More Guns, Equal, Less Gun Crime: FACT!!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

At the same time....xDISARMING people happens in a world dominated on the street by human predators. Strength is deterrence. Weakness invites attack. It's just that simple and anyone who has been on or around the streets will confirm the simplicity of life at that level. Removing a means of defense from LEGAL people, feeds weakness, hence....inviting predators to feed, which they quickly do. Right Chicago? Detroit?

Not only that but simply by virtue of excessive regulations and laws otherwise law-abiding harmless people will find themselves committing crimes of bureaucratic prohibitions.

Case and point: NY combat vet arrested for possession of 30 round magazines

Goes down in the stat books as a "gun crime".

I've looked at gun control for a long time and the fact is that crime is more dependent on demographics than gun ownership. Places like Detroit and Chicago have lots of crime because there's lots of people, lots of minorities, lots of poverty, etc. They will always have lots of crime as long as they don't fundamentally change, adding guns isn't going to change that.

On the other hand, there are places with gun control that don't have much crime like Vermont, so once again it's not because of gun control.

If we restrict guns enough, eventually the cost will rise enough that young people can't afford them even on the black market and that would help crime.

Chicago had it's gun ban overturned and it's more violent than ever. That completely defeats the gun worship argument.

Originally posted by CB328

On the other hand, there areplaces with gun control that don't have much crime like Vermont, so once again it's not because of gun control.

Vermont has virtually no gun control whatsoever.

reply to post by CB328

I've looked at gun control for a long time and the fact is that crime is more dependent on demographics than gun ownership. Places like Detroit and Chicago have lots of crime because there's lots of people, lots of minorities, lots of poverty, etc. They will always have lots of crime as long as they don't fundamentally change, adding guns isn't going to change that.

I agree with your take on demographics being the biggest factor but I disagree that more guns wouldn’t change the stats.

If we restrict guns enough, eventually the cost will rise enough that young people can't afford them even on the black market and that would help crime.

Nope! It would simply prevent law abiding citizens from being able to afford guns. Criminals don’t pay taxes, do background checks, or register guns.

Chicago had it's gun ban overturned and it's more violent than ever. That completely defeats the gun worship argument.

Incorrect!

Chicago has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. Illinois remains the only state in the country where nobody can legally carry a concealed weapon, and lawmakers recently introduced measures to restrict legal gun ownership even more.

Gun control policies don’t work because they disarm citizens while keeping criminals in possession of guns. Chicago’s strict policies have effectively given lawbreakers a monopoly on weapons in many parts of the city that the Chicago Police Department cannot or will not police effectively.

www.policymic.com...

It pays to be able to read:


Chicago's gun ban struck down


www.upi.com...

reply to post by CB328


Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws of any city in the country. Look at the date of your article vs mine....

CHICAGO (Reuters) - The Chicago city council voted unanimously on Wednesday to toughen its existing ban on assault weapons by adding more types of guns to the banned list and imposing stiffer fines for violations of the law.

mobile.reuters.com...

Chicago still does not allow concealed carry...the only US state that doesn't.

Originally posted by CB328
It pays to be able to read:


Chicago's gun ban struck down


www.upi.com...

edit on 10-8-2013 by CB328 because: (no reason given)

Yes it does!

m.nationalreview.com...

Pladuim

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Except only pretty much every other advanced economy (OECD countries) proves the opposite. Your viewpoint is extremely biased, as you compare the statistics from only one particular area and bring arguments based on these statistics, without considering what is happening in other countries and also forgetting other possible causes for the decreasing crime rates

Crime decrease in the recent decades is normal in every other developed country, with the increase in life quality crime rates decrease. Also the developments in security, police force play a lot of role. Higher chance of getting caught increases the risk in going to crime, so it also plays some role in lower crime rates.

These are the main reason behind the crime decrease, not the increasing number of firearms.

US has four times higher gun violence rates compared to any other first-world country. By your logic, all the other OECD countries should have even more guns, yet the amount of guns round there is significantly lower (on average around 4-5 times less per capita).

There are two possible solutions as population densities in larger European cities are pretty much similar compared to US metropolitan areas, so either Americans are naturally more violent or higher number of guns increases gun violence.

If we took UK for example into account, more people per capita are accidentally shot to death in US than in UK total firearm murders...

To sum it up, at least when take a broader look around the world, then we can conclude that higher firearm rates increases gun violence. Decrease in crime has happened in every other first-world, although the gun violence rates have decreased significantly slower in US. If there was not so large number of firearms out there, gun violence rates would go much lower than they are right now, which is extremely high compared to other first-world countries.

reply to post by Cabin

Crime decrease in the recent decades is normal in every other developed country, with the increase in life quality crime rates decrease. Also the developments in security, police force play a lot of role. Higher chance of getting caught increases the risk in going to crime, so it also plays some role in lower crime rates.

Violent crime rates in UK have been exploding. They really gained steam since the strict gun control measures in 1988. I guess either you missed those posts on page one or are choosing to ignore them.

Originally posted by CB328
It pays to be able to read:


Chicago's gun ban struck down


www.upi.com...

edit on 10-8-2013 by CB328 because: (no reason given)

Which hasn't actually gone into effect yet.

Also, as of July 2013:

The Chicago Tribune reported yesterday that the Chicago City Council and the Cook County Board of Commissioners have passed what may be the strictest gun-safety laws in the state of Illinois. One county measure bans all gun sales to people under 21 years of age (by contrast, the state of Illinois allows anyone 18 and up to buy rifles and shotguns, and anyone 21 and up to buy handguns). Another new measure requires every gun that a child could access to be stored with a trigger lock in a locked container separate from ammunition or on the owner’s person at all times; the city council passed a similar requirement. They have rather broad definitons of “child.” The city requires child-safe storage if anyone in the house is under 18 years old; the county, anyone under 21. Both measures go well beyond state law, which requires child-safety precautions for gun storage only if anyone in the house is under 14. Moreover, both the city and the county will now impose fines on anyone observed with an improperly secured firearm that a minor could access. By contrast, Illinois only punishes a gun owner for child-safety violations if a child actually acquires the gun and uses it to kill or maim someone.

m.nationalreview.com...

reply to post by seabag


Violent crime is no more or no less really than it ever has been here in the UK, its just that the police like to class as much as possible as a violent crime as it keeps them in a job as by law they have to deal with violent crimes.

and i don't see how owning a gun in the uk can help lower crime as its got to be stored safely which will mean that you won't have it on you while in the street or it'll be locked up while you're at home with the ammo in a seperate location while in most parts of the USA they're sleeping with their guns at the side of the bed loaded and with safetys off just in case

reply to post by seabag

Violent Crime in the United Kingdom

Includes all violence against the person, sexual offences, and robbery as violent crime.[11]
Rates of violent crime are in the UK are recorded by the British Crime Survey. For the 2010/2011 report on crime in England and Wales,[12] the statistics show that violent crime continues a general downward trend observed over the last few decades as shown in the graph. "The 2010/11 BCS showed overall violence was down 47 per cent on the level seen at its peak in 1995; representing nearly two million fewer violent offences per year." In 2010/11, 31 people per 1000 interviewed reported being a victim of violent crime in the 12 preceding months.

Regarding murder, "increasing levels of homicide (at around 2% to 3% per year) [have been observed] from the 1960s through to the end of the twentieth century". Recently the murder rate has declined, "a fall of 19 per cent in homicides since 2001/02", as measured by The Homicide Index.

en.wikipedia.org...


Decrease in crime rates has been observed in every EU country considering the last decades 1990-... . The graph takes into account only 1979-1992...

If we take a look at historical crime rates. UK vjolent crime rates went significantly uo since the 1960s and found its peak in 1995, after after that there has been a 47% decrease in the number of violent crimes. Partly all of this happened due to changes in the criminal law. The definition of violent crime was widened several times in the 1970s/1980s, so more crimes constituted as a violent crime, which rose the numbers. I do not know whether this particular graph took these into account or simply took the official numbers after every year.

Considering that the crime was already on the rise when the gun laws came into effect in 1988, then the gun laws had no effect on the crime wave, after all it was already on the rise before. Although 7 years later crime started decreasing and has decreased over 50% since

Currently, UK has significantly lower rates of gun violence than US (gun deaths), as I stated in my previous post, more people die from firearm accidents in US than the total number of people killed with firearms in UK.

Violent crime crime rates are uncomparable in these two countries as in UK everything counts as violent crime, even property crimes, hate speech, slapping insulting, disturbing night peace etc etc, while in US only murder, assault, robbery and rape constitute as violent crime.

reply to post by Cabin


I think that guns are fundamentally bad, I dont like guns

But at the same time i also recognize that they form a critical part of American culture and society a outright ban on guns or other form of gun restriction is in my mind not only unconstitutional but also un-american and I think as a Brit it would be wrong of me to say otherwise.

Furthermore these statistics are pretty solid, they clearly show that in American more guns means less crime.

if you have statistics on a national level that say otherwise please feel free to post them, just remember these stats come from the DoJ

Graphic courtesy: National Shooting Sports Foundation | 11 Mile Hill Rd | Newtown | CT | 06470

Just a couple miles from newtown school massacre.

Adam Lanza ring a bell?

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


The Americans do need their toys due to some of the rather nasty wildlife that inhabits the wilds so taking away someones defence against a grizzly or a pack of wolves is wrong but due to American politics being either yes or no for something and there now being no middle ground its turned into a great big clusterf---- of a political problem and the gun problem is a nice big bone that both sides can chew on

reply to post by Maxatoria


In that case you better buy some Zombie Ammo.

Well we do know that more laws don't prevent crime.

Honestly there should not even be a gun debate in the first place.

Between the second and ninth amendments anyone trying to ban anything needs to read those.

Shall not be infringed to begin with and no powers the government has can be 'intepreted' to disparage or deny any rights preserved in the constitution.

The stats show less crime, anyone saying ban guns is not paying attention to reality.

A few months back someone told me of a town that had crime rate dropped because the law insists everyone have a gun. he even claimed that the sign entering the town says that everyone has a gun and knows how to use it.

He did not remember the name of the town.

This thread reminded me of it and I did a search in google for: "city where it is law for everyone to own a gun"

here is a link to one of the pages on google

clicky

hmmmm

reply to post by neo96


what is needed is a controlled test...two towns of reasonably equal size under the same local/state/federal laws etc to establish a base line of average crimes etc and then change the gun ownership laws on one to either free for all or none and see what happens with all other basic law changes being mirrored between the two places

Originally posted by Maxatoria
reply to post by neo96

 

what is needed is a controlled test...two towns of reasonably equal size under the same local/state/federal laws etc to establish a base line of average crimes etc and then change the gun ownership laws on one to either free for all or none and see what happens with all other basic law changes being mirrored between the two places

interesting...I would like to add that it should be more towns and different states