Transgender-students win rights... A first in the USA...?

Hi Folks,

Lets see if you folks have had enough... complaining and whining about your current or past political situation and can have another type of discussion for once... i SERIOUSLY doubt this though and expect this thread to die an early death... prove me wrong... and show the rest of the world here on ATS that certain people out here on ATS have hearts,feelings and tolerance in regards to others and that for once you can have a positive outlook on life in general?

Before heading on with this thread, a little description of what Transgender means according to Wiki... (waiting for the flamers saying that Wiki is not a reliable source*)... if you flame, please may i suggest and remind you that you back up with certitude, proof and concrete evidence your flame throwing!?) :

Transgender is the state of one's gender identity (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's assigned sex (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).

Transgender does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to "conventional" notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."

"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."

"Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

Wiki link here :

en.wikipedia.org...

I am sure that our fellow Transgender or LGBT ATS members can also contribute to the description too (it would be wonderful to hear from you girls and boys?)

Not being a TG or LGBT myself, just a married hetero guy with my own kids bla bla bla... (I feel the need to justify this in case i have some nutcase, TROLL or disagreable person posting unsavoury comments saying that i am all for it because of my gender...)

I could not help but have admiration and respect for the Democratic Governor Jerry Brown who announced on Monday that he had signed AB1266, which also will allow transgender students to choose whether they want to play boys' or girls' sports... What a great contribution to educating the general public to the word and actual actions of TOLERANCE.

This new law gives all students the right "to participate in sex-segregated programs, activities and facilities" based on their self-perception and regardless of their birth gender.

Link here :

www.news.com.au...

Supporters said it will help reduce bullying and discrimination against transgender students. It comes as the families of transgender students have been waging local battles with school districts across the country over what bathrooms and locker rooms their children can use, disagreements that have sometimes landed in court.

May i take my invisible hat off, (i look crap in a hat so Mrs R says!) and i hope that this is just not another way of getting polls from you guys over there in the US.

Your thoughts and comments Girls and Boys?

Kindest respects

Rodinus

reply to post by Rodinus
I think it's great! If transgender kids want to play sports it just seems natural that they would want to play on the same team as those whom they identify with gender wise. I can see some problems arising out of it though.

When I was a teen and through my early twenties I played fast pitch softball. To keep in shape during the off season I played on an all men's slow pitch softball team. I had to work twice as hard as any man to prove my talent and for the guys to treat me as a regular team mate instead of like a "little lady". It wasn't easy and I worked my tail off to be accepted as "one of the guys". I imagine it will be even harder for a girl who gender identifies as male to fit in with a team of all guys due to bullying that might occur as well.

I see problems with males who identify as females playing on an all girl's team as well- girl's can be nasty little creatures to those of their own sex- just imagine what they might do to one who is transgender. Also one must consider how other males will treat a male playing on a female team- it could get very ugly.

I applaud the move but I sincerely hope personnel and protocols have been put in place to deal with issues of bullying that will absolutely occur. These kids have won a hard fought right and I'd hate to see them continue suffering due to lack of adult intervention.

It also lets them go in whatever bathroom they want.

Originally posted by tehdouglas
It also lets them go in whatever bathroom they want.

Is there a double meaning in your post Teh?

Kindest respects

Rod

reply to post by Rodinus


Good deal, just because someone is transgendered doesn't mean they should be hidden, shunned or kept out of sports or any other childhood activity.

The only problem I can see arising from it is in how they figure out the locker room situation. That might be a bit tricky, but I am sure they would figure out something.

Originally posted by Darkblade71
reply to post by Rodinus

 

Good deal, just because someone is transgendered doesn't mean they should be hidden, shunned or kept out of sports or any other childhood activity.

The only problem I can see arising from it is in how they figure out the locker room situation. That might be a bit tricky, but I am sure they would figure out something.

Personally, a locker room is a locker room and will always stay so...

A person who is Transgender, should have the right to say so (as should any person who is "different" from the accepted socio "norm" so to speak.

Afterwards, it is up to each and every head of whatever 'estabishment" to take the correct and humane decision to adapt to each and every persons differences.

Warmest respects

Rod

What rights did they win? Surely they are not gong to make it ok for a penis to be in girls bathroom.

Originally posted by deadeyedick
What rights did they win? Surely they are not gong to make it ok for a penis to be in girls bathroom.

Short answer that i am sure not many of our international members might not understand Dead... could you elaborate in more detail please if possible?

Kindest respects

Rodinus

What's not clear? What about the girls in the locker room? Should they be forced to tolerate a male born students in their showers? Even if some of them feel extreme discomfort?

Also, I fail to see how this will reduce bullying in any way.

Originally posted by InstantRemedy

Also, I fail to see how this will reduce bullying in any way.

edit on 14-8-2013 by InstantRemedy because: (no reason given)

In what way do you fail to see that this will reduce bullying?

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Originally posted by Rodinus
In what way do you fail to see that this will reduce bullying?

I already said, I fail to see how this will reduce bullying in any way. Can you find a realistic reason as to how this will reduce bullying? Without even debating whether this law is right or wrong. I just can't seem to find any benefit from it in the form of reducing of bullying.
I got several scenarios in my mind as to how this will even increase bullying, but do take the stage please.

Also, why did you ignore the other part of my post? I'll repeat:
What about the girls in the locker room? Should they be forced to tolerate a male born student in their showers? Even if some of them feel extreme discomfort?

Well this puts us one set of breast implants away from chaos. We get lost in the confusion. Bottom line if you are in school grounds you should never be put alone in a room of people you can inseminate or vise versa.

Originally posted by InstantRemedy

Originally posted by Rodinus
In what way do you fail to see that this will reduce bullying?

I already said, I fail to see how this will reduce bullying in any way. Can you find a realistic reason as to how this will reduce bullying? Without even debating whether this law is right or wrong. I just can't seem to find any benefit from it in the form of reducing of bullying.
I got several scenarios in my mind as to how this will even increase bullying, but do take the stage please.

Also, why did you ignore the other part of my post? I'll repeat:
What about the girls in the locker room? Should they be forced to tolerate a male born student in their showers? Even if some of them feel extreme discomfort?

edit on 14-8-2013 by InstantRemedy because: (no reason given)

That is progressivism for you. Pander to one group but ignore discomfort or privacy issues for another group because they are just "bigots."

Originally posted by InstantRemedy

Originally posted by Rodinus
In what way do you fail to see that this will reduce bullying?

I already said, I fail to see how this will reduce bullying in any way. Can you find a realistic reason as to how this will reduce bullying? Without even debating whether this law is right or wrong. I just can't seem to find any benefit from it in the form of reducing of bullying.
I got several scenarios in my mind as to how this will even increase bullying, but do take the stage please.

Also, why did you ignore the other part of my post? I'll repeat:
What about the girls in the locker room? Should they be forced to tolerate a male born student in their showers? Even if some of them feel extreme discomfort?

edit on 14-8-2013 by InstantRemedy because: (no reason given)

Hi Instant,

Thanks for your reply...

Firstly, i did not ignore to reply to the other part of your post as i am not here to have an argument with anyone in particular. I replied to part of your post... but i am sure someone else WILL reply to the "other" part of your post so to speak?

Secondly... i created this thread to show people how happy i am that certain people are being tolerant, i did not create this post to have a debate... otherwise i would have posted in the debate forum...

Kindest respects

Rodinus

Um. So is this thread supposed to be compiled of one after another of "yay, i'm glad" posts? No debate?
I haven't even attacked anyone, just asked a simple question.

Yes, I'm sure the Transgender students are filled with joy. But what about the people who are caught in the middle? Are they doomed to be labeled bigots and intolerant fools if they find the idea of a male in their shower to be uncomfortable?

With all due respect I think anyone should expect various opinions while making a thread, otherwise this forum will become awfully dull and not really a forum. Just saying.

reply to post by NavyDoc


Nice hyperbole.

Anyway... the bill does specifically state that:

(f) A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

Link

So while I'm all for transgender students being able to participate in school activities as the gender they identify with, I can see a problem arising with bathrooms and locker rooms. What's to keep non transgenders from claiming they identify as the opposite sex in order to gain access to naked girls/boys? Also I can't with certainty claim that a person with a penis in the ladies locker room at the gym wouldn't make me uncomfortable, I think I would be okay but I'm not 100% sure simply because this is how Americans are, we have always kept the genders separate... However I can see counter arguments to my own feelings, once upon a time whites didn't feel comfortable even sharing a water fountain with blacks we mostly got over that one so maybe we can get over this too... I don't know.

Overall though I'm happy that someone recognized that transgender people are entitled to liberty too.

Well, I'm not transgender but just a gay male.

I have very mixed feelings about this, but it would depend how the reality looks at grass-roots level.

As for choosing sports and activities - I'm for it.
I wasted hours of my primary schooling supposedly learning woodwork, which I couldn't do and had no interest in doing.
I wish I could have that time back (although there was also a lot of time just to mess about).
Meanwhile, I wished I learnt how to do needlework, but that was only for girls.

I also hated cricket, rugby and soccer.
During breaks I later openly played netball with the girls, and I found it very swan-like and graceful.
We didn't know basketball then at all in SA.

I hated having to take my top off and was quite shy, although looking at old pics now, I wasn't that ugly at all.

If the school has open showers I wouldn't be comfortable in the locker room with a member of the opposite sex.
If it has private stalls, then maybe it wouldn't be a big issue.
I've never had a situation like that, so maybe they might be accepted in the team or not.
I think both sexes have rights too, and separate spaces should be available for people who haven't transitioned fully or feel confused.

Yeah, I know people are going to say you were a gay male and checked out everybody in the locker-room.
Not true - in reality a total fallacy.
Even if I did occasionally, I wasn't the only one, and I never made people feel uncomfortable.
It was all a lot of banter too.

So, netball with the girls - yes.
Showering with the girls as a boy?
Definitely not.
I wonder why sometimes, since I wasn't attracted to them?
I do recall that their judgements of male bodies was very important, and they were harsh enough with what was visible when fully clothed!

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by NavyDoc

 

Nice hyperbole.

Anyway... the bill does specifically state that:

(f) A pupil shall be permitted to participate in sex-segregated school programs and activities, including athletic teams and competitions, and use facilities consistent with his or her gender identity, irrespective of the gender listed on the pupil’s records.

Link

So while I'm all for transgender students being able to participate in school activities as the gender they identify with, I can see a problem arising with bathrooms and locker rooms. What's to keep non transgenders from claiming they identify as the opposite sex in order to gain access to naked girls/boys? Also I can't with certainty claim that a person with a penis in the ladies locker room at the gym wouldn't make me uncomfortable, I think I would be okay but I'm not 100% sure simply because this is how Americans are, we have always kept the genders separate... However I can see counter arguments to my own feelings, once upon a time whites didn't feel comfortable even sharing a water fountain with blacks we mostly got over that one so maybe we can get over this too... I don't know.

Overall though I'm happy that someone recognized that transgender people are entitled to liberty too.

edit on 14-8-2013 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

Not hyperbole at all, but just an observation based on a pattern.

Why should one person's comfort and privacy be violated to accommodate another person's issue? In our PC society, one groups needs are often discarded to accommodate the latest "special class."

As for sports, there is a reason why there a different gender sports due to differences in physical and athletic abilities. Sure, it may make a transgender male feel special to play on a girl's team, but is it fair to the female athletes who have someone who has an advantage due to gender related strength differences on the team? Why is his need to feel fulfilled more important than the female athletes around him?

Well, if genitalia no longer means anything, lets just make all activities, public restrooms and showers co-ed. As far as rape situations... just implement the death penalty for all first degree violations.

By fully integrating both genders, we can "estrogenize" the males and "testosteronate" the females until we can all just asexually reproduce...or not reproduce at all.

We've already compromised/destroyed traditional family roles through the feminist movement. Why not take it to the next level?

Originally posted by InstantRemedy
Um. So is this thread supposed to be compiled of one after another of "yay, i'm glad" posts? No debate?
I haven't even attacked anyone, just asked a simple question.

Yes, I'm sure the Transgender students are filled with joy. But what about the people who are caught in the middle? Are they doomed to be labeled bigots and intolerant fools if they find the idea of a male in their shower to be uncomfortable?

With all due respect I think anyone should expect various opinions while making a thread, otherwise this forum will become awfully dull and not really a forum. Just saying.

Your opinon is agreed with and respected Instant...

Yes my thread is another "Yay i am glad type of post"... and i am happy and proud to have posted this news about the tolerance that is lacking in certain parts of our sad sad world!

I understand that you asked a question but i did not wish to answer it as i feel uncapable of doing so and also do not have the personal time... (so maybe someone else can answer for me if possible?)

So... the people in the middle are victims now? This is the question that you have asked... what would be your response?

Personally i would try to be understanding and take into consideration the environmental surroundings (people, religion etc etc...) before coming up with a "hopefully" respectful decision that i would ask everyone to have their opinions about before applying?

Ps. How many TG students are there compared to "Normal" students in your eyes... AND... lets just say that the TG student has a handicap and is forced to live in a wheelchair or is blind, deaf or cannot speak???

I know that being TG is not a handicap 'normally speaking"... but maybe for some people that are TG this "could" be a handicap?... are you capable of putting yourself in a handicapped persons role?

If you are not "NORMAL" so to speak... should you be segregated???

Kindest respects

Rodinus