Lets End the Fantasy of "being employed" or Having a Career in America

This is a terribly touchy subject for some, it has affected me greatly and I know the resentment shows. There are no more careers in my industry, none, just temp jobs.

reply to post by Aliquandro

I perfectly understand. Believe me, it has been devastating for my children also.

We're discussing this thread on ATS Live! - 10th August 2013

Originally posted by Aliquandro
Oh Brotherman, what a nice thread to let me vent in. This is a topic I have some experience in. S+F sir!

I have been contracting in the tech industry in Washington state for about 14 years now. The whole 1 year contract then UI then look for work and contract again works for me as an artist; I just want a mindless job that gives me time to paint and pays the bills until the art finally can (hopefully).

My first contract was for microsoft in Redmond, working for a huge agency that staffed thousands, and made easily 100% markup on my hourly wage and offered optional mediocre healthcare at a lousy cost, and i started around $15/hr with options for TONS of OT, and a raise every 6 months based on evaluation. There were so many people there making tons of money and it showed, but it wasn't the contractors doing the majority of the work. The very last contract there they were starting to outsource their testing to china.

5 years later I worked for cingular and they were even worse, the agencies out there were making more, jobs payed great, but the work was a JOKE. Nothing made sense and the product was essentially hip hop answertones, what!? AT&T bought them out right before I actually bailed on my contract once I realized how underpaid I was. They were outsourcing their testing to china as well as india, and hired many unskilled, underpaid workers with work visas locally. My first month at that job I heard more car alarms going off because disgruntled ex-workers were keying manager's cars. The most popular car in the lot at that time was either a humvee or dodge monster truck. My agency was violating so many moral and legal codes I had to leave.

Then I went on to contract for few other mainstream agencies outsourcing to giants like MS, or at least in business because of that crappy operating system. Most of these agencies outsourced to other countries, mostly india and china.

Currently I am in probably the worst contract I've had yet, making less than my very first contract (no insurance/benefits/option for FT), working for one of the richest companies yet, and rhymes with bugle. I think I might know why they are so rich. The majority of grunt work is done by outsourced and underpaid contractors.... ME! The image of the average employee at this company is that of someone overpaid and treated like a king. This is entirely not the case in the current scheme at this sweatshop. I work in a cubicle environment worse than I've ever experienced. The hardware is inadequate and mistreated, the management is disfunctional and clueless, the internal app is confusing clunky and has no documantation. They have no idea how to process a bug or truly communicate in an effective manner, and they have bizarre policies that are updated as frequently as their unstable software. They are HEAVILY dependent on outsourcing to india.

This industry is going in a bad direction fast and I am focusing as much energy as I have on my art and other skills that apply to a real world (like cooking, farming). I am not burning my bridges but seriously this tech job industry well is drying up fast.

Contracting agencies made out like bandits from day one, guaranteed.

Would contracting overseas be a possibility for you? At least you'd make high $90K at a minimum (depending on the area) and more depending on your skills and certs n' all. Your first $95K is tax free (IRS Pub 54) as long as you're stateside 31 days or less over the course of a calendar year. Most companies will pay a signing bonus, travel/vacation bonus and a completion bonus, of some sort. If nothing else you could bank some money for your other pursuits.

I did it for 7 yrs as a Satcom Tech.

With the average American worker bee being paid peanuts these days, sometimes drastic times call for drastic measures.

Brotherman has opened up a really interesting thread.

reply to post by bg_socalif


I wish more would look into some of the info I linked but hell if anyone wants to vent about this BS I always star it even if I disagree, I applaud trends of arguing a point in a failing argument I appreciate your quality content. I just ask you look a few posts back or huh huh huh heh heh heh and look at those numbers and posts and sources they have, It is pretty damming. The real answer is starting illegal mexican cleaning businesses I wont talk about sex crimes in other businesses that cost hardly anything to start up with profit but Im a decent guy

I want to preface this by saying that I am not American (though my partner is), I do not live in America and this is not an anti-US post.

From an outside perspective, I've always found the wage system there to be bordering atrocious. There is a tendency I am hearing more about where employees are going through temp agencies or offering contract work in positions where this would normally be considered non-traditional in lieu of simply offering permanent work. In doing so, you can employ people for less money to do the same type and amount of work. I know someone who works delivering food while they attend college and their employment was offered through such a contract. They get paid a standard rate per run ($4) plus whatever in tips. Sometimes tips are okay, sometimes their not and sometimes the person dispatching runs might decide they don't want to give you any. On a slow day, the hourly wage might work out to be as low as $2/hour (barely enough to cover fuel costs) and that, to me, is appalling. How can anyone live off that? For the same job where I am from, that person would earn upwards of $20/hour and would be reimbursed for fuel and maintenance costs.

Where there is a will (and resources) there is a way. The good jobs are definitely out there to be found, but I do not think it should be as hard or as rare to come by as they appear to be over there. It's a very unfortunate state of affairs and one of the reasons I am reluctant to move over to the US in the future. Though I'm certain I would find work relatively quickly for my profession, the difference in pay is astounding (and the cost of living cannot account for it); for an early career position that I would be paid $75,000 for here, I would earn $36,000 over there.

I have never understood why trickle down economics was ever hailed as a good idea. It seems so blatantly obvious to me that the extra money given to the wealthy and to big business is not going to make it down to the people who need it (and who should be given the tax breaks). These are people/companies that already have massive amounts of money just sitting in tax havens not being used to hire more people; why would more money change that situation? It just gives them more cash to hide away in countries where they can avoid paying tax on it (ironically translating to a negative affect on the home economy).

reply to post by tovenar


if someone decides to sue the mexican or accuse them of theft, they can just run back to their country!
I have no place to run to...
so, well I better be bonded, have the proper legal papers, and some type of insurance to protect my arse!!!

reply to post by hypervalentiodine


Geographically, our nation is huge. But if you look at the locations of the people who are reporting poor conditions, you will find that they are, geographically speaking, all in the same general areas: the east and west coast.

In the west it is due to the heavy taxation and social programs. Businesses are leaving in droves, and what is left is not quite as attractive.

In the east, it is similar, but the social programs are as much at the root as corruption is.

Out here in the middle of our nation, there is plenty of work under good conditions. Problem is, they look down on us as being yokels and hicks. So they don't move here. I have repeatedly told folks that they can make $20/hr their first week here in West Texas. All over Texas our economy is literally on fire. Instead of folks taking the advice, I get random news headlines posted with the comments amounting to, "WHat is wrong with those rednecks down there?!?"

If Americans want to work, they can work. They just have to choose to.

ETA: to help....Midland, TX is not a huge city. Maybe 150,000-200,000k Here are the first 10 of over 4000 jobs listed on this one website:

www.indeed.com...

Browsing through, many of those 4000 seem to be posted for multiple positions open, meaning thousands of jobs are available. And they will remain unfilled in many cases just because there aren't enough folks to fill them.

I live near Midland. I went there to eat yesterday. Not enough folks to run restaurants, so you have to start trying to eat supper around 3:30 to hope to be seated by 5. After that, it becomes an impossibility. When we were seated, our server was rude and smart mouth. They tolerate this because there isn't anyone to replace him. It is like that everywhere here. One person at our table didn't get their food until the rest of us were done eating.

We need workers here.. Bad.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Is this economic boom due to oil?? I lived in Midland for a little while, and then went on to Longview. What can I say, it would literally rain oil in Midland. We move to Texas in the late clinton years. While the Iranian hostage crisis was going on and oil was a problem Ya, Texas was booming then also. But, well, Reagan came into the presidency and the Middle East cooled down a little. And, they capped the wells. As some put it, they could get it cheaper overseas. The economy busted, tents cities popped up. And, well we moved on.

reply to post by dawnstar


The Reagan years were very hard on my family financially. But they are what drove my parents to go into business for themselves. But I remember how broke we always were. I was used to having a single pair of jeans and jus washing them daily.

I remember what the saying in the area used to be back then, "Lord, please give us another boom, and sense enough to not screw it up this time". IT was a popular bumper sticker in the area back then.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I know a lot of welders that left Texas to work either in North Dakota on the Bakken or here into PA because of the marcellus shale natural gas boom going on in North PA because the pay is a lot better. A guy I would work for was a Texan cool guy to work with. Hell Ill be starting a new welding job on Tuesday building robotic and automated equipment for industrial applications, More or less setting up a new plant I am pretty stoked about. Maybe I will make a thread about it after there for awhile and call it, How to build a robot lol

Originally posted by Brotherman
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

I know a lot of welders that left Texas to work either in North Dakota on the Bakken or here into PA because of the marcellus shale natural gas boom going on in North PA because the pay is a lot better. A guy I would work for was a Texan cool guy to work with. Hell Ill be starting a new welding job on Tuesday building robotic and automated equipment for industrial applications, More or less setting up a new plant I am pretty stoked about. Maybe I will make a thread about it after there for awhile and call it, How to build a robot lol

I know a few drillers who headed to PA in that shale find.

They are currently fracing the Cline Shale deposits. Like all new discoveries, this one is "the biggest ever". LOL....whatever. So long as it helps us get some much needed updates to our worn little towns.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

so, did they learn their lesson?? or is this boom all tied to the oil also?
the one thing I can say about texas back then is that if you ran across hard times,, people were willing to help you out. Much of the bill for our pediatrician was paid off by my hubby hanging shelves and the like in her office. And we had an "adopted family down there.
the welfare system was crap down there, but the people more than made up for it!

reply to post by dawnstar


its about the same. But we have a little more diversity: windfarms. Problem is, they won't have much labor associated with them on the whole. Just a few dozen technicians doing maintenance. There are tens of thousands in the Permian Basin nowadays.

Originally posted by dave_welch
reply to post by CornShucker

 

Yeah, I've had several jobs like that, unfortunately they're usually through a temp agency, so it never lasts long. I'd do that for $11.78 an hour though, no problem. Even with my knees as screwed as they are, I'd love to make that kind of money.

Agreed. I stuck it out because, even though I was totally exhausted every night, there is a feeling of accomplishment in doing a difficult and unpopular job & doing it well. When the plant was in the process of shutting down, I was called to the front office and told by our plant manager that I had not only been the best door man the line had ever had but also lasted longer than anyone else by a factor of six... That may not pay any bills, but the recognition was sincerely appreciated.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


they still have this thing where gee, if there are any men applying for a job, they will get it Because they have a family to take care of. The women, well that have a man to take care of them, or they should have??
My hubby wants to move back to TX. I won't do it, mainly because of that. I graduated from college in the early 80's.. Went to college because about the only job I could get was in the resturants, and I hated the work!! Only to find that they still weren't gonna hire me after college (with good grades I might add) There was too many men out of work, didn't matter if they were as qualified as me or not, they were gonna get the job. I decided to have kids instead of going back into the resturants.

reply to post by dawnstar


Thats the thing: the only men out of work around here are the lazy ones who don't want to work (or physically can't).

I don't know how it will be in the next bust. It isn't like it was in the 70's and 80's. But right now, I can't see where men are given any preferential hiring over women unless you are applying as a tool pusher or something.

reply to post by Brotherman
Fast food jobs or cheap retail jobs or low skilled jobs easily filled by high school kids were never meant to be a career, never meant to be a successful job that can give you a car, a house, a future.... those jobs were meant to be summer jobs for kids, extra income, side jobs.... they don't require much skill so don't pay much.
People expecting to make good money for a crappy jobs would be better off spending some time gaining education or skills in Specifically Targeted Areas! Libraries are still free. Tech schools can be a good place to start. Or a crappy job that actually has a way of getting ahead if you put in the time. Fast food working is NOT that. Some temp jobs do pay decently and have a possibility of becoming a more permanent job, but if your job skills are just what you learned in the Marines, then I guess it depends on what they taught you. Tech? Killing people? Medical? Not all skills translate to the civilian world, but that's where you have to make it.
Anyone that thinks they are going to afford to live by working at Burger King is delusional. There is a reason the pay sucks.... its still supply and demand. A lot of people can do the job there. Possibly even a chimp. Low skill, low pay. Too many people wanting the same crappy job, low pay. Management has the upper hand when there are a lot of people out of work. Sometimes you have to be creative and find your own niche and make your own job.
I'm not sure what job skills you have, but being a Marine may be irrelevant to getting a job. It's not an excuse, its something you have done in your past. You were paid for it, accepted it beforehand, and now you are out. If you didn't gain good skills in the military that can be used as a civilian, don't have GI benefits for getting good skills, then you will have to do it on your own. We didn't NEED to be in Iraq or Afghanistan for as long as we were there. You didn't NEED to be a Marine, you made a choice, spent time there, and now you are out. But now you NEED to have decent skills to get a decent job to make decent pay to have a decent life. If your area is in bad shape, move. There are 4 pages of help wanted in my town. Some are crappy, some have potential for a future. The skills are the difference.

reply to post by jaxnmarko


"Minimum wage" jobs are meant so people could earn the "minimum essentials" of living. You know a place to live, food on the table, clothes. You should be able to cover the minimum essentials on minimum wage. you get above minimum wage, and minimum essentials when you move up the chain.

Oh, it's ok to rip the high schoolers off, they are just after a little pocket change. It's ok to rip the old people off, they probably are just too bored to stay home and collect a pension. It's ok to rip off the new entries into the field off, they probably don't have a family to support yet. It's greed, and it's quite frankly bull#. And it never stops.

Originally posted by jaxnmarko
reply to post by Brotherman
Fast food jobs or cheap retail jobs or low skilled jobs easily filled by high school kids were never meant to be a career, never meant to be a successful job that can give you a car, a house, a future.... those jobs were meant to be summer jobs for kids, extra income, side jobs.... they don't require much skill so don't pay much.
People expecting to make good money for a crappy jobs would be better off spending some time gaining education or skills in Specifically Targeted Areas! Libraries are still free. Tech schools can be a good place to start. Or a crappy job that actually has a way of getting ahead if you put in the time. Fast food working is NOT that. Some temp jobs do pay decently and have a possibility of becoming a more permanent job, but if your job skills are just what you learned in the Marines, then I guess it depends on what they taught you. Tech? Killing people? Medical? Not all skills translate to the civilian world, but that's where you have to make it.
Anyone that thinks they are going to afford to live by working at Burger King is delusional. There is a reason the pay sucks.... its still supply and demand. A lot of people can do the job there. Possibly even a chimp. Low skill, low pay. Too many people wanting the same crappy job, low pay. Management has the upper hand when there are a lot of people out of work. Sometimes you have to be creative and find your own niche and make your own job.
I'm not sure what job skills you have, but being a Marine may be irrelevant to getting a job. It's not an excuse, its something you have done in your past. You were paid for it, accepted it beforehand, and now you are out. If you didn't gain good skills in the military that can be used as a civilian, don't have GI benefits for getting good skills, then you will have to do it on your own. We didn't NEED to be in Iraq or Afghanistan for as long as we were there. You didn't NEED to be a Marine, you made a choice, spent time there, and now you are out. But now you NEED to have decent skills to get a decent job to make decent pay to have a decent life. If your area is in bad shape, move. There are 4 pages of help wanted in my town. Some are crappy, some have potential for a future. The skills are the difference.

I explained all this in the OP:

"... it seems to me that this is a divided crowd where the haves talk about the ease of work to the have not's and they offer advice that is simply whimsical."

I like how you emphasize on NEED lol I am a welder I have a job, I weld I don't NEED your advice about the #ty jobs. People that say stuff like posted above are really out of touch with the state of affairs in this country, maybe you NEED to get educated on that. If fast food jobs are meant for teenage agers, why is it that my local Mcdonalds and burger king across the street from one another are mainly operated by work release inmates from the county jail? Sure a couple teenagers work along side them but hey what the hell, why do temp agencies exist, they are a scam IDC what people come in here and say about oh its so great for the business owners blah blah blah while corporations are having record breaking profits the regular hard working people can't even find a decent career or job. The days of working for a company for 20+ years is dead, the economy is going to fail and those that are already barely getting by are going to get the worst end of it. LOL Being a Marine irrelevant to finding work hahahahaha it is always relevant IDK where this maybe irrelevant came from because it always is. Especially when you fill out all those job applications and they want to know your work history, or when they do your background check, or those little boxes that ask are you a veteran of the US Military, what do you suggest? I leave it blank cause it might be irrelevant.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
I know things in this country are bad when I firmly believe that Putin is more concerned with his people than Obama is with the average American. Obama IS concerned with those that aren't legal citizens, and those too lazy to work, and people like Al Sharpton, but the average middle class family can go to hell, as far as Obama is concerned.

Is it the president's job "to give work" to Americans? No.

It's the EMPLOYERS job. If anything, the president's job would be to establish programs which make it more appealing to employer's to hire people (tax breaks, for example) or to set-up whatever programs which support employment..but it's STILL the employer's job to actually EMPLOY people. Is this so hard to grasp?

Problem: As long as corporates have free reign to be able to save costs (== make profits) AT ALL COSTS this will not work. They will continue to outsource and lay off, rather than creating new jobs.

If Obama or whoever is president in the US do only voice the idea of social programs where, say, a company would get tax relief if they hire more people....or HYPOTHETICALLY there would be new laws disallowing outsourcing and off-shore manufacturing - the first thing you would hear is whining how "socialist" the country has become because for you guys ANY kind of government involvement (even to the benefit of the whole society) is seen as "socialist/communist".

Do you not see who is to blame here? Do you seriously think it's Obamas fault that people are un-employed and that a majority of the jobs are sh!tty temp-agency jobs? Do you not see the problem here is that big wigs and corporates can do what they want? The problem is the idea of CAPITALISM and how this works out in reality. The fact that a company has the liberty to manufacture in China for 1/50 of the cost of the US and that a company can have entire divisions in India/Phillipines and no one gives a **** about it and everyone is ok with it.

I used to live in the US for a long time and was working for a sh!t-temp agency for many, many years. Year after year I got "re-hired" without any effing health-insurance, paper contract or basically any real "rights" as would be the case in many other, civilized countries.

I was working for a HUGE, established corporate. They loved me, my work and my dedication to the work, however ultimately only exploited me (and along with me many, many others) by keeping people on via temp-agencies for years and years without ever really "hiring" through the company.

So why? Because it saves the corporate money for health insurance. Because it was the cheapest way for the corporate. Again..."free reign" of capitalism. Now...tell me what THIS has to do with the president?