The Lost Cradle of Civilization

Originally posted by punkinworks10
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

Hi slayer
You know,
In a past thread, might have been one of yours, Hans posted a link to a paper on mid holocene littoral communitys along the west coast of the Persian gulf. The reason I remember is that they said in some places, when the waters started rise, it was so flat the the water progressed inland a km per day.
I'll try to track down the paper.

That is an important paper if that proves to be true as at that speed, people have plenty of time to move but not enough time to move heavy goods / machinery (early, not going all far fetched!). Some livestock could be saved, some abandoned, etc etc. This could also help to account for some of the more scattered development (in terms of timescales) we see over the following several thousand years in that some groups fleeing the area would have time to take more when they settle, other groups would be starting from scratch.

Anyhow, another great thread Slayer, many thanks. I will drop back in when i have the time (as a thread like this deserves).

reply to post by Flavian


Hi flavian,
This isn't the paper I was looking for but it is on subject and very fresh,


Not the paper I was looking for, but touches on the subject

Abstract

Pre-Pottery Neolithic assemblages are best known from the fertile areas of the Mediterranean Levant. The archaeological site of Jebel Qattar 101 (JQ-101), at Jubbah in the southern part of the Nefud Desert of northern Saudi Arabia, contains a large collection of stone tools, adjacent to an Early Holocene palaeolake. The stone tool assemblage contains lithic types, including El-Khiam and Helwan projectile points, which are similar to those recorded in Pre-Pottery Neolithic A and Pre-Pottery Neolithic B assemblages in the Fertile Crescent. Jebel Qattar lies ~500 kilometres outside the previously identified geographic range of Pre-Pottery Neolithic cultures. Technological analysis of the typologically diagnostic Jebel Qattar 101 projectile points indicates a unique strategy to manufacture the final forms, thereby raising the possibility of either direct migration of Levantine groups or the acculturation of mobile communities in Arabia. The discovery of the Early Holocene site of Jebel Qattar suggests that our view of the geographic distribution and character of Pre-Pottery Neolithic cultures may be in need of revision.

www.plosone.org...:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0068061


This Google search turned up some good info
www.google.com... bts=1377012394173

Just want to say how wonderful this thread is. It's one that should be drawn to the attention of the man who put up the amazing website on the history of information (see my signature for a link to my thread which was written upon finding this website. I've yet to spend the tens of hours likely needed to fully appreciate and process it). Thanks for the work.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

It's hard to get a good feel for prehistorical geography. Temperature and thus sea levels and vegetation have shifted a great deal in the last 100K years plus. Another wildcard in imagining the development of early man is the many giant species that existed at the time, making survival a constant challenge- giant cats, bears, dogs, birds, etc.


I was wondering how you think the Toba eruption fits into all of this? It happened probably 70K ya or so, which is well before the possible situation you talk about here. But I've thought that if there were a precursor to the civilizations around 10,000 yo.... in way deeper history.... that it may have been in what is now Indonesia. Between rising sea levels and the super volcano, there could easily have been a legitimate civilization that left very scarce evidence. And it isn't too far to be part of a potential trade network with all of the big ones- Sumer, Indus, China, maybe the Persian Gulf.

ETA: Also, the migration to Australia has always been a piece to the puzzle that I find interesting. People there and also in New Guinea are closer genetically to Africa than SE Asia. Not sure how that fits, but with higher sea levels Indonesia is just a skip from Austrailia and if the ancient world's network is that big then Indonesia really becomes a central location.

edit on 8/18/2013 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

10,000 years ago, Great Britain was connected to Europe by a marshy bit of land that geologists call Doggerland. Even now, when oil rigs drill through the sea-bed, they find animal bones, arrow-tips, tusks and even bits of prehistory jewelery. In the past 400 years alone, Britain's coastlines have receded by around 3 miles in some places. On many maps, there are villages and roads that are now non-existent

That's just 400 years, when there was a land registry that documented property locations. Some settlements such as Stonehenge go back 6000 years. Then there are the stone forts up in the islands of Scotland. And no-one really knows who built them

Then in Turkey, there are those underground cities carved straight out of the rock thousands of years ago, that could house thousands of people for up to six months. Each room has it's own air circulation system consisting of vertical shafts to the surface, plus a communal airlock consisting of a rolling stone disc. There's even a hole in the roof to allow showers for decontamination (or hot oil to be poured on enemies, or maybe ceremonial oil for purification). Carvings show that they were instructed to build these by the Zoroastrian god.

WOW! How in the world did I miss this?!

Oh yea I had a baby. lol

I am so going to save this for when the little one goes to bed at night.



I so enjoy your threads!

Great posting Slayer sorry I missed it when it first came out

A few points

I read the base document

New Light on Human Prehistory in the Arabo-Persian Gulf Oasis

This differs somewhat in what the first guys says is in I cannot find like mentions of 'stone houses', etc

What I suspect we'll find are interesting cultures that may have lead to the Ubaidians and those that started the Indus civ. Using the strict interpretation of 'civilization', no I don't think we'll find one in the submerged valley, if it is there it would be very small.

Other comments to things noted by other posters

There is evidence of cultures having been in the Gulf valley, as there are around that same area, interesting enough when I visited Kish island long ago I spoke with a geologist who talked about the geological rising of the northern edge of the Gulf exposing a number of sites.

There is no evidence of a world wide flood, there have been at various times regional floods, the Bible is simply wrong on this account. Remember the Hebrew and Christian gentlemen writing it were scientifically uneducated and in most cases repeated earlier stories or made up stuff while trying to explain the world around them.

No mention of aliens in Sumerian writing - that was all made up by Sitchin

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I'd like to read your thoughts and views on this very real possibility. I know for some the 'Bible' is the truth about the 'Flood' and for Science if it's not something they can dig up and carbon date they get a bit myopic. Just keep in mind that we humans have been pretty damn smart and resilient group since day one imho. Why couldn't there have been an advanced culture or early civilization under the Gulf which branched out either before or shortly after being flooded out and either seeded or influenced those two known cradle civilizations? It was old enough and central to both Sumer and the Indus Valley?

Just for thought. The civilizations on the bottom of the Persian Gulf might actually disprove the Genesis idea. Who says the civilizations validate it?

For example, there is an old Hindu legend that BEFORE they settled on the Indus, they left their flooding city which existed "beyond the seven little sister islands". Those "seven little sister" islands exist ONLY in the Persian Gulf, but not at present sea levels. The seven little sister islands existed in the Persian Gulf at approximately minus -40 meters below present sea level.

That means the city that flooded in the Persian Gulf around minus -40 meters was HINDU. Not Jewish, definitely not Muslim and definitely not Christian. The Hindu city of Dwaraka which sits in the Gulf of Cambay also flooded at minus -36 meters.

Eden, on the other hand sits where 4 rivers intersect at the bottom of the Persian Gulf. Those rivers would be the Tigris, Euphrates, Gihon and Pishon. Those 4 rivers intersect closer to the minus -30 meter plane beneath the Gulf. Technically, early Hinduism would be older than Judaism.

In otherwords, the cities sunken on the Persian Gulf would be the ancestors of the Indus civilization, since by legend, they left their flooding city in the gulf to settle on the Indus. Doesn't exactly validate Christianity at all. But the oil companies really have no intention of allowing underwater excavation anyway, because they want the oil in the sunken region. They don't want an underwater holy war.

And another thought... who says finding Eden in the Persian Gulf validates the triad? It might not validate Christianity. It might not validate Judaism. And it wouldn't necessarily validate Islam. Whatever city sits under the Persian Gulf at the intersection of the Tigris, Euphrates, Gihon and Pishon (minus -30 meter plane), if there were underwater archeology, what do you seriously think you'd find? It's going to be a bustling port city. They might worship multiple deities. Who knows, maybe they have goddess temples. Maybe you'll find Hindu deity statues there. But finding Eden underwater at the intersection of those 4 rivers, well, let's just say that you aren't going to find a Jewish tabernacle, you won't find a Christian church and you aren't going to find a Muslim mosque at the intersection of the Tigris, Euphrates, Gihon and Pishon.

I did do some maps of the Persian Gulf in different phases in the past. I think they are somewhere up on ImageShack somewhere, but not sure where. You can browse my thumbs if you want to see my old Persian Gulf sunken cities maps.

MapMistress' Sunken Coast Maps: Old Set

or if I've linked to them...

MapMistress' List of Maps: Sunken Civilizations

reply to post by MapMistress


Howdy MapMistress

I would point out that at this time the finding of a 'city' in Cambay has never been verified and the 'artifacts' were found to be natural marine encrustations.

Eden, the problem is that there is no ageement on what or where the other two rivers described in Genesis are, Pishon and Gihon had been located in various parts of the world.

It should be remembered that when the Hebrew gentleman wrote that document they were doing so to discribe a religious point and not a geographical one. Eden has been 'located' in lots of places.

However as the E-T does empty into the PG it's possible that some legendary connection remains.

--------------------------------------

Slayer could you define for us what you mean by civilization?

I suspect what we will find in the Gulf are cultures equal to those of the PPNA and earlier cultures - but we could hope for more - but a civilization?

Originally posted by MapMistress
In otherwords, the cities sunken on the Persian Gulf would be the ancestors of the Indus civilization, since by legend, they left their flooding city in the gulf to settle on the Indus. Doesn't exactly validate Christianity at all. But the oil companies really have no intention of allowing underwater excavation anyway, because they want the oil in the sunken region. They don't want an underwater holy war.

If the dates given in the supporting articles are fairly accurate then there would be NO real foundation for such a 'Holy War'. This would have happened at a time before any of the Abrahamic faith began. Hindu> Possibly but I contend that the period in question could be (Excuse the phrase) the Genesis of both. a Precursors to both faiths. Just like the conjecture set forth in my original post.

Is it possible that because of such an early date in history that both the Indus Valley and earliest Sumerians and a few others may have based their foundations on a common heritage and then grew separately and into distinct entities from there?

The thread is conjecture based on known recent discoveries and is not a deceleration of facts by any stretch of the imagination.

Originally posted by Hanslune
Slayer could you define for us what you mean by civilization?

I suspect what we will find in the Gulf are cultures equal to those of the PPNA and earlier cultures - but we could hope for more - but a civilization?

civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn) n.

1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.

2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.

3. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.

4. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.

5. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.

I think #2 possibly applies. Again, is it possible that 'We' the modern world needs to push back both our understanding and also open ourselves up to the growing possibility of an earlier phase in human history in this now forgotten 'Epoch'?

Originally posted by MapMistress
And another thought... who says finding Eden in the Persian Gulf validates the triad? It might not validate Christianity. It might not validate Judaism. And it wouldn't necessarily validate Islam.

I'm not exactly sure how familiar you are with what is accepted by many as the real history of the Abrahamic faiths which include Islam. Which by the way Islam being the youngest of the three. Judaism, Christianity and then later Islam.

However if we were to follow that route of thinking and reasoning then may I suggest researching the history of the Hebrews and what is believed to be their point of origin by many going back thousands of years B.C. It's commonly believed by some [I'm not completely in agreement with this myself but] to come from around a location I purposely linked to in my opening piece.

Susa

Shortly after Susa was first settled 6000 years ago, its inhabitants erected a temple on a monumental platform that rose over the flat surrounding landscape. The exceptional nature of the site is still recognizable today in the artistry of the ceramic vessels that were placed as offerings in a thousand or more graves near the base of the temple platform. Nearly two thousand pots were recovered from the cemetery most of them now in the Louvre. The vessels found are eloquent testimony to the artistic and technical achievements of their makers, and they hold clues about the organization of the society that commissioned them. Painted ceramic vessels from Susa in the earliest first style are a late, regional version of the Mesopotamian Ubaid ceramic tradition that spread across the Near East during the fifth millennium B.C.[4]

Originally posted by Flavian
Anyhow, another great thread Slayer, many thanks. I will drop back in when i have the time (as a thread like this deserves).

Anyhow, another great thread Slayer, many thanks. I will drop back in when i have the time (as a thread like this deserves).

Flavian

Good to see ya.
I'm looking forward to your contributions to the ongoing discussion and or debate.

reply to post by Hanslune


Hi Hans,

In my previous post, I mentioned a paper on mid holocene littoral occupations of the persian gulf, did you supply the link to that paper?, in an older thread.
If so , could you post it again, if you didn't it was a fascinating read, and I'll try to dig it up.
They described occupations at several sites that showed a sedentary lifestyle on the coast with utilization of inland resources. The most interesting aspect was evidence for sewn plank watercraft some 9000 years ago.



Also I would have to argue against a PG- Dravidian early civ. connection , for two reasons.
The first is the extreme age depth for human occupation in the indus valley. There is continuity going back almost 2 million years. The first peoples of the indus region were certainly truely indigenous, having evolved from south Asian archaics, African 'beach combers" and Eurasian modern humans.
The second reason is the utter lack of the horse among the Dravidians, there are no images of horses or horse remains found in any indus city till the arrival of the Aryans.
While on the Arabian peninsula, the horse has been domesticated for almost 9k years

Originally posted by punkinworks10
Also I would have to argue against a PG- Dravidian early civ. connection , for two reasons.
The first is the extreme age depth for human occupation in the indus valley. There is continuity going back almost 2 million years.

I'd like to read your source on this claim please. I think that would be a fascinating read.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Hi slayer

Here you go

The Soanian is an archaeological culture of the Lower Paleolithic (ca. 500,000 to 125,000 BP) in the Siwalik region of the Indian subcontinent.[1] Contemporary to the Acheulean, it is named after the Soan Valley in the Sivalik Hills, Pakistan. Soanian sites are found along the Sivalik region in present-day India, Nepal and Pakistan.[2]

On Adiyala and Khasala about 16 km (9.9 mi) from Rawalpindi terrace on the bend of the river hundreds of edged pebble tools were discovered. At Chauntra hand axes and cleavers were found.

No human skeletons of this age have yet been found, however, tools up to two million years old have been recovered. In the Soan River Gorge many fossil bearing rocks are exposed on the surface. 14 million year old fossils of gazelle, rhinoceros, crocodile, giraffe and rodents have been found there. Some of these fossils are on display at the Pakistan Museum of Natural History in Islamabad.

The term "Soan Culture" was first used by Hellmut De Terra in 1936,[3] however, D. N. Wadia had identified the presence of these archaeological implements in 1928.[4]

en.m.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by punkinworks10


The deal there is that they could have been left by other hominins/hominids. I'm not saying it isnt possible but like your source states

'No human skeletons of this age have yet been found,'

No?

reply to post by SLAYER69


Link to definitions of Civilization

I'm not sure if we would find multiple full blown cities, language, etc in PG we might but it seems early - but perhaps we'll be surprised like CH and GT.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Some types of soil don't allow the formation of fossilized bones, it 'eats up' the bones. That type of soil may exist in that area, or the archaeologists have been unlucky.

In my guestimation we'll find more advanced cultures in the Zagros mountains and the classic fertile crescent but I'm not ruling out Anatolia or the Balkans, SE Asia could also surprise us. Scatter diagrams of finds around the PG don't show the loci of pottery or stone tools in that area. (AFAIKN).

Punkinworks I could suggest you look at the work of Charles Highham and Solheim.

reply to post by SLAYER69


That is true, but there is a continuity of industry in the area, that shows in the fact that the basic tool kits are consistent through the archaic/ modern transition period.

Also in my previous post when I said there was no PG/Dravidian connection, what I really meant to say is that I font believe they have common roots, but there is certainly an ancient connection between the two cultural areas.

reply to post by punkinworks10


If you go back far enough everything links up in Africa. Cultures change over time if say two brother split up over a women in the PG circa 12,000 years ago and each what would become the ultimate founders of the Ubaidians and the Harappa how much in common would these two cultures still have? Especially if they intermarried with other groups during those many thousands of years?