Nicola Tesla. Stifled Hero.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by ItDepends

 

Yes. A man to be admired for his accomplishments.
Not a hero. Not to me anyway. His disregard for the most basic of human rights won't allow me to put him on that pedestal.
I don't think I'd invite him over for dinner.

edit on 8/4/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

I am completely fine with your comments here. Hmm, I might just invite him over for dinner. Ya know, you can't always judge a book by its' cover. Maybe a one on one conversation would be highly stimulating and more revealing of how he really felt and his hopes for humanity. Of course that can't happen, so all we are left with are with what we can investigate, learn and then decide how we feel about the man, the person. For me, considering everything.....I've seen worse.

I'm not really quite sure what the point of this thread was. Are we to denounce Tesla and scorn the very mention of anything he did based on his views on eugenics? I think very many supposedly great people throughout mankind's history have had views we would find absolutely barbaric now, and a few hundred years from now, the same will most likely be thought of our ways.

I'm beginning to wonder if Edison found the secret to immortality, and is masquerading around ATS as Phage.

Just kidding.

reply to post by Basilis

I'm not really quite sure what the point of this thread was.

It's pretty explicitly stated in the OP. While there is more that one level to, the basis is there. The level of his accomplishments is unquestionable. In light of his belief that some people should be sterilized against their will, does he really deserve the elevation to hero class?

Are we to denounce Tesla and scorn the very mention of anything he did based on his views on eugenics?

Nope. I haven't suggested that.

I'm beginning to wonder if Edison found the secret to immortality, and is masquerading around ATS as Phage.

Not quite that old. But it is a fact that Edison was anti-eugenics.

Originally posted by OOOOOO

Originally posted by GargIndia

Originally posted by Phage
The work of Nicola Tesla is often presented on ATS. The man is usually characterized as a stifled genius who's inventions would have set mankind free of the bonds of corporate and government greed and evil.

There is no doubt that he was a very talented man. While his grasp of more advanced science was often wacky (a firm believer in "ether"), his use of existing science did allow him to produce some ingenious inventions. It is true that our dependence upon electricity has much to do with his work.



Ether: The light (electromagnetic waves) could not travel in space if there was no medium. Yes - there is something called dark matter (ultrafine neutral particles) which cannot be perceived by existing science.

Unfit people not allowed to have children: Criminals, diseased, perverts should not be allowed to have children. This is the right way and is according to God's laws.

Dress Sense: Why should anybody wear revealing clothes - man or woman? There is a purpose of clothing, which is not merely protection from the elements. A busy person and a scientist would like to concentrate on his work rather than stare at his secretary.

They have never proven that dark matter exist, if it were to exist it is far from neutral, since is said to be holding universe together or something of that sort If anything I would think all Dark matter really is, just dark gravity, which like regular gravity, they don't understand or know much of nothing about.

What bible do you read I have not seen this said in Bible and or God's Law. Thou bad person shall not breed or have sex, so I have written, is My Law.

If you were a naked scientist why would you look at your naked secretary unless she was in season, to wit she should be at home procreating,.

1. The current science does not understand dark matter and how it works. Mr Tesla was way ahead of his time, so it is natural that people are unable to understand him today as well.

2. Does Bible tell people to run around naked? No.
All religions tell people to dress properly - like cover their bodies and head.

3. The children are as much a responsibility of the State as they are of the parents. It is critical that a child gets a healthy upbringing - in terms of mental, physical and moral development. This requires efforts of both father and mother. How can a child be raised properly if one parent is in jail, or banished from society, or an absconder? In addition, certain diseases are genetic (where certain genes mutate and the disease is passed to the offspring). Why should the society pay a heavy burden of raising and supporting a diseased child for life?
The most correct way is to remove criminals and diseased from the society so that they cannot procreate.

I do not want to comment on the Bible. The most comprehensive rules for humans are in the Vedas and in Manu Smriti.

reply to post by Phage


The perspective you present is not good. At least, it is not good for the present modern world. The kind of world that can get a person blacklisted or worse for daring to have a negative opinion. I think it would be wise to consider his personal views in the context of the time he lived in. I would wager a kidney that multitudes of common people with no historical importance had personal views that would be considered negative or offensive in our present modern world.

Why does it matter that Tesla criticized clothing? He gave his subordinates a dress code. Surely you can understand that. I understand that and I despise the concept of the dress code.

So Tesla didn't like overweight people. He had eugenicist opinions. So what. Did he actively participate in making those views a reality? My point here is that everyone fantasizes about what the perfect world would be for that specific individual. Take note here that I am, in fact, an overweight individual. I don't think less of Tesla for his views in that respect. I can relate. There are certain types of people that I have no use for.

There is something that I don't understand. How does the personal views of Tesla have any bearing on the science he contributed to? Ok, so he may have been scum in private life. Does this in any way diminish his discoveries? His Theories? His accomplishments? I don't think it does.

No one idolizes his personal views. They respect his science. The man is dead. He cannot affect anyone with his personal views any longer. What his personal views have to do with his work as a scientist I don't understand.

Perhaps I am missing something?

Or perhaps I have the ability to ignore the foolish personal opinions of an intelligent man while having respect for his professional achievements. I don't see the tragedy in that.

reply to post by My_Reality

There is something that I don't understand. How does the personal views of Tesla have any bearing on the science he contributed to?

It doesn't. And I've repeatedly said so.
Drop the outrage that someone might dare to criticize Tesla and try to understand the point. It's not really hidden.

No one idolizes his personal views.

Maybe because they aren't aware of them. But there seem to be a lot of people who idolize the man. The man who thought that it was a good idea to force sterilization on those he considered unworthy of "breeding".

Perhaps I am missing something?

I think maybe you are.

Or perhaps I have the ability to ignore the foolish personal opinions of an intelligent man while having respect for his professional achievements.

Oh. No you aren't missing a thing. You understand the point perfectly. And you agree with my assessment.

Here's a bit of a wrap up. The idea was to get people to think about some stuff. It seems to have worked...in some cases.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by geobro

 

people forget he lived in a time when it was the american thing to do they even handed out prizes for the best eugenics clinics /states and gave the idea to germany .

You have some evidence that Nazi Germany got it's "idea" from the US? But what about his "arch rival", Thomas Edison?

Comedy, especially farcical exaggeration, became a powerful tool for antieugenics filmmakers in particular, beginning in 1904 with Thomas Edison's The Strenuous Life, or Anti-race Suicide, a four-minute film satirizing contemporary pushes for increased fertility among the white, educated upper classes.

books.google.com...

Earthquake machines. Death rays....from the mind of a eugenicist.
So which one was really working for the NWO?

edit on 8/3/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

I do not believe he was tesla was working with the NWO. Mind you, he died and his information was taken. To me, that screams assassination and theft. Inadvertently helping the NWO.

reply to post by Soulece

I do not believe he was tesla was working with the NWO.

I don't think so either.

Mind you, he died and his information was taken. To me, that screams assassination and theft.

He died a sick old man. His "information" is in a Serbian museum built in his honor.
www.tesla-museum.org...

reply to post by Phage


First of all. I have no idea of what you have repeatedly said. I read your OP and posted my response. Simple as that. Perhaps you should give me the benefit of the doubt of not having read the entire thread and all your responses.

I am a bit confused. I provided my opinion toward your OP in many examples. You quoted and replied to only five sentences. Are the rest of my points irrelevant? Do you think they are unworthy of discussion? Does it not fit the portrait you seem to be trying to create?

Why respond to the points you can best relate an argument for while ignoring the rest? I don't think I was being unfair or disingenuous with the points I brought up.

reply to post by My_Reality

Perhaps you should give me the benefit of the doubt of not having read the entire thread and all your responses.

Ok. It did get a lot larger that I expected it to but still, commenting on just the OP is not generally a good practice. Since the idea is that a thread is an ongoing discussion it can become problematic when one has not been following the discussion. I'm not really criticizing, I understand your point. Please try to understand mine.

You quoted and replied to only five sentences. Are the rest of my points irrelevant?

Not at all. But they have also been addressed elsewhere in the thread. Some, on multiple occasions. Can you give me the benefit of the doubt if you feel I was overly selective in repeating myself.

I don't think I was being unfair or disingenuous with the points I brought up.

Nor do I. But please understand that I actually have addressed them.

reply to post by My_Reality

But you seem to have not noticed that I agreed with you.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by luciddream

 

I agree. A very good and innovative inventor.
A great man. Not so much.

edit on 8/3/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Perhaps you are measuring him by the yardstick of today, rather than the yardstick of his own time. Surely you cannot deny that they might not be the same type of yardstick?

reply to post by Rich Z

Surely you cannot deny that they might not be the same type of yardstick?

Can't deny that. Was Tesla just going with the crowd?
Can you deny though, that there were those at the time who did not accept the idea of eugenics?
From a early post in the tread:

Comedy, especially farcical exaggeration, became a powerful tool for antieugenics filmmakers in particular, beginning in 1904 with Thomas Edison's The Strenuous Life, or Anti-race Suicide, a four-minute film satirizing contemporary pushes for increased fertility among the white, educated upper classes.

books.google.com...

reply to post by Phage


Fair enough. I will pursue the thread for simliar points and answers. I see and understand the point you are expressing.

On an unrelated note. I read the link you provided me earlier. To me the personal opinions and philosophy of other important historical figures is irrelevant as well. As a species we can't learn anything from their intolerance, bigotry, political leanings, ETC. We can learn much from their academic pursuits. Genghis Khan was not a scientist but allow me to use him as an example. Yes, the Mongols were murderers of perhaps millions of foreign people. Yet their Yassa code of laws made the Mongol realm the safest land in all the civilized world.

My point here is extreme. I wanted to use an extreme example to demonstrate my point. Tesla, for example, did not perpetrate the extreme amount of killing the mongols had. This is why his scientific ideals flourish and his personal views do not. His science has touched most of humanity in the past century. The Mongols system of law, just and equal as it was, does not stand out over their extreme tactics in military affairs. Most people know of the Mongols as mindless barbarians that murdered without justification even though this is far from the truth. The same holds true with Tesla. The difference is that the science Tesla promoted led to major advances throughout the world. His personal views on overweight people and eugenics did not. In my opinion this is the reason that people extol the science of Tesla. His views on science were mainstream and affected millions of people. His personal views on the other hand affected few people. Therefore most people can comfortably ignore them.

Edit to add. Crashing for the night so I won't be making replies for a while.

reply to post by My_Reality

His personal views on the other hand affected few people.

And yet, there were involuntary sterilizations (ca 60,000) performed in the name of eugenics. Can he be completely absolved of responsibility? He did not speak against the practice and openly supported it.
www.uvm.edu...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

"And some of the founding fathers owned slaves, but that doesn't take away from their great achievements."

And nothing can take away Tesla's contributions. But his inventions do not make him a great man.

With what I've learned about Thomas Jefferson, I don't really look at him the same way I used to. He had some really good ideas but he wasn't such a great guy and he didn't exactly practice what he "preached". I'll go with his ideas but drop him.

edit on 8/3/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

Good heavens! What else makes a person great other than what they DO that they will be remembered by? Are you seriously claiming that a person who has DONE great things, is not by association a GREAT person? How else do you define a "great person", then, if not by what they DID? And how will such a person be considered as "great" if they never DID anything great? Who would remember them?

Seriously, you ARE what you DO. How can anyone judge you otherwise?

So Tesla had an opinion on how Eugenics would work in the future, the quote you gave is in regards to what he believed would be happening by 2100-

The year 2100 will see eugenics universally established. In past ages, the law governing the survival of the fittest roughly weeded out the less desirable strains. Then man's new sense of pity began to interfere with the ruthless workings of nature. As a result, we continue to keep alive and to breed the unfit.

He was expressing an opinion, whether right or wrong, two points emerge-

1- He was expressing an opinion and was not part of any group who were carrying out eugenics.

2- It does not undo any of Tesla's work. People don't idolise the man, they admire what he achieved through his understandings of science.

If you have such an interest in exposing Eugenicists, why not start a thread on those who were actually active in the eugenics movement, and still are to this day (Rockerfeller Foundation to name just one)-

Eugenics and the Nazis, the California connection

In 1909, California became the third state to adopt such laws. Ultimately, eugenics practitioners coercively sterilized some 60,000 Americans, barred the marriage of thousands, forcibly segregated thousands in "colonies," and persecuted untold numbers in ways we are just learning. Before World War II, nearly half of coercive sterilizations were done in California, and even after the war, the state accounted for a third of all such surgeries.

The Rockefeller Foundation helped found the German eugenics program and even funded the program that Josef Mengele worked in before he went to Auschwitz.

You think the likes of Rockerfeller and Bill Gates etc are geuinely trying to help people in this world, notably the African people? They are Eugenicists to their core.

reply to post by Rich Z

What else makes a person great other than what they DO that they will be remembered by?

I see. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, and not a particularly benevolent one. He considered his slaves to be a good investment, breeding them for sale.
As I said, no longer do I respect the man. But he was just a product of his times, right?
www.smithsonianmag.com...

While Tesla may not have personally sterilized anyone he did advocate the practice and certainly made no efforts against it.

reply to post by Wonderer2012

They are Eugenicists to their core.

So was Tesla.
Thank you for illustrating my point so clearly.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Wonderer2012

 

They are Eugenicists to their core.

So was Tesla.
Thank you for illustrating my point so clearly.

edit on 8/5/2013 by Phage because: (no reason given)

No, Tesla had an OPINION on how eugenics would work in the future.

Rockerfeller Foundation actively supported sterilisations and eugenics activity.

Quite a difference IMO.