How the Soviet KGB created Conspiracy Theories

Originally posted by wasaka

Same goes for the AIDS conspiracy... and all the rest.... yes, the Soviet's spy
machine had a job to do, but that doesn't mean they invented these ideas themselves
"out of whole cloth" (as they say).

And Im saying maybe they did. You see, the "We never went to the moon theory" makes no sense at all because any country could check on whether we hoaxed it or not. Had we really hoaxed it it would have been all over the news in Russia. Way too many people involved to hoax it. So it looks as if the story was simply made up, out of nothing.

And what is the result of such a story in the minds of the people? Total loss of trust. And the effect of that? Overall a weakening of morale and an increase in divisiveness. Now multiply that times many other disinformation campaigns and you can really make some headway in defeating the enemy.

You say you dont think the KGB made any of this up, but once you read the documents and listen to the witnesses, you see a different picture emerge. A VERY different picture.

here's an example of what the former kgb guy said was something that would happen. the idealistic socialists would melt down when they realized how it actually looks and works, in application

Originally posted by undo
wow. this guy is something else

Just watched that video. Very interesting, thanks for posting. It was done in 1984 and he said there is a chance in the future that their system would "collapse from within", and thats what happened. But its like the campaigns they started still live on.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Except for the fact that defectors who were high ranking officers from the communist bloc have also been warning the west about these same tactics that Skyfloating is pointing out in this thread, and how socialist and even communist doctrine will even be taught at universities and colleges in the U.S. Not to mention that so much they warned the west about has actually come to pass.

I don't understand your point. As I said, the book that Sky derives his information is a good read, but it is also biased, I didn't say it was untrue, merely implying that the story was somewhat embellished and due to it's bias offers a narrow picture. By reading the full scope of available literature, about the operations carried out by intelligence networks globally a fuller picture is obtained. Defectors are obliged to sing for their supper, no shock there, however retrospectively, those defectors have frequently been found to have over elaborated both their personal importance and the truth in general, further more, they are often used by the governments to which they defect for propaganda purposes. It is all part of the game.

I do not see how teaching socialism and communism in US universities is even remotely relevant to the thread. Soviet Russia was a totalitarian state, neither socialist nor communist.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
If you would read up on how communist states became communist and even socialist dictatorships you will find that it was through similar indoctrination and propaganda.

Again, Soviet Russia was a totalitarian regime, not socialist, not communist. The socialist regime that immediately followed the Revolution fell to Leninism and subsequently became totalitarian, if you watch the first film that Undo posted, it is clearly discussed and explained there, that the Soviets operated a system of State Capitalism that was neither communist or socialist, though it was for a time a dictatorship.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
Not only that, but this has worked so well that I would dare say quite a few people in power these days all over the world were brought up not only believing in this propaganda, but have been actively seeking to destroy what once were viewed as western ideas, values and doctrines.

Again, if you watch undo's first film, you will appreciate that in Soviet Russia, the people were subjected to similar programming towards the US, as the US were toward the Soviets. The difference being, that in Soviet Russia, the people could not question or resist in any shape or form, due to the risk of punishment and or exile. There is a very good reason why some were willing to try and breach the Berlin Wall even at the risk of getting shot in the process.

All sides engage in black propaganda, counter intelligence, sabotage, etc etc. The OP only presents a single, biased view. I am making no excuses for the Soviets, but nor am I about to make any excuses for the action of my own country's intelligence activities. Peter Wright's Spy Catcher offers a perspective that balances out the OP, and demonstrates how both the US and the UK were often fully aware of Soviet activities, particularly in the US, and particularly in relation to feeding them towards the FBI. It served their purposes as well as the Soviets.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by undo
wow. this guy is something else

Just watched that video. Very interesting, thanks for posting. It was done in 1984 and he said there is a chance in the future that their system would "collapse from within", and thats what happened. But its like the campaigns they started still live on.

either that or they have succeeded far more than we realize at socializing the usa and are now using our country to make the whole world socialist, while they sit back and pretend they are too damaged to be a threat. they maintain the facade that we are still a republic, when we all know we are a democracy (socialistic), to keep us actively fighting their wars, while they blame us for it, all over the world. it's like the repubs and dems, but on a global scale.

Originally posted by AlexIR
Pacepa is one of the biggest traitors, biggest liars, biggest everything you want.

Here's what the Encyclopedia says:

Ion Mihai Pacepa (Romanian pronunciation: [iˈon miˈhaj paˈt͡ʃepa]; born 28 October 1928 in Bucharest, Romania) is a former two-star general in the Securitate, the secret police of Communist Romania, who defected to the United States in July 1978. He is the highest-ranking defector from the former Eastern Bloc, and has written several books and news articles on the inner workings of the communist intelligence services. At the time of his defection, General Pacepa simultaneously had the rank of advisor to President Nicolae Ceauşescu, acting chief of his foreign intelligence service and a state secretary of Romania's Ministry of Interior. He defected to the United States after President Jimmy Carter's approval of his request for political asylum.

Originally posted by wasaka
AIDS is not an accident of nature.

Let's stop blaming God, soviet counter-propaganda, and green monkeys. It is time we faced the truth about the origin of this selective killer. AIDS was designed to "neutralize the undesirable element" within the United States and make a person's immoral lifestyle seem acceptable as cause of death. . .the perfect plague. The lives of millions of uninformed people depend on the recognition that we have deliberately and covertly unleashed a biologic Holocaust of unprecedented proportions.

The KGB loved to refer to Americans as having caused "Holocausts", "the biggest genocide in History". They just couldnt make up their mind whether that "biggest genocide" was against the Native Americans or in the form of AIDS, etc.

Its also ironic, considering that two biggest instances of REAL genocide happened on German and Russian turf.

Originally posted by HawkeyeNation
A few more years and the US will have it's own War within the states and the USSR will come in with a bang.

As I see it, the Soviets were defeated. Their system collapsed. But the price we paid for that is higher than commonly known. We took a lot of ideological hits. So while we may have "won" the Cold War, it may have exhausted us to a point where we might collapse ourselves in the future.

Originally posted by HawkeyeNation
Wow

Twisted...but it's quite believable imo. The Russians are not about to show their hand and will wait patiently as the US continues to weaken. Now we have to ask...is it the Russians who instilled most or all of the conspiracies to date? 911, which I believe did happen, but also has some credible conspiracies to make us once again doubt our gov't and their agenda.

I wouldnt go so far to claim that almost ALL c-theories are KGB Propaganda. I've become careful about saying stuff that cant be backed up. But the Soviets certainly published more disinfo than we're aware of.

Originally posted by randyvs
And yes as I said I must agree to that. But in the case of my parents. They drew their conclusions
thru only the slightest amount of media. And what that involved mostly, was footage of the assassination
very graphic, that was seen on CBS within the first hour. She never did get to have my pop see it as
it disappeared from history after her seeing it twice. she said with'in the first hour
That's what I believe involves the tampering of the Zapruder film. They cut out all the
bullet splashes that missed.

...and there even may have been a JFK-conspiracy. The OP wouldnt rule that out.

I found some scanned documents from the library here: archive

Also interesting exert from a report on the archive and why the author was chosen:

43. Mr Mitrokhin's reason for compiling the archive and bringing it to the West was to have it published. Mr Mitrokhin tried to give his archive to the US Authorities before successfully giving the material to the UK. In his evidence to the Committee, Mr Mitrokhin stated that getting his material published was a condition of his co-operation with the UK authorities and had been recorded in a letter he gave to the Embassy staff when he first made contact. It therefore became incumbent on the Government to ensure that the material was published in a controlled manner.This meant that not only was ministerial approval required to start the publication project, but it would be needed prior to final publication.

Source (Bolding and italics my emphasis)

This kind of thing is the reason wikileaks exists. Whilst I don't doubt there was a lot of truth in what came out of this information it seems incredibly suspect that only one author appears to have access to the majority of documents? Unless I'm missing something?

Sometimes I wonder ... some of the allegations about KGB activities make them look like a 1980s comedy show rather than an intelligence organization. I guess we won't know for sure how much of both stories is real. Nice thread Sky.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
It is certainly a very entertaining book, but one that should be measured with a generous pinch of salt, not least of all because it is written by Christopher Andrew.

lo Kilgore,

Interesting posts. Curious about Christopher Andrew, but I guess I will research myself.

Originally posted by NoRegretsEver
If this is true (Im not saying that it is or isnt) then it could very well make everyone think twice about almost everything.

Which is the whole point of this thread.

Conspiracy-Theoristss have developed a credo called "Question Everything".

Over time, that turned into "Question Everything except Conspiracy Theories".

But it should really just be "Question Everything". That keeps the mind open and flexible.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Freeborn

I'm sure the US / UK / Israel etc have been 'guilty' of using exactly the same tactics, sometimes against the USSR.

But just to add one thing though: 99% of all conspiracy theories you will find here, on ATS, for instance, are not directed at the KGB or Russia. The majority have either America, Israel, "The Illuminati" (Jews), "the Bankers" (Jews), "The Government" (Americans), American Corporations, Secret Societies (European-American) as the source and cause of evil. It is very, very rare that you read about the secret machinations of KGB, FSB, SVR.

I haven't read all the replies but perhaps, just perhaps, the reason for this is because most of the folks who 'conspire' are the folks you list!!

There is no doubt Russia used propaganda but I would suggest many of the theories they circulated had truth in them. I've said it before, RT is a propaganda channel yet the American government and its actions hardly make it difficult for the Russians to make them look bad!

The problem we have is that all this propaganda is also being circulated in the Islamic world, so in the very near future, 'conspiracy theorists' could easily be labeled 'terrorists' because the two will merge. I am also convinced this is a delieberate agenda carried out by those behind the scenes.

Originally posted by Pinke

This kind of thing is the reason wikileaks exists. Whilst I don't doubt there was a lot of truth in what came out of this information it seems incredibly suspect that only one author appears to have access to the majority of documents? Unless I'm missing something?

Keep in mind that this author, while credible in the eyes of intelligence analysts is not the only source and not even the main source of information about KGB Campaigns. Defectors have been essentially saying the same thing for decades but not many listened to them until after the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
The problem we have is that all this propaganda is also being circulated in the Islamic world, so in the very near future, 'conspiracy theorists' could easily be labeled 'terrorists' because the two will merge. I am also convinced this is a delieberate agenda carried out by those behind the scenes.

Nobody is labeling conspiracy theorists "terrorists", but its no coincidence that those actually responsible for various attacks and bombings were first indoctrinated by conspiracy-pamphlets depicting the U.S. and Americans as the ultimate evil. Before someone acts in such ways you first have to get them to fear and hate.

You see a lot of such threads on ATS, such as "America created the biggest genocide in History", which is derived from classical Soviet schooling. People buy into it and the seeds of hate are planted, slowly growing and developing over time.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Nobody is labeling conspiracy theorists "terrorists", but its no coincidence that those actually responsible for various attacks and bombings were first indoctrinated by conspiracy-pamphlets depicting the U.S. and Americans as the ultimate evil. Before someone acts in such ways you first have to get them to fear and hate.

True, however, in some instances, the direct actions of the US have facilitated that fear and hate. That too is no coincidence. Propaganda is usually a blunt tool unless it is at least based around a grain of truth, however small.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
You see a lot of such threads on ATS, such as "America created the biggest genocide in History", which is derived from classical Soviet schooling. People buy into it and the seeds of hate are planted, slowly growing and developing over time.

Seeds need to be nurtured. The basic rule of black propaganda is to exploit weak links and to build upon already established seeds of doubt. Those conspiracies detailed in the OP were not started by the Soviets, they were merely elaborated on. For example, in the thread that you detail above, there is a firm basis of truth. The Native American people were adversely affected by colonialism and pioneerism, while that may not have been a willful act in it's entirety, it was a willful disregard for the way of life of hundreds of thousands of people, which resulted in an uneven conflict. To claim that such a thread is derived from 'classical Soviet schooling' is in itself misleading propaganda, given that it equates to a matter of perspective. To the Native Americans, incursion by white settlers may seem like a genocide. No Soviet participation required, unless, like many, you mistakenly perceive all actions of popular, or demographic socialism, to be representative of Sovietism. Are you too going to blame anti-Freemasonry propaganda on the Soviets? Or at the other end of the scale, anti-Jesuitism and the Monita Secreta?

You pluck a few examples where the Soviets stirred the pot, but the pot was already bubbling, to suggest otherwise is as misleading. Propaganda and conspiracy theories go back to year dot, as you well know. While the Soviets targeted the US, the US equally targeted the Soviets, it was the Cold War, and that war was fought largely in the heart and mind. The key difference is that no one in the US wanted to defect to the USSR, though many in the US were sufficiently opposed to the rise of Capital Imperialism, and subsequently, Corporationism to sleep with the enemy from time to time. While dissenters within the USSR risked their lives in taking up an opposing position, in the US, laws maintained tight lips, that, and the risk of a loss of livelihood and status.

Either way, while the Soviets may have exacerbated conspiratorial memes, the US did just as much to feed into the paranoia of it's own people, creating a receptive environment to those conspiracies.

www.designer-daily.com...





Consider the following...



...is communism, and conspiracy theory really to blame for the demise of those values depicted, or did the rot come from within, from those who rather than foster the internal economy, accumulated wealth and power that they used to feather their own nest, thus creating huge divides between the haves and the have nots. That cartoon paints a utopian picture completely detached from historical and contemporary reality.

Whether the propaganda, and conspiracies, are disseminated at home or abroad, they are still distortions of the truth designed to serve divisive purposes that lead to the same ultimate goal of power being held in the hands of the few over the compliant masses. As that gulf widens, the likelihood of dissension increases, requiring the imposition of laws and controls, more fear propaganda, in order to prevent organised opposition. That is how civilisation works, or rather, where it fails.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Seeds need to be nurtured. The basic rule of black propaganda is to exploit weak links and to build upon already established seeds of doubt. Those conspiracies detailed in the OP were not started by the Soviets, they were merely elaborated on.

In the OP, two methods of KGB Propaganda are described:

1. Creating conspiracy-theories from nothing ("Americans never went to the moon")
2. Adding to and aggrandizing already existing conspiracies or wrongdoings

You saying that "these conspiracy theories were not started by the Soviets, disregards the first option, while emphasizing the second.

Your motive for doing so is presumably political bias. Some people have entered this thread adding politically motivated "spins" from either "side" to the original OP, but the OP favors no such interpretations.

Are you too going to blame anti-Freemasonry propaganda on the Soviets?

Today, anti-masonic propaganda is mainly carried by evangelicals.
Interestingly though, it began in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, where Freemasons
were persecuted.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
1. Creating conspiracy-theories from nothing ("Americans never went to the moon")
2. Adding to and aggrandizing already existing conspiracies or wrongdoings

You saying that "these conspiracy theories were not started by the Soviets, disregards the first option, while emphasizing the second.

So you are claiming that Bill Kaysing was a Soviet Agent?

Kaysing asserted that during his tenure at Rocketdyne he was privy to documents pertaining to the Mercury, Gemini, Atlas, and Apollo programs, arguing that one does not need an engineering or science degree to determine that a hoax was being perpetrated. Even before July 1969, he had "a hunch, an intuition, ... a true conviction" and decided that he did not believe that anyone was going to the Moon.[4] Kaysing wrote a book titled We Never Went to the Moon: America's Thirty Billion Dollar Swindle,[5] which was self-published in 1976.[6] The book was republished in 2002 by Health Research Books. In his book, Kaysing introduced arguments which he said proved the Moon landings were faked.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Your motive for doing so is presumably political bias. Some people have entered this thread adding politically motivated "spins" from either "side" to the original OP, but the OP favors no such interpretations.

Your title is "How the Soviet KGB created Conspiracy Theories". That is an incorrect statement and misleading, they may have developed some, a few, perhaps, but they certainly didn't 'create' conspiracy theories. I am sure that that is not what you mean, but that does not make the title any less misleading.

You claim that from 1917 the Russians were engaged in highly developed intelligence operations, this too is misleading. They operated within an environment of highly developed international espionage activities, a situation which was so internally divisive that thousands were killed as a direct result, due to the paranoia it generated, largely by German and British intelligence operations attempting to manipulate the outcome of political rivalry. Sure the Russians caught up fast, but as you say, it pays to question everything, and examine the entire picture instead of allowing YOUR bias to fixate on the behaviour of a single faction.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Today, anti-masonic propaganda is mainly carried by evangelicals.
Interestingly though, it began in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, where Freemasons
were persecuted.

Really?

The seed of the myth of Stuart Jacobite influence on the higher degrees may have been a careless and unsubstantiated remark made by John Noorthouk in the 1784 Book of Constitutions of the Premier Grand Lodge of London. It was stated, without support, that King Charles II (older brother and predecessor to James II) was made a Freemason in the Netherlands during the years of his exile (1649–60). However, there were no documented lodges of Freemasons on the continent during those years. The statement may have been made to flatter the fraternity by claiming membership for a previous monarch. This folly was then embellished by John Robison (1739–1805), a professor of Natural Philosophy at the University of Edinburgh, in an anti-Masonic work published in 1797. The lack of scholarship exhibited by Robinson in that work caused the Encyclopædia Britannica to denounce it.[4]

en.wikipedia.org...

Towards the end of his life, he became an enthusiastic conspiracy theorist, publishing Proofs of a Conspiracy ... in 1797, alleging clandestine intrigue by the Illuminati and Freemasons (the work's full title was Proofs of a Conspiracy against all the Religions and Governments of Europe, carried on in the secret meetings of Freemasons, Illuminati and Reading Societies). The secret agent monk, Alexander Horn provided much of the material for Robison's allegations.[3] French priest Abbé Barruel independently developed similar views that the Illuminati had infiltrated Continental Freemasonry, leading to the excesses of the French Revolution.[4][5] In 1798, the Reverend G. W. Snyder sent Robison's book to George Washington for his thoughts on the subject in which he replied to him in a letter:[6]

“It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am. The idea that I meant to convey, was, that I did not believe that the Lodges of Free Masons in this Country had, as Societies, endeavoured to propagate the diabolical tenets of the first, or pernicious principles of the latter (if they are susceptible of separation). That Individuals of them may have done it, or that the founder, or instrument employed to found, the Democratic Societies in the United States, may have had these objects; and actually had a separation of the People from their Government in view, is too evident to be questioned.”

en.wikipedia.org...

Alexander Horn (1762–1820) was a Scottish Benedictine monk who became a British secret agent and diplomat. His work contributed to the birth of the conspiracy theory of the illuminati.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

The Anti-Masonic Party was formed in upstate New York in 1828. Anti-masons were men who feared the secret power of Freemasons—believing that they were a powerful secret society that was trying to rule the country in defiance of the republican principles. These opponents came together to form a political party after the Morgan affair convinced them the Masons were murdering men who spoke out. This key episode was the mysterious disappearance, in 1826, of William Morgan (1774-1826?), a Freemason of Batavia, New York, who had become dissatisfied with his lodge and intended to publish a book detailing the secrets of the Freemasons. When his intentions became known to the lodge, an attempt was made to burn down the publishing house. In September 1826 Morgan was seized and disappeared.[2]

en.wikipedia.org...

The "Morgan incident" has generally been given as the cause of this party, (1) so, in order to arrive at an understanding of the true place of this affair in the formation of the party, a brief description is necessary. William Morgan, who resided at the time in Batavia, New York, was, on September 14, 1826, arrested on a charge of petit larceny, and imprisoned in the jail at Canandaigua. While confined there, he was kidnapped by several men and conveyed in a closed carriage across the country to Ft. Niagara, where public knowledge of his whereabouts ceased for a time.

www.masonicdictionary.com...

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


No, I did not say that "Bill Kaysing is a Soviet Agent". I didnt even imply it.

And no, you do not know how many of these theories originated with the KGB. You just say "Well, the KGB did not create these theories! Or...uh...well...maybe some of them....but only very, very few!".

But I say they created and planted more than that, MUCH more. I actually have a five part thread series on this, which I intend to post over time, (only posted KGB Part 1 and 2 thus far). If you think the OP gives the KGB too much credit (negative credit that is), you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

And yes, I am aware of where anti-masonic conspiracy theories come from before the 20th Century.
Im a Freemason, remember?

Right now you are trying to downplay the influence the KGB has had on conspiracy-theories. I don't profess to
know why you do that, considering this must we one of the only or only threads on ATS that highlights Soviet faults, while most other highlight the U.S. faults. Dont worry, the balance wont shift anytime soon. Id have 10 Million more threads to go to shift that balance in the U.S. favor.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
No, I did not say that "Bill Kaysing is a Soviet Agent". I didnt even imply it.

Well...ya did, kind'a...you said the Moon Landing Hoax was started by the KGB. Since Bill Kaysing claimed to have initiated that hoax...see what I mean?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
And no, you do not know how many of these theories originated with the KGB. You just say "Well, the KGB did not create these theories! Or...uh...well...maybe some of them....but only very, very few!".

I only questioned that they 'created conspiracy theories', not that they spread them, and I acknowledged that they may have originated some. It is unbefitting of you to go putting over emphasis on my choice of wording, when I am, essentially, not disagreeing with you, just returning your jibe about possible bias.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
But I say they created and planted more than that, MUCH more. I actually have a five part thread series on this, which I intend to post over time, (only posted KGB Part 1 and 2 thus far). If you think the OP gives the KGB too much credit (negative credit that is), you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I very much look forward to you developing your argument, and expanding upon the information that you provide, I presume that your inability, or rather unwillingness to do so in this thread is to build up the level of anticipation so that you can truly wow us with the research that you have undertaken. My breath is suitably baited.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
And yes, I am aware of where anti-masonic conspiracy theories come from before the 20th Century.
Im a Freemason, remember?

Indeed I do, that is why I chose that example, yet, you chose to answer the question incorrectly. I didn't set the parametres to the 20th century, in fact, to demonstrate the bipartisan nature of black propaganda I qualified my point my mentioning the Jesuits...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Right now you are trying to downplay the influence the KGB has had on conspiracy-theories. I don't profess to
know why you do that, considering this must we one of the only or only threads on ATS that highlights Soviet faults, while most other highlight the U.S. faults. Dont worry, the balance wont shift anytime soon. Id have 10 Million more threads to go to shift that balance in the U.S. favor.

I think that bias has more to do with the high proportion of members that reside in the US than any bias against the US. The vast majority of threads are about US politics, I don't like those so much, don't read them or anything else about US domestic news or policy, personally, I would rather didn't clutter up the conspiracy boards...who's bright idea was it to merge Above Politics with the Conspiracies any way, surely they'd be better placed in BTS if anything? Point being, I am commenting on your thread because it actually interested me, I didn't realise I was under an obligation to agree with you though.

I am not attempting to downplay the influence of the KGB, merely picking at a few of the holes, and pointing out that the British are a devious bunch of #es who have a history of playing off one side against the other...you know, just giving credit where it is due...and providing a little context. Admittedly, I have been working on something that focuses on the Far Right, so I may be a little more inclined to ensure everyone gets their fair share of the tar brush...but all in all, I agree that the KGB stirred vigourously of the pot, and I am just adding my tuppence worth in the hope that you will provide deeper insight and discussion, however you seem more insistent on claiming that I am exhibiting a bias than in countering my arguments, which is a tad shoddy.