More Guns, Equal, Less Gun Crime: FACT!!

reply to post by Maxatoria


NO.

Since 1934 Gun control and subsequent laws that have been an abject failure.

Can't legislate human behavior only punish only after the fact, and punish those who do nothing wrong.

I do not agree with any gun control ideology.

Shall not be infringed is crystal clear.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Cabin

 

Crime decrease in the recent decades is normal in every other developed country, with the increase in life quality crime rates decrease. Also the developments in security, police force play a lot of role. Higher chance of getting caught increases the risk in going to crime, so it also plays some role in lower crime rates.

Violent crime rates in UK have been exploding. They really gained steam since the strict gun control measures in 1988. I guess either you missed those posts on page one or are choosing to ignore them.

What criminals need Guns in the UK when they can use a sharp knife or machette......?

Chief Constable Jon Murphy, from the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), said: "While incidents in violence against the person overall fell, a continued cause for concern was the increase in pickpocketing, robbery, and robbery with knives.

Knifepoint robberies rise by 10%, crime figures show

reply to post by neo96


I meant it as an experiment to prove the fact beyond doubt..that if two places of equal size etc and the only difference is that on one hand you have people running around with fully automatic 50cals and DU rounds and the other side you need a permit to have a spud gun (taking the proverbial on both sides there) lets see how it goes, and since i'd guess you're right anyway its just proving the point with some hard numbers and you can relax and just point to the numbers and relax

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by moonrunner

 

The most important thing to do when're scented with any server or report is to ask who paid for it to be done...

And this is in favour of who?

Maybe you’d believe the figures provided by the US Department of Justice instead. After all, the DOJ is a department of the US federal government; the same federal government constantly seeking to limit the freedoms protected by the 2nd amendment of the US constitution.

Certainly the DOJ doesn’t like these numbers because these numbers don’t support their anti-gun agenda.

edit on 10-8-2013 by seabag because: (no reason given)

But that figure doesn't even support your argument, it shows that gun crime has gone up and down despite ownership steadily rising. There is nothing at all in that image to suggest higher gun ownership results in lower gun crime.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


The homicide reduction may be just due to increased surveillance. The NSA etc. have become more effective in identifying violent citizens.

Doubt very much it due to more gun owners.

More guns will only help fuel a civil war and domestic violence eventually. Nothing good will come out of it.

Originally posted by Cabin
so either Americans are naturally more violent or higher number of guns increases gun violence.
.

Take a walk down through the 'wrong' neighborhood in Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit or any of the other two or three dozen metropolitan areas with homicide rates anywhere from 2-10 times the national average, and you're going to find out real quick that its the former, at least in those areas.

The US is not the UK.. I suspect you could introduce US-style gun laws into the UK, and in 10 years, you would see little change in the UK homicide rate. For that matter, not all areas in the US are the same. Not even close. The truth is, there's very little problem with gun violence throughout most of the country, and that's why you see so much resistance to new gun laws. Most of the population isn't directly affected by it, and most people realize that its a problem that's largely concentrated in the major cities.

err... im from the UK, and i would like to add...

NO guns equals NO gun crime



peace

Originally posted by thePharaoh
err... im from the UK, and i would like to add...

NO guns equals NO gun crime



peace

We do have guns, and we do have gun crime

Granted not as much as America and i would never want the UK to develop a American attitude towards guns

However these statistics quite clearly show that more guns correlates to less gun crime in America

reply to post by GrandStrategy

But that figure doesn't even support your argument, it shows that gun crime has gone up and down despite ownership steadily rising. There is nothing at all in that image to suggest higher gun ownership results in lower gun crime.

Sure there is. Gun ownership continues to rise and violent crime continues to drop in America. In the other post it's clear to see that UK's violent crime rate climbed dramatically as gun regulations tightened in 88'. What all those charts clearly show is that in NO WAY do more guns equal more crime.

Guns aren't the ONLY factor with regard to rising or falling violent crime rates but they ARE a factor. More guns equals less crime. The OP has it right.

Originally posted by thePharaoh
err... im from the UK, and i would like to add...

NO guns equals NO gun crime



peace

You have both guns and gun crime....just not nearly as much as US.

UK violent crime stats clearly show that even with very few guns your countrymen know how to commit violent crime. You just do it in caveman fashion with fists, knives and clubs. Doing away with guns hasn't made your violent crime go away.

The thing I dislike most about the gun control debate is the blatant disregard of facts. If people want to hurt each other, guns are just the easiest way if they are available. If they are not available, violent crime rates tend to go up, and people just pick a new weapon. Or worse, the criminals just smuggle in the guns and do their thing anyway and law-abiding citizens have no reasonable way to protect themselves besides the 21 feet rule, which of course assumes everyone is carrying a knife.

Countries with gun bans tend to have higher violent crime rates than those that don't. Criminals always find ways to get guns in to continue doing their crimes. If the law-abiding citizens have no access to guns, they are at the mercy of gun-toting criminals. Besides all of this, the Second Amendment was devised to give protection to the American people from an oppressive government - not crime. That's just a bonus. Today, we still very much need the Second Amendment, as we will always need it. The moment it's gone is the moment any joe with enough wealth and power can make a grab Stalin-style and take over the country. Never mind the very real reports on drones being made for use right here in America for identification and observation purposes - but with lethal capabilities.

Both sides ignore facts, though. In the end, I'd rather be armed and ready than unarmed and at someone's mercy.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


It doesn't matter how much you state FACT, the agenda is to ban all guns. That is the political structure of socialist America.

You will never convince anti gun people, you're wasting your time. The argument will always be, "we'll I have the right to live without fear of being killed by YOUR GUNS". I will say somewhere in there you have material for a valid arguement, but you also have the right to live without being raped, robbed, assaulted, threatened etc....MY opinion on how to avoid these things, defend yourself. If you expect only cops/military have access to weapons and all the above crimes will stop, your crazy. Don't even get me started about an over bearing, tyrannical government. We will NEVER live in a utopia society. It's just not in humans nature.
How many peace officers are there versus civilians? If 5% of the population carried (legally and with good intent, I consider myself) there would be much less crime as there would be...200? 300% more protection. I'm not talking walking the streets looking for the bad guys (I.e. Zimmerman) just a good person, at the right place, at the right time. Even my wife knows this about me...if I saw a WOMAN in any danger, I WILL put my life on the line to make sure not ounce of harm would befall her.
People need to wise up, it's not the gun, take them away and the danger will continue. Guns will still be in the hands of bad guys. I have heard of gunsmiths that will hand make a fully automatic weapon and charge 10 grand or more for it. You don't even need a company like smith and Wesson. 3-d printing will even increase this in the future. Look at prisoners that are incarcerated...even under tight scrutiny, they will find ways to make weapons and kill...yes even a 1 round gun.

reply to post by CJCrawley


you are truly wrong the second amendment isn't all about protecting ourselves but rather each other from the rise of tyranny . if the government was ever to become unjust it is the peoples responsibility to remove it . that is the whole purpose in having an armed public . and this is the main reason so many in washington are scared to death of the second amendment it iis also why district of Columbia has some of the strictest gun control laws because they fear the public coming to get them for their crimes in the future

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
[...]
However these statistics quite clearly show that more guns correlates to less gun crime in America

Do they? That should be easy to prove either way, since it also means that in areas that have less than average citizens that own guns, the gun crime must be higher. And exorbitant in areas with no guns at all, should they exist. Might be interesting to check.

reply to post by Sirrurg


We don't have to look far to check... what the graphic does NOT show... is the evolution in Concealed Carry laws.

Conceal Carry has become law in 49 of the 50 states I believe... and is getting close to becoming law in Illinois. In the last 20 years, it has been a sea change. Now, street criminals, not to mention those doing home invasion, are taking increasing risks that the intended "victim" will be armed.

The other thing the graphic doesn't mention, that is at LEAST worthy of discussion... in the United States, the cities with the highest rates of gun crime, are the same cities that have the greatest restrictions on civilian gun ownership, especially (until recently) Washington D.C. and Chicago, IL.

Washington D.C. lost that argument. In the Heller case, the SCOTUS overturned the banning of guns in the homes of D.C. residents. Within the first 2 years... home invasions by criminals using guns were down over 50%.

Probably just a coincidence...

Originally posted by seabag

I bet if the citizens of Chicago were armed tomorrow we'd see an initial spike in gun violence followed by a decade or more of decreasing violent crime rates.

What I'm curious about is when the left and right are going to have a frank discussion about who is committing the VAST majority of gun crimes and where they are occurring at.

Oh wait, that'd be racist

Ive never heard of a school shooting here in OZ, No one has guns, you cant buy them, only farmers for wild pests,
Only gun crime comes from criminals or bikie gangs who buy them illigally most likely from american gun manufacurers.
Guns are too tempting and a quick anger release, if there is no guns around then that anger subsides and you rationalize that anger and clear your head.
That is why Men with guns in the house who argue with their family or wife decides to shoot the entire family then himself.
If their was no guns in the house he would be forced to punch a punching bag or calm himself down and rationalize his thoughts because he cant gets his anger out in a quickfire of a gun. He realizes these thoughts of harm were wrong as the adrenaline in his body subsides.

Originally posted by seabag
Violent crime rates in UK have been exploding. They really gained steam since the strict gun control measures in 1988. I guess either you missed those posts on page one or are choosing to ignore them.

Categorically untrue. They went up a bit over the last century but are falling faster than in any other western European country.

www.independent.co.uk...

Which kind of gives the lie to the "fact" proposed in the thread title.

Note that your graph is also designed to give a biased outlook by its design. A small fall in gun ownership and a small rise in crime are made to look precipitous by selectively small axes.

reply to post by Lipton

What I'm curious about is when the left and right are going to have a frank discussion about who is committing the VAST majority of gun crimes and where they are occurring at.

Oh wait, that'd be racist

Isn't it pretty obvious to everyone?

Look at the map that I posted (and you quoted). Those are all big urban areas that predominantly vote for democrats. We know what the demographics look like in those areas. It is what it is!!

By the way, those areas already have the strictest gun control laws in place. How's that working out?