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Transgender-students win rights... A first in the USA...?
page: 2share:
reply to post by NavyDoc
As I said, I wasn't sure on the bathroom/locker room situation.
Hasn't it been the norm here in the US to violate LGBT comfort and privacy because of societies' issues? Or should gays just get over their attraction to the same sex and a boy who identifies as a girl to have to look at penises everyday? They aren't a special class, they're human period... regardless of what gender they are or what orientation they are... they are human. When you don't acknowledge that a certain group has liberty or a right to equal treatment you are saying that they aren't human.
As for the differences in physical ability, there does tend to be hormonal differences in transgenders... born girls tend to be more physically strong, born boys tend to be less physically strong... but obviously if a born girl can't physically make the football team then they shouldn't that's the same as I feel about women in the military, some women are physically capable of being frontline marines... not all, and it doesn't need to become an equality issue... not all males make it in either.
Not hyperbole at all, but just an observation based on a pattern. Why should one person's comfort and privacy be violated to accommodate another person's issue? In our PC society, one groups needs are often discarded to accommodate the latest "special class." As for sports, there is a reason why there a different gender sports due to differences in physical and athletic abilities. Sure, it may make a transgender male feel special to play on a girl's team, but is it fair to the female athletes who have someone who has an advantage? Why is his need to feel fulfilled more important than the female athletes around him?
As I said, I wasn't sure on the bathroom/locker room situation.
Why should one person's comfort and privacy be violated to accommodate another person's issue?
Hasn't it been the norm here in the US to violate LGBT comfort and privacy because of societies' issues? Or should gays just get over their attraction to the same sex and a boy who identifies as a girl to have to look at penises everyday? They aren't a special class, they're human period... regardless of what gender they are or what orientation they are... they are human. When you don't acknowledge that a certain group has liberty or a right to equal treatment you are saying that they aren't human.
As for the differences in physical ability, there does tend to be hormonal differences in transgenders... born girls tend to be more physically strong, born boys tend to be less physically strong... but obviously if a born girl can't physically make the football team then they shouldn't that's the same as I feel about women in the military, some women are physically capable of being frontline marines... not all, and it doesn't need to become an equality issue... not all males make it in either.
I have no problem with the transgendered, they should have the same rights as everyone else. However, I do take issue with this full-blown assault on
reality:
Is this supposed to mean gender is a "role", not a biological fact?
They were "assigned a sex at birth"? Is this supposed to mean there is no such thing as boys and girls?
Why do you call them "girls" and "boys" if, according to the above, such distinctions dont really exist?
Same question as above.
So while Tolerance is a must, I think its more than a little weird what is being sold here between the lines, namely that males and females don't actually exist.
Originally posted by Rodinus
"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to "conventional" notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."
Is this supposed to mean gender is a "role", not a biological fact?
"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves.""Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."
They were "assigned a sex at birth"? Is this supposed to mean there is no such thing as boys and girls?
it would be wonderful to hear from you girls and boys
Why do you call them "girls" and "boys" if, according to the above, such distinctions dont really exist?
Your thoughts and comments Girls and Boys?
Same question as above.
So while Tolerance is a must, I think its more than a little weird what is being sold here between the lines, namely that males and females don't actually exist.
edit on 14-8-2013 by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Rodinus
So... the people in the middle are victims now? This is the question that you have asked... what would be your response?
Of-course they are. Let's put aside the girl students who won't feel comfortable and deal with an optional extreme situation.
Say a rape victim is in the volley-ball team, and can completely lose herself seeing a naked male. Why should she suffer only so an individual that decided to change sexes may feel comfortable?
Personally i would be understanding and take into consideration the environmental surroundings (people, religion etc...) before coming up with a "hopefully" respectful decision that i would ask everyone to have their thoughts about before applying?
I'm sure other girls would be understanding as well. Many of them will have no problem either. But some will be uncomfortable for sure.
Ps. How many TG students compared to "Normal" students in your eyes... AND... lets just say that the TG student has a handicap and is forced to live in a wheelchair or is blind, deaf or cannot speak???
I know that being TG is not a handicap 'normally speaking"... but maybe for some people that are TG this "could" be a handicap?... are you capable of putting yourself in a handicapped persons role?
I'm not too sure what you wrote back there (excuse me) but I have a lead I guess. Are you comparing Transgender student's difficulties with handicapped students? It's not even close.
If you are not "NORMAL" so to speak... should you be segregated???
Absolutely not. Putting you away from the girls shower while you are a born male is not segregation though.
Furthermore, while I wanted to stay away from the argument whether this law is right or wrong, a poster here asked a very important question. Indeed in most sport fields men have quite a big advantage over women due to their physical shape. Why exactly is it okay to unballance a whole game only so one individual may feel accomplished?
I'm torn on this one, while I understand the reasoning it doesn't change the fact that boys and girls do have different bodies. Very few girls could
compete against boys in competitive sports, so I guess that call should be made by the coaches whether a kid of a different physical gender has the
ability to compete on a team of the opposite gender.
Should a boy who identifies himself as girl be able to compete on a girl's wrestling team? I'm just not sure how practical or fair that would be. I do have empathy for the kids that are bullied and I'm not sure what the answers are.
Should a boy who identifies himself as girl be able to compete on a girl's wrestling team? I'm just not sure how practical or fair that would be. I do have empathy for the kids that are bullied and I'm not sure what the answers are.
Originally posted by Kali74
but obviously if a born girl can't physically make the football team then they shouldn't that's the same as I feel about women in the military, some women are physically capable of being frontline marines...
I suspect you haven't fully understood the point.
If Lebron James decided he's a transgender and went to play at the WNBA, would it be fair for the teams against him?
What about Usain Bolt and Sprint? Michael Phelps and Swimming?
Would it be fair to completely crush the chances of legitimate (sorry) girls in their fields only because an individual may feel accomplished to be a part of a gender he's sure he is?
And once again take it to the extreme - what stops an entire men's team to declare they are currently transgender in order to dominate the women's field?
Segregation exists for a purpose! Not because men might be offended to be on the same team with women, but because there are obvious GENETIC diffrences. If today we are mixing that up, what stops our "progressive" society from destroying the term gender?
What's so wrong about gender anyway?
Originally posted by Skyfloating
I have no problem with whatever rights transgendered people have, they should have the same rights as everyone else. However, I do take issue with this full-blown assault on reality:
Originally posted by Rodinus
"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to "conventional" notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."
Is this supposed to mean gender is a "role", not a biological fact?
"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves.""Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."
They were "assigned a sex at birth"? Is this supposed to mean there is no such thing as boys and girls?
it would be wonderful to hear from you girls and boys
Why do you call them "girls" and "boys" if, according to the above, such distinctions dont really exist?
Your thoughts and comments Girls and Boys?
Same question as above.
Tolerance and Civil Rights are a must. But I think its more than a little weird what is being sold here between the lines, namely that males and females don't actually exist.
Thanks for responding Sky
Before going any further and i made it quite clear in my original quote, all quotes came from here : en.wikipedia.org...
As for the Girls and boys... or for arguments sake... boys and girls..., this is my way of saying "folks or people"... But if you like "ATS members" to keep things sterile!... Is "folks or ATS members" a more politically correct way of addressing people just to keep a few happy?
Kindest respects
Rodinus
I know that being TG is not a handicap 'normally speaking"... but maybe for some people that are TG this "could" be a handicap?... are you capable of putting yourself in a handicapped persons role?
I'm not too sure what you wrote back there (excuse me) but I have a lead I guess. Are you comparing Transgender student's difficulties with handicapped students? It's not even close.
Yep, you understood exactly, my apologies for not being able to correctly express myself
Simple solution for everything... what happened to partitioned cubicles... i remember back in the 70s in the scools and colleges and certain swimming pools that i attended that there were cubicles in the changing/shower rooms (as well as shared rooms/showers) to give each and every pupil a certain degree of intimacy?
This was in the UK of course so maybe a cultural difference too!
Kindest respects
Rodinus
edit on 14-8-2013 by Rodinus because: (no reason given)
Just to add - gender testing for women has been going on in sport at Olympic level since 1966.
In SA we had the case of Caster Semenya in 2009.
Despite much secrecy, she apparently had subsequent gender tests. Some say she had hermaphrodism, with inner testes that could have seriously harmed her long-term health.
She was put on hormones that made her levels normal, and she was again allowed to compete as a woman (with less spectacular results).
I recall though that there is no clear definition of gender, and even XX or XY tests can be unreliable in some cases.
en.wikipedia.org...
Personally, I'd think that there can be different kinds of teams, but I'd still like sport to retain some teams on the traditional basis of gender and how women fairly compete against women, and men against men.
One can make laws like this to make everyone feel special.
But ultimately I doubt it will translate much into spectator sport, except for a freak show.
Sport is also about affirming gender and identification.
OK, we find some gay people coming out in sport (although it's probably not advisable), but they still have male or female bodies and prowess, and they've probably always been around in sport.
But this trans-sexual thing is a completely new phenomenon.
I don't even think the ancient Greeks would have allowed it.
But sometimes it's nice to know that one simply has the rights to do something.
I'm a male, but I want to be the next female education minister.
That's my right as a man.
It's not going to happen, but I'd like the right.
Here I'd add though that one should not hold individual transgender people responsible for political correctness disappearing up its own rear-end.
A few college taught and based radicals on gender construction can demand all kinds of things that have very little to do with reality.
Also as a gay man I find that something happens (like a Christian fundamentalist gets whacked at a pride parade) and suddenly all gay people are responsible.
Let's not generalize and blame all transgendered people.
Only a very small number of radical people really want to overthrow gender, and what's the point of being transgender if there is no more gender?
On the other hand, female sport should be given more recognition.
I was at a seminar a while back, and it was mentioned that the male rugby team was performing very badly.
Meanwhile the women's rugby team was winning all the time, and they didn't get any recognition whatsoever!
In SA we had the case of Caster Semenya in 2009.
Despite much secrecy, she apparently had subsequent gender tests. Some say she had hermaphrodism, with inner testes that could have seriously harmed her long-term health.
She was put on hormones that made her levels normal, and she was again allowed to compete as a woman (with less spectacular results).
I recall though that there is no clear definition of gender, and even XX or XY tests can be unreliable in some cases.
en.wikipedia.org...
Personally, I'd think that there can be different kinds of teams, but I'd still like sport to retain some teams on the traditional basis of gender and how women fairly compete against women, and men against men.
One can make laws like this to make everyone feel special.
But ultimately I doubt it will translate much into spectator sport, except for a freak show.
Sport is also about affirming gender and identification.
OK, we find some gay people coming out in sport (although it's probably not advisable), but they still have male or female bodies and prowess, and they've probably always been around in sport.
But this trans-sexual thing is a completely new phenomenon.
I don't even think the ancient Greeks would have allowed it.
But sometimes it's nice to know that one simply has the rights to do something.
I'm a male, but I want to be the next female education minister.
That's my right as a man.
It's not going to happen, but I'd like the right.
Here I'd add though that one should not hold individual transgender people responsible for political correctness disappearing up its own rear-end.
A few college taught and based radicals on gender construction can demand all kinds of things that have very little to do with reality.
Also as a gay man I find that something happens (like a Christian fundamentalist gets whacked at a pride parade) and suddenly all gay people are responsible.
Let's not generalize and blame all transgendered people.
Only a very small number of radical people really want to overthrow gender, and what's the point of being transgender if there is no more gender?
On the other hand, female sport should be given more recognition.
I was at a seminar a while back, and it was mentioned that the male rugby team was performing very badly.
Meanwhile the women's rugby team was winning all the time, and they didn't get any recognition whatsoever!
edit on 14-8-2013 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)
reply to post by Rodinus
Does this law apply to private elite-class schools or just pulblic schools?
Does this law apply to private elite-class schools or just pulblic schools?
Originally posted by Granite
reply to post by Rodinus
Does this law apply to private elite-class schools or just pulblic schools?
I came from a quite poor hard working, working class family and only ever went to public school... there is your answer Granite.
Kindest respects
Rodinus
reply to post by Rodinus
X's and Y's determine gender, not some emotionally confused kid that thinks they are something they are not.
Lmao, no in California, a boy can claim to be a girl and stroll on into the female bathroom and locker room. If i was a parent in a school that did that, I would hire a lawyer to request an injunction until an appeal could be heard.
Ridiculous.
X's and Y's determine gender, not some emotionally confused kid that thinks they are something they are not.
Lmao, no in California, a boy can claim to be a girl and stroll on into the female bathroom and locker room. If i was a parent in a school that did that, I would hire a lawyer to request an injunction until an appeal could be heard.
Ridiculous.
I support people with PHYSICAL conditions like hermaphroditism and such.
But transgender is a gray area for me. Essentially someone is saying they 'feel' like they are another gender.
This is not a transsexual, hermaphrodite, or natural eunuch. It is someone who is fully physically one gender but 'identifies' as another.
Um... no. As I said before, feeling like a tree does not make me one. No one should have to accommodate your 'feeling.'
I feel bad for the students who will feel uncomfortable having someone of the opposite gender sharing their showers and bathrooms.
It sucks for those who may be transgendered and confused- I DO feel for them. However, the expression 'suck it up, buttercup' comes to mind. We just cannot revolve our world around special interest cases at the expense of society.
And I do foresee bullying coming out of this. A girl who identifies as a boy in a male locker room after football practice is going to have a challenge ahead. I don't see this being pretty.
But transgender is a gray area for me. Essentially someone is saying they 'feel' like they are another gender.
This is not a transsexual, hermaphrodite, or natural eunuch. It is someone who is fully physically one gender but 'identifies' as another.
Um... no. As I said before, feeling like a tree does not make me one. No one should have to accommodate your 'feeling.'
I feel bad for the students who will feel uncomfortable having someone of the opposite gender sharing their showers and bathrooms.
It sucks for those who may be transgendered and confused- I DO feel for them. However, the expression 'suck it up, buttercup' comes to mind. We just cannot revolve our world around special interest cases at the expense of society.
And I do foresee bullying coming out of this. A girl who identifies as a boy in a male locker room after football practice is going to have a challenge ahead. I don't see this being pretty.
reply to post by Rodinus
Unfortunately there are going to be a lot of problems...for instance transgender children using the rest room and locker rooms.
A boy born in a girls body...may want to use the boy's restroom and locker room...there will be heterosexual boys who will not care about the transgender child...and will taunt, abuse and possibly physically attack the transgender child; and visa-versa girls can be cruel too.
There are going to be parents of the heterosexual children who will not want the transgender children to be around their own.
My heart goes out to the transgender children and their parents.
Unfortunately there are going to be a lot of problems...for instance transgender children using the rest room and locker rooms.
A boy born in a girls body...may want to use the boy's restroom and locker room...there will be heterosexual boys who will not care about the transgender child...and will taunt, abuse and possibly physically attack the transgender child; and visa-versa girls can be cruel too.
There are going to be parents of the heterosexual children who will not want the transgender children to be around their own.
My heart goes out to the transgender children and their parents.
Originally posted by deadeyedick
What rights did they win? Surely they are not gong to make it ok for a penis to be in girls bathroom.
Yes, basically they are going to make an entire locker room full of girls uncomfortable in order to avoid making ONE male uncomfortable.
Yea, lol.. left logic at its finest..
Originally posted by Sharingan
Originally posted by deadeyedick
What rights did they win? Surely they are not gong to make it ok for a penis to be in girls bathroom.
Yes, basically they are going to make an entire locker room full of girls uncomfortable in order to avoid making ONE male uncomfortable.
Yea, lol.. left logic at its finest..
And in the opposite direction, is it even safe to put a girl that feels like she's a boy, in a locker room, or bathroom, full of boys?
When they were discussing this on the news, they were even talking about elementary age children.
Whatever physical parts one has, should dictate what bathroom or locker room they use.
I can see a lot of horny boy's pretending to be confused so they can check out the girls this will only lead to more problems in the school.
People try to make this a complicated issue.
I have no idea how people can think genitalia is something that is sooo complicated. The only grey area imho are hermaphrodites, whom normally lean one way or the other.
I do not care how you feel, just as most people do not care how I feel. You have a reproductive organ. It is not hard to differentiate. Once you get that changed sure feel free to use the other facilities. Until then you can cry in a corner about how mean the world is.
How one feels does not warp reality around them. You can feel like a dog, cat, plane, tree, manbearpig all you want. It does not make you one.
I have no idea how people can think genitalia is something that is sooo complicated. The only grey area imho are hermaphrodites, whom normally lean one way or the other.
I do not care how you feel, just as most people do not care how I feel. You have a reproductive organ. It is not hard to differentiate. Once you get that changed sure feel free to use the other facilities. Until then you can cry in a corner about how mean the world is.
How one feels does not warp reality around them. You can feel like a dog, cat, plane, tree, manbearpig all you want. It does not make you one.
Originally posted by Rodinus
Yes my thread is another "Yay i am glad type of post"... and i am happy and proud to have posted this news about the tolerance that is lacking in certain parts of our sad sad world!
Your happiness is so contagious. I feel happy too now that finally this "problem" has found a solution. Yes we have some hundreds of people being murdered in Egypt as we speak, the same in Syria, we still have millions die from hunger and sickness world wide, most of them kids but that can wait. At least we did find a solution for a more imminent issue.
Yey to all TG. Now the world is a better place...
Originally posted by Telos
Originally posted by Rodinus
Yes my thread is another "Yay i am glad type of post"... and i am happy and proud to have posted this news about the tolerance that is lacking in certain parts of our sad sad world!
Your happiness is so contagious. I feel happy too now that finally this "problem" has found a solution. Yes we have some hundreds of people being murdered in Egypt as we speak, the same in Syria, we still have millions die from hunger and sickness world wide, most of them kids but that can wait. At least we did find a solution for a more imminent issue.
Yey to all TG. Now the world is a better place...
Your sarcasm is understood...
Telos, tell me and give a solution to us and to the powers that be in order to rid the world of all the sad and sickening things that go on around us for which us simple citizens have no control over?
If someone cannot create a thread about something at least a little bit positive without causing bitter remarks then how sad this world more and more...
Tolerance seems such a rare thing nowadays!
Rodinus
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