What is the last lie of the "devil"?

If the work of Jesus on the cross is the resolution and protection against any "predation" by powers and principalities of the prince of darkness, then the last lie would have something to do with that, either that it's meaningless, or did not happen ie: no historical Jesus and no cross, or, if so, nothing to see there please move along..

Which leads me to ponder over the true nature of the cross, not simply as it relates to personal salvation, but as a power capable of rendering Satan or the devil, powerless, while crashing the gates of hell.

Personally I think the cross needs to be understood within an all-inclusive context, in which case, where's this devil and his hell..?

The last lie might also involve the idea that God is in some way dependent on the existence of the devil and needs a devil, as if evil is necessary to somehow justify goodness and righteousness.

I think that the devil tells sick jokes, but that God tells good one's at the expense of the devil, so that we can safely laugh at the devil within.

It's so complicated, and from what I can tell unnecessary, to even have a devil in the first place. Maybe it's time to deep-six the devil and open ourselves up to the light of life, truth, beauty, justice, and mercy.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Personally I think the cross needs to be understood within an all-inclusive context, in which case, where's this devil and his hell..?

In that case, he's right where God is. In the space between shame and shamelessness.

It's so complicated, and from what I can tell unnecessary, to even have a devil in the first place. Maybe it's time to deep-six the devil and open ourselves up to the light of life, truth, beauty, justice, and mercy.

That would be great!

But as long as we are in the realm of duality, we can't experience the Divine without facing the Dark Night of the Soul afterwards. I say that based on both scholarship and personal experience.

"The “Dark Night of the Soul,” once fully established, is seldom lit by visions or made homely by voices. It is of the essence of its miseries that the once-possessed power of orison or contemplation now seems wholly lost. The self is tossed back from its hard-won point of vantage. Impotence, blankness, solitude, are the epithets by which those immersed in this dark fire of purification describe their pains. It is this episode in the life-history of the mystic type to which we have now come.

Each great step forward will entail lassitude and exhaustion for that mental machinery which he has pressed unto service and probably overworked. When the higher centers have been submitted to the continuous strain of a developed illuminated life, with its accompanying periods of intense fervor, lucidity, deep contemplation—perhaps of visionary and auditive phenomena—the swing-back into the negative state occurs almost of necessity."

-Evelyn Underhill

reply to post by BlueMule


"Dark night of the soul"? Yeah, been there done that got the t-shirt, and if possible I would like to spare others the same experience.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


And in "deep sixing" the devil into the abyss which means "oblivion", the chains that bind him and double-bind him are, I believe, chains of reason, and logic.

Then, and only then is it safe to laugh at the devil, and take on responsibility for the devil that lurks in the depths of the human heart and there process and distinguish it until it dissolves in the giggles of the recovered child within who was being held ransom to the lowest bidder ie: for no reason.

Thus, certain Christians who would prefer to argue in FAVOR of the continued existence of the devil as an external force or entity are working at cross purposes with God's revealed plan.

Best Regards,

NAM

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by BlueMule

 

"Dark night of the soul"? Yeah, been there done that got the t-shirt, and if possible I would like to spare others the same experience.

That's a noble sentiment but no one can be spared that experience. It's part of the process.

reply to post by BlueMule

Most do not have what it takes to go through that in this life and are therefore going to be subjected to a very harrowing ordeal in and through the bardos where from what I understand, largely from NDE's, they can get lost or just shut down losing all hope in the darkness of the evil one, which is not a good thing and something that I cannot fathom how God would not take responsibility for, which I am convinced he has through the cross of Jesus.

When my last DNOTS (dark night of the soul) reached it's conclusion, I actually heard a faint whisper say in my mind "I am proud of you, son."

Therefore, if anything was accomplished, because we're all in this thing together, then indeed, surely, others can be spared the ordeal, which many, even if they go into it are often unable to overcome, getting "crushed" by the experience. Mental hospitals are surely filled with such people who end up with Schizophrenia, which is as much a spiritual disorder involving the DNOTS as it is a mental one, or a brain chemistry issue, imo. In Jesus' day they were called demon possessed and he healed them and sent the demon or devil fleeing.

It's very complex, this issue and these ideas - so where is the utter simplicity on the far side of complexity for which we would give our right arm, or perhaps I should say, our left arm, to find? And, when we find it, which all who seek, do, tell me, where is the devil or hell in that domain of absolute liberation?

Best Regards,

NAM

P.S.

Originally posted by BlueMule
In that case, he's right where God is. In the space between shame and shamelessness.

That's a lie, imho. In God who is goodness and love, there is no darkness, no shame, and God has no part with and makes no compromises with evil or if there's a devil, the evil one, and at some level that might be part of the problem, the irreconcilable nature of evil and the devil. Therefore what one among us does to resolve these issues, just like Jesus they do it for all people everywhere and for all time.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Most do not have what it takes to go through that in this life and are therefore going to be subjected to a very harrowing ordeal in and through the bardos where from what I understand, largely from NDE's, they can get lost or just shut down losing all hope in the darkness of the evil one, which is not a good thing and something that I cannot fathom how God would not take responsibility for, which I am convinced he has through the cross of Jesus.

Then they will go through it in another life. Or the life after that. Or after that. A million lifetimes is no big deal to eternity.

That's a lie, imho. In God who is goodness and love, there is no darkness, no shame, and God has no part with and makes no compromises with evil or if there's a devil, the evil one, and at some level that might be part of the problem, the irreconcilable nature of evil and the devil. Therefore what one among us does to resolve these issues, just like Jesus they do it for all people everywhere and for all time.

In God there is no shame, and no shamelessness. These are a pair of opposites. God transcends pairs of opposites, hence to say that God is in the liminal space between the two is not a lie.

His disciples said, "When will you be shown forth to us and when shall we behold you?" Jesus said, "When you strip naked without being ashamed, and take your garments and put them under your feet like little children and tread upon them, then [you] will see the child of the living. And you will not be afraid."

-Gospel of Thomas

Whatever the work of the Cross was, it did not free us from the painful DNoTS.

IMO, the Work of the Cross is about transcending pairs of opposites. Such as light and dark, shame and shamelessness. So if you want to experience light, you must experience dark.

Or transcend them both.

reply to post by BlueMule

As to "lie" i meant this idea that the devil is in the same domain as God, sharing the same space.

I think it comes down to the domain of all possibility, which is freedom, and OTOH, of constraint or bondage as a domain of no possibility. Therefore, the domain of hell or of the devil cannot be sustained and eventually goes down the drain into the abyss (oblivion).

Your right though that people cannot be spared the consequence of their life and it's unfolding story and journey, and that at some point the wind and the rains will blow against our "house", like a test and a rite of passage.

You are very wise and insightful.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by BlueMule

 

As to "lie" i meant this idea that the devil is in the same domain as God, sharing the same space.

In an all-inclusive context, as you specified, they would. Good and evil is a pair of opposites to be transcended.

You are very wise and insightful.

Not I, but the Christ in me.

The last lie of the devil would be for him to convince us he did exsist.

He is a coward, that's why he tricked us into believing he didn't.

Wi-fi

reply to post by NewAgeMan


your right about paradoxes,

This inquiry either opens up a can of worms, or proves there are no worms to begin with, and no can I'm not sure will have to try to reason this out, it's pretty complex we need Plato here or Socrates, or even Jesus to help us resolve it, and maybe dissolve the "devil", in a gale of laughter at some sort of epiphany, it's possible..

we are to be humble,
we are to be generous,
we are to work for the good of all,
we are to love the poor,
we are to be meek,
and not seek material reward,
not to seek power and fame for our deeds.

be the change you wish to see in the world,

but its interesting that if you really followed the intent of this message,
some will look at you like you are "too good to be true"
or planning some great deception, because their experience is telling them people dont do things "just for love",

and this can be very hard to over come,

those with love in their heart can see it, others who have known no love, will be hostile

to me people are so used to bad news, they suspect good news as being "too good to be true"

and therefore the most powerful lie is when you don't believe your eyes,
and close your heart.

xploder

reply to post by BlueMule


Then God and man have a lot of work to do..

Reminds me a LOT of the happy ending towards the end of The Book of Revelation, where the free flowing living water freely offered by the Spirit and the Bride may be thought of as the non-dual flow of life itself as it really is and was meant to be as conceived from the very beginning.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Then God and man have a lot of work to do..

Reminds me a LOT of the happy ending towards the end of The Book of Revelation, where the free flowing living water freely offered by the Spirit and the Bride may be thought of as the non-dual flow of life itself as it really is and was meant to be as conceived from the very beginning.

Nice!

Maybe in the age of Aquarius things will be different. Maybe during certain ages there is no DNoTS. There's always hope!

reply to post by BlueMule

Not sure we're on the cusp of a new "Golden Age" any time soon, but then again such a thing, when it happens, will be sudden and dramatic, like a historical bifurcation.

My recently published book "The Spiritual Gift of Madness: The Failure of Psychiatry and the Rise of the Mad Pride Movement" is based upon an unusual proposition, which is at the heart of the conviction that inspires the book: Many of those persons who have been labeled "mentally ill" by the psychiatric system -- whom I prefer to call mad persons -- have had spiritual experiences or visions, often messianic, and thus they have an important contribution to make to the redemption of humanity, to the redemption of the earth. Or to put it in other words, many of them could be the prophets or midwives of the new age, the messianic age. I cannot help but recall the often repeated words of the first mad person I ever met (this was during my college years, decades ago): "I am the mother of the new messianic age."

Messianism originated in the Western world with Judaism. Martin Buber, generally considered the greatest Jewish philosopher of the 20th century, believed messianism was Judaism's "most profoundly original idea" (Lowy 47-70) The "coming of the Messiah," understood literally by Jewish people for centuries, was for Buber, a non-observant but pious Jew and a socialist, a metaphor for the advent of messianic age, to be brought about by God and man. As Buber saw it messianism was Judaism's gift to humanity

Eugen Rosenstock-Huessey, a Christian philosopher (a Jewish convert) and contemporary of Buber's, described the emergence of the messianic sensibility, "Unlike other tribal or imperial people the Jews broke with the narrative that life and death, peace and war were inevitable cycles. Instead of merely longing for a lost golden age, they staked their entire existence on a future reign of righteousness and peace" (Cristuado 247). The historian of religion Mircea Eliade has noted that human beings from the beginning of history have been haunted by the mythical remembrance of a pre-historical happiness, a golden age -- thus we harbor an abiding nostalgia for paradise. Judaism was the first religion to convert this nostalgia into the belief that this mythical paradise will be realized in history as the Kingdom of God on earth. History is the realm of redemption.

According to messianic thinkers, both Jewish and Christian, our state of conflict with the world, our mortality and suffering is not a permanent human condition but is a result of our historical estrangement from God. The Kingdom of God, the reunion of God and humanity, is the remedy: "For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Isaiah 11:9). Buber emphasized that this was not a matter of gradual progress but something "sudden and immense" (Lowy 52). In Isaiah God says, "I create new heavens and a new earth." The long awaited age of peace and happiness is called the "day without evening" in Eastern Christianity, thus connoting a state of immortality. Even in the Indian Vedas we find evidence of the messianic longing in the symbol of a new beginning also connoting immortality, "the eternal dawn." The messianic age is universally described as the union of heaven and earth.

More than any other religious Jewish thinker, Buber placed the active participation of human beings -- as God's partners -- at the heart of messianism. "God has no wish for any other means of perfecting his creation than by our help. He will not reveal his Kingdom until we have laid its foundations" (Farber 90). In the early 1920s Buber stated, "We are living in an unsaved world, and we are waiting for redemption in which we have been called upon to participate in a most unfathomable way" (Lowy 53). Buber regarded Jesus as a great Jewish prophet but not the messiah -- because we have not been saved. Christians think Jesus will come again to usher in the Kingdom of God, and esoteric Christians like Carl Jung (Pinchbeck 2007) think those in whom the Christ consciousness is born will complete Jesus' work. In any case although Buber's interpretation of Christianity is questionable, some of his comments still ring true -- we are living in an unsaved world, and we are still longing for redemption.

In 1926 Buber wrote that the Jewish people were "the human community" that is the carrier of "the messianic expectation . . . this belief in the still-to-be-accomplished . . . world redemption" (Lowy 53). But today it is not the Jews who hold this expectation. Sadly Jews betrayed their claim to be the messianic people when they substituted the tribalist project of the creation of the Jewish state of Israel for the universal reign of peace and justice (Farber, 2005).

Today it is the mad who are the carriers of the messianic expectation. Not all of them, probably not most of them, but some of them, many of them. I believe that those among the mad who embrace their madness and proudly affirm it, those who cherish their messianic visions and mystical experiences, will be the leaders of the messianic transformation of which humanity has dreamed for centuries. This is why I am advocating a new "third wing," a messianic wing of the Mad Pride movement.

from: Reality Sandwich

www.realitysandwich.com..., by Seth Farber

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Today it is the mad who are the carriers of the messianic expectation. Not all of them, probably not most of them, but some of them, many of them. I believe that those among the mad who embrace their madness and proudly affirm it, those who cherish their messianic visions and mystical experiences, will be the leaders of the messianic transformation of which humanity has dreamed for centuries. This is why I am advocating a new "third wing," a messianic wing of the Mad Pride movement.

That's the most rediculously insane idea ever..... Count me in lol.

Originally posted by Wifibrains
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Today it is the mad who are the carriers of the messianic expectation. Not all of them, probably not most of them, but some of them, many of them. I believe that those among the mad who embrace their madness and proudly affirm it, those who cherish their messianic visions and mystical experiences, will be the leaders of the messianic transformation of which humanity has dreamed for centuries. This is why I am advocating a new "third wing," a messianic wing of the Mad Pride movement.

That's the most rediculously insane idea ever..... Count me in lol.

Ah..excellent! The more the merrier, unto an OmegaPoint of the Cosmogenesis of the Noosphere!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Yeah, I made a thread about that a while back.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's just crazy enough to work, and so am I. Count me in, brothers!

I bet the last lie of the devil was convincing one that being spiritual from an armchair is possible. Look at all the knowledge we've acquired in this last page alone:

I think it comes down to the domain of all possibility, which is freedom, and OTOH, of constraint or bondage as a domain of no possibility. Therefore, the domain of hell or of the devil cannot be sustained and eventually goes down the drain into the abyss (oblivion).

"The “Dark Night of the Soul,” once fully established, is seldom lit by visions or made homely by voices. It is of the essence of its miseries that the once-possessed power of orison or contemplation now seems wholly lost. The self is tossed back from its hard-won point of vantage. Impotence, blankness, solitude, are the epithets by which those immersed in this dark fire of purification describe their pains. It is this episode in the life-history of the mystic type to which we have now come.

And in "deep sixing" the devil into the abyss which means "oblivion", the chains that bind him and double-bind him are, I believe, chains of reason, and logic.

When my last DNOTS (dark night of the soul) reached it's conclusion, I actually heard a faint whisper say in my mind "I am proud of you, son."

In that case, he's right where God is. In the space between shame and shamelessness.

Please continue. I love a good gibberish battle to see who comes out on top as the most profound. I will even award a winner.

reply to post by BlueMule

Very good, another one!

I think we must embrace it's inevitability, relative to the learning experience of the DNoTS(s), and recognize that He (Christ) comes on the clouds of the heavens from East to West even as the world turns where what goes up must also come back down again (ascending and descending).

In this regard, the more literalist, fundamentalist interpretations of evangelical Christianity are the most UNhelpful, as is the RCC's declaration that any effort to Immanentize the Eschaton is a heresy, when in truth the real commission of Jesus Christ is that of what might be thought of as a participatory eschatology.

Let no child of God be left behind..

The last lie of the Devil is the implication that God cares. Anybody with any sense and even those without a lot of it, if they live long enough, understands that even if there is such a thing/person/being as God, it is completely indifferent to us and our experience of life.

So the Devil creates false hope, then takes it away. Classic Devil.