Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt

a reply to: Sahabi

Not sure if I have shared this with you in this thread or not but will drop it off . BIBLICAL MATH AS HEILSGESCHICHTE?
Lloyd R. Bailey drmsh.com...

[snip]

Is there evidence elsewhere in ancient Near Eastern literature of the deliberate addition of a seven to numbers? It is conspicuously present in the lists of pre-diluvian rulers known as the Sumerian King List. In two of the three editions that have been preserved, the ancient scribe expressed the total of reigns in terms of a standard symbolic number plus an additional number seven (see Table 2, below). As for biblical literature, consider the case of the number of provinces in the Persian Empire. Internal records list from 20 to 30 of them at the time of Darius, whereas the Bible states that there were 120 (Dan. 6:1). However, at the time of his successor (Ahasuerus), there were 127 of them (Est. 1:1). Nothing prevents an empire from expansion, but why precisely by seven? Then, consider the ages of the patriarchal figures (Table 1).
Keep in mind that the ‘ideal’ age among the Egyptians was variously stated to be 110 or 120, and that the maximum lifespan allowable by the Bible is also 120 (Gen. 6:3). Curiously, only those persons who attain precisely those ages have been residents of Egypt (Joseph and Joshua at 110 and Moses at 120). One might be astonished, therefore, to notice that Sarah attains the age of 127! These concerns apply to the ages of the post-diluvians as well, although less conspicuously so (Table 1):15 cases out of 27. It is also evident in most of the other numbers in the early chapters of Genesis, among them the following: the dimensions of Noah’s ship (300 × 50 × 30), rain for 40 days and 40 nights, water covers the tops of the mountains to a depth of 15 cubits and endures for 150 days. Calculation in Base-60 The second fundamental observation to be made is that a substantial number of the ages involve the number 60. For example: Enoch’s 300 years is 60 × 5, Kenan’s 840 years is 60 × 14, Moses’ 120 years is 60 × 2, Methuselah’s 187 years is (60 × 3) + 7, Sarah’s 127 years is (60 × 2) + 7, Enosh and Sarah’s 90 years is 60 + 60/2, and Shelah, Peleg and Serug’s 30 years is 60/2. Fixation with this same number is evident in many other places in the early chapters of Genesis and conspicuously so in the dimensions of Noah’s ark. Its volume is 450,000 cubic units, which can be expressed as 602 × [(60 × 2) + 5] cubic units. That this focus on the number 60 represents a common ancient Near Eastern convention, rather than biological reality, becomes clear from a comparison with the Sumerian King List (Table 2). Table 2: The Sumerian King List Name Length of Reign

a reply to: Sahabi

Olam Ha BA is afterlife, I think if I read correctly at Chabad that refers to a twelve month purification process in Gehinom which was identified with Sheol. I only just perused a few sights but there are more that say this that came up and I don't have time right now to

If you look again at my comment on Revelation I said it was "a real place", I will chock that up to oversight. I definitely knew it was real because it was half my point,the other being fantasy.

I don't know how old Jewish thought has thought of Gehenom as a punishment afterlife for a time though I think it is in Talmud and if not is in Zohar.

I will have to continue this later though.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Nope, this is my first time seeing it. It's an interesting article by Lloyd R. Bailey. Numbers are our friends

a reply to: Sahabi


Parasha 44 Beresheth A.

When the rule of the left was aroused, it's dispute with the right began and the fire of anger in that dispute became fierce. From this dispute, Gehenom was awakened, and created by the left, and cleaved to it, which means that whoever wants to strengthen the left shall fall into Gehenom, which orifinates from it.

The number of mentions of Gehenom in Beresheet of vol 1 even if you remove the Ashlag commentary is staggering.

I know you said it was only a physical geographical location, so I wanted to provide one example of Jewish sacred scripture saying otherwise and that it existed since the beginning.

Possibly, but not likely, Jews borrowed the Islamic concept of Gehenom. Though I have never heard of any Jew saying this so I have to conclude it was a physical location like Har Meggido and a mystical location like...Har Meggido.

And that Arabs didn't invent it, picked it up from Christianity. Gehenom the name is Hebrew and ever since they crossed paths with Persia and Babylon under Persia with the Chaldeans their once Canaanite religion became monotheistic and Sheol became a place of punished synonymous with Gehenom today.

Since Sheol is mentioned in the Bible and necromancy performed in the Bible they must have envisioned an afterlife for the dead. Enoch ascended as did Elijah so we have heaven and hell in the OT. Sheol is Gehenom in modern thought so that (at least retroactively) identifies Gehenom with the afterlife.

Also, have you considered the Karaites as the most Biblically correct of Jews? They use more than the Torah+ Joshua (not Torah/Law, just 'history') which seems odd considering they are the heretics, in the minds of Judeo-Christian faiths, and only use the most ancient scriptures not identified with Babylon at all (except the flood and creation).

The complaint Jews have about Samaritans who are forced to swear allegiance to Halakhic law in order to remain in their ancestral homeland.

Good thing you aren't Jewish because I have many grievances Israel that are on par with the worst grievances against Muslims including land thievery and mass deception, puppeteering heads of state to war leaving Israel's neighbors unstable.

If most people knew the evil deeds of Zionists they wouldn't believe it, so much disinformation about Muslims exists, on the other hand, that a naive mind will never get the true story to make a rational decision regarding who is at fault for all the war in the Mid East.


I know one thing, Palestine didn't ask to be invaded and occupied and was home to Jewish settlers before the invasion.

Another thing I know is they didn't deserve it.

If it never happened and the Jews settled in, say Yemen, we would not have this problem.

And to paint a clear picture of how radicalized they are they believe "God" gave them the "title deeds" to Israel. THAT is fanatical, believing God deals in real estate and is a supporter of terrorism, state sponsored.

I mean, the Bible DOES leave that impression but it's not even close to a good enough reason to steal a country.

Let me end saying that they cry anti Semite whenever criticized and it works. But most Jews are Ashkenazi Yaphetites and not Shemites, so it doesn't apply to them.

Another thing, why does every race except the Jewish race (they say it is a race not me) use the term racism to describe race based hatred towards them? Why do they get a special word for hatred towards Jews when most aren't a member of the Semitic race and Arabs and Persians are?

It's injustice at it's finest and in the Red Heifer it is clear that the Jews and Christians would never be satisfied until they join their respective religions and didn't want the Arabs to have their own religion or Prophet.

Despite this it is not at the exclusion of the Sabaen, Christian or Jew that the Muslim gains entrance to heaven.

Compare that with the hellfire made especially for non Christians or the sub human status of the goy in Talmud and Islam comes out the most logical of the 3 by miles and miles.

Regardless of propaganda sponges soaking up hate speech from elected officials and fake news websites, disinformation spread by a corrupted machine, conspiracy fodder.

At least you didn't say Allah is Semiramis (obviously Semitic name) or a "moon god." I have had to tell many people that this is a case of disinformation unsupportable by facts. The moon and Venus were always goddesses in the Mid East.

A secret moon goddess cult? LoL.

a reply to: Sahabi

But I have been looking for the right person to ask a specific question.

If we us the following analogy, Qur'an=Tanakh and Hadith=Talmud , what would the Islamic equivalent of the Zohar be?

Would the Iyha ulum al-din by Al-Ghazali be a good candidate? I have book IX Invocations (of God) and supplications or Kitab al-adhkar wal da'awat and there are 30 some odd books, 30 vols. too so they are real size books not short books in a larger book.

It's the best I have been able to find and the oldest.

a reply to: Sahabi

"Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt"

All our organised religious texts are corrupt considering they were written by Man with all his fears and fallibility at play.

Simple fact is they are laced with control constructs, contradictions and double standards, designed to keep all but the priest cast away from any true grains of knowledge than may have slipped by.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Sahabi

"Islam's Incorruptible Qur'an Is Corrupt"

All our organised religious texts are corrupt considering they were written by Man with all his fears and fallibility at play.

Simple fact is they are laced with control constructs, contradictions and double standards, designed to keep all but the priest cast away from any true grains of knowledge than may have slipped by.

That's a bit extreme but religion does things like that, not the books. You gotta be a little impressionable, to be polite, if a book can control your mind.

Truth is most Muslims, Christians, Jews and most religions' adherhents don't read their scripture much, so you can't blame a book for making someone a lousy person.

It's the individual religious teachers who teach corrupt versions of what their scripture is meant to teach and infuse new doctines and false interpretations of obscure passages.

Mind control doesn't happen with manifesto literature or scripture, it doesn't work like that.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

"That's a bit extreme but religion does things like that, not the books. You gotta be a little impressionable, to be polite, if a book can control your mind."

Organised religious practice is rather more extreme which is perfectly illustrated by the countless millions that have died throughout recorded history as a direct result.

"Truth is most Muslims, Christians, Jews and most religions' adherhents don't read their scripture much, so you can't blame a book for making someone a lousy person."

They are all Abrahamic by there very nature, tomato tomato really. People are people, some will always choose to follow. I can blame a book for promotion of a lousy religion through essentially any of them the promote the notion to kill in the name of God.

"It's the individual religious teachers who teach corrupt versions of what their scripture is meant to teach and infuse new doctines and false interpretations of obscure passages."

This is also true, but the agenda remains the same.

"Mind control doesn't happen with manifesto literature or scripture, it doesn't work like that."

Same crap different packaging, mass media being the new organised religion of the day, that's how mind control works. And rather more effectivly i might add.

a reply to: andy06shake

I didn't even debate that religion causes problems or even war.

Just that books weren't responsible.

Books don't kill people.

And mind control is more complicated than a or many books. It takes corrupt indoctrination from a corrupt organization over many years and after many traumatic experiences can you seriously control someone's mind.

If a person doesn't join a church and just reads the Bible or Qur'an they aren't going to become indoctrinated. Most people who DO go to church or mosque or synogogue AREN'T indoctrinated either.

You paint too many people one color in your mind next thing you know you lose the ability to see individuals as individuals.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

"I didn't even debate that religion causes problems or even war."



"Just that books weren't responsible."
"Books don't kill people. "

Ideologies of a certain nature, contained with in books and religious texts, can be subverted to provoke people to kill, or kill in the name of God, as sure as any bullet or RPG. That's pretty much a given and part of historical record.

"And mind control is more complicated than a or many books. It takes corrupt indoctrination from a corrupt organization over many years and after many traumatic experiences can you seriously control someone's mind."

Do you speak from personal experience, please enlighten me?

"If a person doesn't join a church and just reads the Bible or Qur'an they aren't going to become indoctrinated. Most people who DO go to church or mosque or synogogue AREN'T indoctrinated either."

Indoctrinated in to what? People are indoctrinated and conditioned to think in a certain manner every day of the week via our mass media networks and other NEWS outlets.

"You paint too many people one color in your mind next thing you know you lose the ability to see individuals as individuals."

You make far to many assumptions, i hate everyone equally, trust me i don't discriminate.

You may not be as much of an individual as you think given the conundrum of freewill vs determinism, just a thought.

a reply to: Sahabi

This is just a coincidence but I was flipping through a book to get to a particular piece of Apocrypha and stumbled upon the (weak Christian imitation of 4 Esdras) Revelation of Esdras.

Granted it's pseudepigraphal and beyond hope as anything resembling Canonical it uses an interesting term:

1:3 "Gehenna of fire."

Now I cross checked it with 4 (actually 2) Esdras and lo! The term Hades is used in its place but only in Greek, not Latin and Gehenna no doubt must have been in the 'author' of R. of Esdras copy or he'd have used Hades as it was a well known term for hell at this point.

Although 2 Esdras 2:29 has, in the Latin copy:

"My power will protect you, so that your children may not see Gehenna (hell/Hades in Greek).

And Hades is oft mentioned throughout 2 Esdras.

So we have it positively identified with hell in the time Jerome translated the Vulgate at the latest and likely much earlier in Jewish thought as Sheol was more Tartarus than Hades Gehenom would be a perfect match.

Modern Jewsh thought thinks of Sheol and Gehenom as one and the same, I don't know if that is universal but in the Zohar it is more hell or Hades than Sheol or Tartarus of old thought.

So there is no way Islam is responsible for the concept of Gehenom as a name for hell.


ETA: Yes, another coincidence, I kid not.

Matthew 23 in the Greek also uses "Children of Gehenna." where our English states "of hell."

So it can semi confidently be placed to before the first century as a synonym for hell.

From IOESUS CHRISTOS himself.

a reply to: andy06shake


I like books, especially religious books and I am far from anything resembling mind controlled or even indoctrinated and exist in peace bothering no one and not being bothered by anyone.

So you can save the books=mind control nonsense because you won't sell me.

a reply to: irenialilivenka

I like books also buddy, just not ones that tell me how to live my life to there letter else my eternal mortal soul be in peril.

Or promote the notion that to kill other people of a different religious denomination in the name of God is somehow ok and encouraged.

I'm not suggesting that you are bothering anyone, but if you place any stock in the Bible, or another organised religious text for that matter, i'm afraid you have indeed been subjected to a form of mind control and/or conditioning.

Like i said organised religious practice is extreme, i'm just me.

a reply to: andy06shake

I like books also buddy, just not ones that tell me how to live my life

Some books have ideas about political ,social choices .We are born into a construct that makes a culture .Our culture is both passed on down to us and as time goes by we insert different norms .Our parents parents handed down to the present what we have today .

Most if not all of what makes us today is from a external force called ideas . My guess is that not all people read the same material and even if they did doesn't mean that all will buy into the ideas .We are not islands .We come from a past to the present and will move forward to newer or older ideas . The US is the US mainly because of their constitution . It is a idea that restrains the society to not go off the rails and one that causes people to unite under that idea .

a reply to: the2ofusr1

US constitution also promotes freedom yet allowed slavery to exist, and my own nation was no better, just a thought.

We do indeed come from a past to the present yet seem doomed to repeat historical mistakes or learn from past events.

Now Trumps president who knows what on the cards?

Old ideas would be my guess.

a reply to: andy06shake

If we look close at how things can change we can see how the art of persuasion plays its part as well .Telling people to or not to smoke can play a minor roll but persuasion is a much more subtle way . A kind of covert way of achieving the same results .Terry O'reilly's podcasts are a great source of the history ,methods and mistakes that worked or failed .www.cbc.ca...

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Fact is if you tell people to do one thing they generally wish to do the opposite, especially if you demand so.

Point is our methods and mistakes are repeated from generation to generation without us seemingly attaining the ability to learn from those mistakes.

Same crap different rapping paper.

a reply to: andy06shake

Point is our methods and mistakes are repeated from generation to generation without us seemingly attaining the ability to learn from those mistakes.

The point may be to tptb that yes these methods as well as the mistakes do work .(not necessarily to benefit us) but to move their agenda .As far as us learning from the past we can make mental notes of how tptb operate .Take the new religion of Scientology .A good reason for creating such a thing would be to serve both the technocratic age while appeasing peoples Religious sprite . A kind of new god so to speak . The attempt to usher in ecumenical links where at present there are differing camps was a tip off to as what was really going on . So most of the masses were not buying it . tptb are at a place where their options are zero in that front.

Could it be moving to a MAD type of scenario or are they going to regroup and try and figure a way to do it ? They don't need the money ...they make the money ...they want total control ,and will have to resort to deception to get it .imo

a reply to: the2ofusr1

"tptb are at a place where their options are zero in that front."

Probably just seems that way, sure they already have 70-90% of the monies available at there disposal. They have the control over our nations via there political puppets and mass media News networks. There military Industrial complex pretty much Police the world, but like any agenda it will evolve to suite there purpose which seems to be now for the very control over the way we think and act.

a reply to: Sahabi

Just had this new vid come up ...