increase in family needs... more kids more room needed etc...

Yes, so it was for many.....but for many this was, and still is, an impossible dream forced upon them.

I own my own home and if I want to trade up in today's climate I have to emigrate!

I am genuinely pleased for you that you own your own home - the fact you feel you can't 'trade up' is due to the fact that it's an inflated market, yet you seem to want it to be even more so?

Many people aren't as fortunate, perhaps you could spare a thought for them?

reply to post by SecretFace


I understand where you're coming from. And being honest I doubt anyone is happy with people who receive benefits and CHOOSE not to work, myself included. But there really is no incentive for them to work.

The only way to get these people to go to work is to improve wages. They are barely scraping through on handouts, but if they go to work they will be no better off. They'll still be forced to claim benefits and still have to scrape through - where's the incentive? There is none. Might as well stay home and barely scrape through, instead of knocking themselves out working and still barely scrape through.

I know many will probably jump all over me for saying there is no incentive to work, citing pride, dignity, and self-satisfaction in knowing they've earned what they get and this should be enough incentive - but dignity and pride doesn't pay bills or put food on the table, money does.

Raise minimum wage so that people don't have to claim ANYTHING from the taxpayer. Force bosses and corporations to pay proper wages, instead of expecting taxpayers to top up their pay. Then they will be off benefits altogether, they'll actually be paying tax instead of claiming tax credits, and they'll have money to spend in the High Streets.

This is the job of our government to make sure working people are treated and paid fairly and sufficiently, but it has let us down badly due to its members being corrupt, greedy and self-serving.

Pay proper wages, and you will have no problem getting people to go to work.

reply to post by Freeborn


I guess you have your experience and I have mine, mine covers ten years experience all over London mostly, but also Kent, Essex, Surrey and I have to tell you, it paints a different picture for me. Our problems are deep rooted, but on the surface it beggars belief how our own can continue to exist how they do, while others come here and exploit, very well I might add, those deep rooted issues that you speak of for their own gain. There are many that do struggle on benefits, there are many many who have perfectly comfortable lifestyles equal or even exceeding those that do work, hence the reason they strive to continue in receiving them.

As I said, there are certain things we cannot do without taking them over, which is impossible. The fact that we all allow one problem to persist and even attempt to rationalise it, is beyond me, but then not many perhaps have the experience that I have had. The experience where day in and day out I experience the reality of what's happening, certainly in London and as I said, according to colleagues, across the country when it comes to major cities.

One thing I think we can both agree on, is that it will get worse before it gets better.

reply to post by doobydoll


I agree, minimum wage is disgusting. The only way to get by is to have kids, seriously, breed as much as you can then you might be ok...Not sure what will be left for them though when they're of working age!

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Korg Trinity

 

No... we are paying the price for the situation stagnating and stopping...

Which was inevitable given the nature of the falsely, over inflated nature of the housing market.

Demand, the lack of resource and desire for profit outstripped supply.

My parents were able to trade up given their changing increase in family needs... more kids more room needed etc...

Yes, so it was for many.....but for many this was, and still is, an impossible dream forced upon them.

I own my own home and if I want to trade up in today's climate I have to emigrate!

I am genuinely pleased for you that you own your own home - the fact you feel you can't 'trade up' is due to the fact that it's an inflated market, yet you seem to want it to be even more so?

Many people aren't as fortunate, perhaps you could spare a thought for them?

edit on 21/8/13 by Freeborn because: grammar and clarity

I think you misunderstand the whole situation.

The idea of inflation without growth is one that has been forced upon us by the Governments of the last few years. The way things are set up now... if you have money you earn virtually nothing for it, if you don't have money then you can't move forward. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The only way to stem run away inflation is quantitative easing... releasing more money into the economy which devalues the currency further ironically...

it's the perfect storm... all we need now is for the bank of England to raise interest rates by a quarter twice in a rowq and you have a mass panic with house prices tumbling and people being forced out of their homes...

I agree I am fortunate to own my home, but the current situation is not isolated to home owners... it is actually far more expensive to Rent not just in the long run but month by month. The issue is that people are simply not earning enough to borrow the amounts needed..

Two ways to deal with that.... The way it is managed currently is to cap the total amount you can take a mortgage out at is typically no more than 4 times your annual income.

I believe the correct way to manage this is to engineer the situation by raising the minimum wage to at least a level that covers the first run of the property ladder.... you may say yeah put then this will cause run away inflation right? Correct... but you could easily underwrite this cost through the following methods plowing the money back into the economy.

1. Exiting the EU taking back our sovereignty
2. Detaching ourselves from the ridiculous amounts of foreign aid we give every year
3. capping the total amount of money that can exit the uk from foreign nationals to be sent home,

If you did this you would save Billions of pounds that could be spent in a stabilization package to off set the inflation that would occur as a result of the minimum wage increase.

one further change we must make...

We need to scrap the job seekers allowance / single credit system, when one goes out to work, a proportion of your wage NI or income tax should be put aside in a personal emergency fund. When you find your self out of work you should be able to draw upon this fund to cover your costs.

But once it's gone it's gone if you are still not working then you should be put to work in community service and paid national minimum wage.

This would take care of the welfare state situation labour was so happy to create.

My views may be right Wing.... but lets face it... the only choice we have for government in this country is Center.... it's about time the people stand up.....

Civil servants are suppose to be just that... the servants of the people... why are we standing by when clearly this has been turned on it's head????

Korg.

Originally posted by SecretFace
reply to post by doobydoll

 

I agree, minimum wage is disgusting. The only way to get by is to have kids, seriously, breed as much as you can then you might be ok...Not sure what will be left for them though when they're of working age!

Really??

So you would prefer employers to pay you less then I guess??

because believe you me it's an employers market out there and they know they don't get monkeys for peanuts anymore.... I'm a 39 year old prof guy whom used to be on £60k...10 years ago... i'm now on £18k i'm not embarrassed about it anymore... because most of my friends are in a similar position.

Korg.

I have been looking at this for years and I thought I had it all figured out, I thought that the country was being flooded with immigrants, and people allowed to make a life choice to live off benefits and not do a days work in their lives was a cheap political trick to buy votes with taxpayers money.

However, I've recently changed my view on this, I think it is a much deeper longer running and insidious plan, and all I can keep coming back to is social engineering and in particular the methodology given by Yuri Bezmenov.

Now you might or might not believe all of his story, but the plans he gives for destroying a nation from within are pretty much exactly what we're seeing I believe, and it all starts shortly before the miners strike and the destruction of the unions.

According to Bezmenov the steps required to achieve the take over (for want of a better way of putting it) of a nation comes in 4 steps:

Demoralization
Destabilization
Insurgency
Normalization

Lets just think about the steps that have occured in Britain since the end of the 70's (I'm writing this fast so these are broad strokes, but think deeper and you'll see more):

I can remember as a kid when suddenly every day on TV, on the radio, and in the papers I was hearing about racism - it was everywhere, racism, racism, racism.

I couldn't understand it, I'd never seen anything so bad as these guys were making out was happening, there were no attacks of people based on colour (because then it was a simple black vs white or vice versa story that was painted), but they way it was hammered home you'd have thought there were almost daily murders based on race, a bit like there are in some parts of Africa now.

But there wasn't, it was more of people feeling they were being victimised or complaining about what they claimed was said to them being wrong.

Then started gay rights, then religion, etc.

Now I'm not saying racism does not exist full stop, what I'm saying is that it was completely overblown, and the reason it was completely overblown was to start the process of demoralisation and destabilisation.

It was a process to divide people into groups rather than everyone being "British".

Think about people today, they belong to the gay community, the black community, the muslim community, the asian community, we have the Chinese community, the Indian community, and now with the influx of Eastern Europeans lots of other communities, we have groups who feel they belong together based on age, race, nationality, gender, religion, colour, and a whole host of other factions.

There are even splinter groups within these groups, the lesbian community, the black lesbian community, etc.

We even have people who view themselves as the workers, and other citizens as layabout or scroungers or dole dossers.

We have a completely fractured and destabilised, and largely demoralised country, particularly with the tough economic times, and the increasing amount of tax the workers are being burdened with and the unfairness of it all.

While this destabilising process was underway we also saw the destruction of the unions, the only way that the people of the country could stand up together and say "no" in unison.

Now each group feels happy when they are thrown some token bone, "we're listening and we care" and so the group being pandered to is happy.

But they are fools, they are Aldous Huxleys slaves who go along and do as they are told without coersion because they are happy with their enslavement - they don't even know that they are slaves.

And of course this further feeds the destabilisation, because as group A gets something, groups B, C, D etc feel that they are being unfairly treated.

So now we have the situation where in the past 1 parent of a family could work and the family would be able to live okay, but now both parents wotk and they are struggling.

They are angry because they see others doing nothing, but taking their tax payment and living for free.

So I believe that the reason that the country has been flooded with immigrants is not just to buy votes, but to destabilise and demoralise the population that is already here.

And the reason that some people are allowed to live off benefits (and have been raised to believe it's their "right") is to destabilise and demoralise the country.

It also creates economic stress, which makes the problem worse, which is what they want.

These people who are living on benefits are total slaves, they are owned by the state, and while they have had it easy, when the crunch comes they WILL do as they are told, or they lose EVERYTHING.

They are, along with the liberals, "rights" and politically correct loud mouths, the useful idiots that Bezmenov talks about, but when the crunch comes they will not have the power they falsely believe they have now, they will be the first against the wall or locked away as insurgents.

What comes next?

(continued)...

Insurgency.

When the economy collapses or whatever does happen, when times are even harder then what can people do.

They have no voice anymore, they have no feeling of belonging to Britain, they all feel isolated, and so they become insurgent - like the rioting we saw in London last year.

And then tough measures need to be taken to crush the rebellion, and the other groups, who are frightened agree.

Then comes the solution:

We must join Europe, give away our rights to self determination, our currency, our identity (or whatever they sell to us as the answer).

And the job is complete, and then comes the normalisation, where over the next few generations this is the norm, it is the only world they know.

I'd started a thread a while back about my kids and how I'd noticed that they only know a world with war a "war on terror" to be exact, and it is this painting of the world as a place that is far worse than it is that is what they want.

It takes a generation or 2 or 3 to normalise these views.

The thing that struck me recently was how my kids now view every little thing as "racist" "sexist" etc - they are having this division bred into their minds at school so that it is in their minds normal.

We also have the environmental push "we must pay more taxes, chaneg the way we live, etc, etc" to "save mother earth".etc.

I think Bezmenov is well worth listening to:

reply to post by SecretFace

I guess you have your experience and I have mine,

I guess so, I'm nearly 48 years old, whilst I still live in the North East where I was born and raised I have travelled quite extensively for both business and pleasure across the whole of the UK with many good friends and numerous associates the length and breadth of these islands.

...Our problems are deep rooted,

Common ground.

... but on the surface it beggars belief how our own can continue to exist how they do, while others come here and exploit, very well I might add, those deep rooted issues that you speak of for their own gain.

More common ground - the open door immigration policy that successive governments, both Labour and Tory, have implemented has been detrimental to this country and it's citizens.
But a carte blanche ban is not the answer.
Immigrants have provided this country with much needed diversity and have been a positive benefit to it's future growth and development.

The problem arises when it's open door to all and sundry, many of whom offer nothing positive, refuse to integrate - some even seek to impose their customs and values upon us - and as you correctly point out milk the system for all they can.
That needs to stop immediately, no if's or but's.

There are many that do struggle on benefits,

By far the majority.

....there are many many who have perfectly comfortable lifestyles equal or even exceeding those that do work, hence the reason they strive to continue in receiving them.

Yeah, agree there too.
But they are portrayed as the majority by MSM and politicians thus demonising all benefit recipients.

The malingerers and work shy who use the benefit system as a lifestyle choice need to be rooted out and treat accordingly.

But perhaps we should ask why they are so many on benefits?
Because there are so few well paid jobs - a decent days wage for a decent days work, it's not asking for much - as a direct result of the policies of both Labour and Conservative governments and the added incompetence and avarice of bankers and industrialists.
We are force fed the lie that it is acceptable to pay minimum wage, which is barely subsistence level, whilst the wealthy are obsessed with maintaining their obscene profits and high incomes.

We need to stop money bleeding out of this country - most previously nationalised industries are now foreign owned and are effectively syphoning money out of the country, money which could be re-invested in this country and it's people.

As said previously, and as coined by another ATS member - we need a full system re-boot giving the people a real and significant say and control over the governing of the country.

One thing I think we can both agree on, is that it will get worse before it gets better.

And again, more common ground.

reply to post by SecretFace


The short answer. Because the blood-sucking Tories still exist. People blame labour, but it was Thatcher and her bunch of scum who ransomed Britain to the corporations and crushed the underclasses. She also brought in the word 'scrounger' which the OP used in the first paragraph, as a phrase used against people who need help or benefits.

Sod the tories.

reply to post by Korg Trinity

I think you misunderstand the whole situation.

No, I just have a different perspective and opinion about some things.

The idea of inflation without growth is one that has been forced upon us by the Governments of the last few years. The way things are set up now... if you have money you earn virtually nothing for it, if you don't have money then you can't move forward. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Unless you have lots of money then you are accruing even more money than ever.
And at least if you have some money you have reasonable life choices - with no money you are pretty much screwed.
I've been in both places, I know which one is preferable.

... all we need now is for the bank of England to raise interest rates by a quarter twice in a rowq and you have a mass panic with house prices tumbling and people being forced out of their homes...

Which they've said they won't.

But in case you haven't noticed people are being forced out of their homes - repossessions are continuing at alarming rates, record numbers in sheltered accommodation, homeless in every town and city.
There's a complete lack of cheap and affordable housing for average to low income earners forcing them into the hugely inflated private renting sector. This in turn reduces their discernible income stifling any economic recovery.

The issue is that people are simply not earning enough to borrow the amounts needed..

I agree people aren't earning enough but borrowing money at high interest rates is not the answer.
In fact isn't that what they say caused a lot of this?

Bollocks to the private sector - implement a nationwide house building programme offering affordable housing.
If there's a skill shortage offer training - get's people off benefits and into work, solves the lack of housing problem and gives people more money to spend thus helping an economic recovery - it's not hard really is it?

What I will say is that at least you've thought about this and aren't spouting political dogma verbatim - we may differ in our preferred methodology but at I think we have the same interests at heart.

Two ways to deal with that.... The way it is managed currently is to cap the total amount you can take a mortgage out at is typically no more than 4 times your annual income.

That's no good if you haven't got a job as a result of the policies of successive governments.

I believe the correct way to manage this is to engineer the situation by raising the minimum wage....

Minimum wage has been one of the biggest failures for the ordinary working man and provides no incentive at all to work.

1. Exiting the EU taking back our sovereignty

Check.
Or at least having an open and honest debate on the pro's and con's followed by a referendum.
If the electorate vote for continued membership then we have to take a proactive and prominent role in EU issues ensuring the interests of the British people are put first and foremost.

2. Detaching ourselves from the ridiculous amounts of foreign aid we give every year

Check.

3. capping the total amount of money that can exit the uk from foreign nationals to be sent home,

Check.
And foreign companies.

And we need to ensure that existing Tax law are enforced thus reducing the billions of pounds each year large companies choose not to pay, with the governments knowledge and consent.

one further change we must make...

Don't agree at all with your views on the benefit system - yes we need to get rid of the option of benefits as a lifestyle choice but I firmly believe that a positive, forward thinking and progressive country is also a caring country that looks after it's own.

It's worth remembering that most people receive benefits as a direct result of the policies implemented by both Labour and Conservative governments, they are both equally to blame.

My views may be right Wing....

Right wing, left wing it's all bollocks - I'm me wing.
Spouting political dogma and rhetoric is no answer - I personally try to treat each individual issue / subject etc on it's own merits free from the restraints of political affiliation.

Civil servants are suppose to be just that... the servants of the people... why are we standing by when clearly this has been turned on it's head????

On that I agree 100%.

OK, have only read the OP, not read any responses yet. This was a purposeful decision as I didn’t want to be swayed by any other posts.

You are aware that this isn’t a labour gov?

I agree with most of what you have said....the welfare state has been mis-used, abused and taken advantage of and needs reform. Don’t get me wrong, we still need it....not as in NEED, but as in "need because we're human".

but who's gonna do it.......the cons??? the libs?????/ new lab>>>>>no? then who?

reply to post by skalla


having only just met you....glad to see its not just knapping and walking sticks......keep on keeping on brother.

reply to post by idmonster


Cheers dude

I've had quite the cynical, rude day on ATS after a few weeks off actually. I've even been constructive and nice a couple of times, but dont tell anyone

The Labour Party are far from perfect, but I won't vote for anyone else!
It is the gullible British public that get's me. Some years ago we had a degree of respect in Europe, not now. We are the laughing stock of Europe, with Cameron and his Bullington boys running the show! They don't have the foggiest idea about the real world. Look at the village idiot Boris?

No doubt I will get some flack over my comments, but I have my reasons for not giving a #!
People are more selfish now than they have ever been and they get what they deserve. Some can't even be bothered to get off their backsides and vote, so why bother with democracy?

The aliens are already here, so it doesn't really matter anyway. They just let us think we are running the show!
Have a nice life everyone ... I am on ATS from time to time if anyone wants a chat.


hx

reply to post by SecretFace


I'd vote for the head of a labour party candidate, on a pointy stick.

reply to post by eletheia


Yes he did, which is why in my opinion, he is the worst PM we have ever had. Most British PMs have been self interested bastards, but he didnt even have the decency to pretend to care about the people, thier wishes, thier feelings, or indeed anything that the people of our nation gave a damn about. The fact is, that the man consistently made choices and acted in a manner which would only ever end up benifiting himself, rather than acting in any fashion which could be mistaken for selflessness.

These are not the actions of a leader, but of a thief, a corruptor, a degenerate, and worst of all, a traitor to the socialist and left leaning members of the Labour voters who got him into power. Theres a circle of hell for folk like him.

In brief:

We've got an education secretary whose name can't even be mentioned among teachers
A health secretary that has just had a 'vote of no confidence' made among the British Medical Association
A Home Secretary that disregards scientific advice in her decisions (hence completely nonsense drug laws) and is responsible for the 'illegal' stop and search of 'suspected immigrants'.
The domination of finance and business in the party (27% worked in finance, 29% in business occupations) plus the fact that 20 of them went to Eton, shows a party that will only increase class division.
There have been countless riots, protests and strikes during this goverment, and they offered no long-term solutions, just mass punishments.

And apparently they've been successful because the economy has increased by 0.59% in one quarter...

reply to post by twfau


I completely agree with you, the shocker is that Labour are still a shower of brown stuff when it should be easy for them at present. Are they really that inept or is it just part of an illusion of participation that we are being subjected to? I lean firmly towards the latter.