Nicola Tesla. Stifled Hero.

Just remember Tesla was a scientist and a radical one at that. Those people have a totally different view of the world, life, us as humans and our place in the big picture. If you are a farmer you also just breed with the best. Sports - we only care who win i do not see we hand out trophies for whoever come last. Same thing. Same with your kids. I am pretty sure you want to believe they are the best. They might not be anything more than a dumb ass dork but to us they they the best on the planet.

reply to post by Phage


Everyone can agree that being obese is physically unattractive. Only a minority of people with fetishes for these things are attracted (which is why its called a fetish, otherwise it would just be normal).

So why is it so bad to seek a method of improving humanity? Obviously gas chambers and death to masses isnt the answer. But it doesn't mean that the problem of obesity doesn't exist!

Now... take it a step further, and imagine you are Tesla. Imagine what it feels like to out-think most people you meet in your life! Imagine how cursed you must feel that out of everyone you know, YOU are the one most people will eventually rely on even if most of them never quite know it.

Surrounded by relative retards or worse, ignorant people, can you really blame any person of this caliber (in their field) to not have exaggerated notions about others? I cannot blame Tesla.

Originally posted by Phage

Please show me where I have "vilified" Tesla in this thread? I don't think that "deheroizing" someone is exactly the same as vilification.

Phage I hate to break it to you. You may be smart but you are a little ant compared to Tesla and you can try in vain all day to bring down Tesla as a hero, you will not succeed.

You are way out classed dude.

I find this huge amount of energy you are thrusting into this ridiculous thread offensive. Why on Earth would you wake up and decide to spend all day trying to bring Tesla down.

Perhaps you should go back to figuring out UFOs and Optical artifacts and making UFO believers feel stupid. Tesla offend you with his comment? Are you a big fat slob of a human yourself or something?

This is a very difficult position to like or dislike. In some cases I would agree with this method of eliminating those who carry bad genes, but how do I know I don't have a serial killer in the family that never got caught and his genes are trapped in my jewels waiting for another chance to strike again.

Do people become serial killers or are they born that way? Does a rapist rape because of a past experience or would he be what he is no matter what? Are we born evil or do we become evil ?

We need to answer those questions before being able to take a stance on deciding if a pedophile keeps his jewels or not.

As for Tesla, he still created what he created and I applaud him for that. Maybe he wasn't a genius in the human relations department. You can't have it all. That's why we remember him for being good with electrical engineering and not with social engineering. Nonetheless, it is shocking that he said that would of never thought.

This is a little like what goes on with reference to "Halls of Fame" in various sports. To my mind, if you were a "boozer and a chaser" who regularly got into bar fights, beat your wife, neglected your kids, bet on games, didn't take out the garbage or help with the dishes and were a general all around skunk but won the World Series, batted 400 and had fame in your career, you should still be in the hall of fame.

Fame should be about fame and nothing else. I really get fed up with people who think sports heroes should be moral heroes too.

Tesla was one of the most important inventors in history. Perhaps only the prehistoric people who learned to make fire and who invented the wheel rank above him in industrial science.

It is good to know that he had screwy ideas in other departments of his life. He was still human, with "feet of clay" as they say. On the eugenics thing, I think that his ideas about "reproduction" were not unusual for the time, but there is a big distance between sending an employee home for a dress code infraction and advocating round ups of everyone wearing high hemlines.

He is justly famous for his contributions to science and industry. People should also be aware of where he got things wrong. My amazement at his accomplishments is not diminished by awareness of his mistakes.

reply to post by purplemer

I am sure you are aware that these views do not necessarily mean that a women is forced to have sex with a certain man. It can be done with genetic selection or embryo screening..

Yes, I am aware of that. I did not say anything about forced sex, did I? I have a problem with other people deciding who should and should not have children no matter how it is accomplished. I am deeply against the eugenicist notion of force sterilization.

No where have you said that his views where common at the time.

Actually, I have. Several times. I have also pointed out that there were many who were opposed to it.

reply to post by theMediator

Saying we should dismiss him because of that trait is plain ridiculous and even you know it

Yes it would be ridiculous but that is not what I am suggesting.

Do we really want to idolize a eugenicist?

Tesla seemed to excel in analytical thinking and visualization, but lacked what most would call basic social graces. His mind just worked differently. I doubt he had much emotion attached to this either way and was likely just that callas.

I suspect he looked at it as just being practical and a way of dealing with "undesirables", those perceived as flawed or a burden have to be dealt with somehow right? I don't hold it against him much, we let him lead with technology, not social engineering.

His personal views don't detract from what he accomplished in any way. Can't help but wonder what more Einstein could have achieved without the "burden" of social awareness.

reply to post by ipsedixit

Originally posted by ipsedixit
My amazement at his accomplishments is not diminished by awareness of his mistakes.

I think yours is an important statement.

It seems that Phage wants to cast a shadow over the "hero" regard that people have for Tesla because of an opinion - an opinion that he made no attempts to implement (unlike other leaders of the day). That's like saying he shouldn't be considered a hero because he loved vanilla ice cream when the consensus is that chocolate is the best. It's an opinion, and one he didn't force on anyone.

For contrast - Lance Armstrong. Many considered him to be their hero (being a cyclist, I include myself) because of his accomplishments. Even to non-cyclists, reaching and then setting a new Tour de France win record is an accomplishment. Then the allegations and ultimately the revelation that he cheated to win. An action that directly resulted in the feats he was idolized for achieving. Certainly, many (again, myself included) were crushed to hear the news - but the truth sometimes hurts. Is he worthy of "hero" status? In light of the evidence, no.

Tesla's opinions on matters not related to his accomplishments shouldn't be held against him, nor should they take away from his accomplishments. Just like Wernher von Braun (a hero to many) is no less the "Father of Rocket Science" because he was a Nazi.

reply to post by stutteringp0et

Just like Wernher von Braun (a hero to many) is no less the "Father of Rocket Science" because he was a Nazi.

I think some are starting to get the point. But it's taken a while. The "blasphemy" tended to overcome the real point.

Do we need to make men like these to be heros in order to appreciate their accomplishments?

Do we need heros so badly that we have to turn flawed men, as all men are flawed, into something they are not?

Originally posted by stutteringp0et
Tesla's opinions on matters not related to his accomplishments shouldn't be held against him, nor should they take away from his accomplishments. Just like Wernher von Braun (a hero to many) is no less the "Father of Rocket Science" because he was a Nazi.

edit on 4-8-2013 by stutteringp0et because: fix quote

The point you make about von Braun is a good one. We in the modern world owe much to the achievements of people whose opinions and loyalties and activities were often highly questionable if not manifestly repugnant.

I think we would all be better off if an awareness of that were more widely acknowledged.

One of my big concerns, reflected in my posts on ATS, is fear of the fascist streak in modern society. I think we have to see the presence of forces and tendencies within society that have to be handled carefully to be beneficial and that become toxic to us all if not controlled through informed awareness.

I would rather have a Tesla, warts and all, than a sanitized "sports hero" scientist.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by stutteringp0et

 

Do we need heros so badly that we have to turn flawed men, as all men are flawed, into something they are not?

Yes. Society needs ideals to strive for, and the culture needs stories to maintain it's mores.

Individuals may choose not to idolize those of great achievement, but society must.

reply to post by QuantriQueptidez

Yes. Society needs ideals to live up to, and the culture needs stories to maintain it's mores.

Thank you. I know you are in favor of eugenics and consider Tesla to be a wonderful human being. You've made that very clear previously.

reply to post by Phage


No. Thank you for not considering what I have to say. I also note you continue to put words in my mouth.

tsk, tsk.



I think it's best you clearly define your qualification of the term, "eugenics" so that we're all on the same page. It seems our understandings are a bit different.

reply to post by Phage

Originally posted by Phage
Do we need heros so badly that we have to turn flawed men, as all men are flawed, into something they are not?

As all men are flawed, what choice do we have but to make heros of them based on their accomplishments?

So you'd rather there be no heros, nobody to look up to, nothing to aspire to? "Don't be like him because he likes vanilla when clearly chocolate is the best"

It's all a matter of opinion, and in the end there's only one opinion that matters - our own.

Could this same logic be applied to other aspects of people revered as heroes? Founding fathers were slave owners and yet are idolized by many as heroes of our nation, wasn't Honest Abe a racist yet African Americans see him as the one who set their ancestors free, are they not heroes? What about Nazi scientists injected into our country like Von Braun and others, wasn't Oppenheimer a noted communist? I tend to agree with what Phage is saying that accomplishments are great but the man maybe not so much. I think though that this line of thinking can be applied to lots of others as well and will gather quite heated and mixed results.

reply to post by liejunkie01


How is this any different than allowing abortions? Almost the same thing. But, someone chooses who lives and dies in that case.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by geobro

 

people forget he lived in a time when it was the american thing to do they even handed out prizes for the best eugenics clinics /states and gave the idea to germany .

You have some evidence that Nazi Germany got it's "idea" from the US? But what about his "arch rival", Thomas Edison?

When Nazi administrators went on trial for war crimes in Nuremberg after World War II, they justified the mass sterilizations (over 450,000 in less than a decade) by citing the United States as their inspiration. The Nazis had claimed American eugenicists inspired and supported Hitler's racial purification laws, and failed to understand the connection between those policies and the eventual genocide of the Holocaust.

Link

I'm sure you're familiar with Margaret Sanger and her famous views on eugenics.

As part of her efforts to promote birth control, Sanger found common cause with proponents of eugenics, believing that they both sought to "assist the race toward the elimination of the unfit." Sanger was a proponent of negative eugenics, which aims to improve human hereditary traits through social intervention by reducing reproduction by those considered unfit.

Link

reply to post by Phage


Personally I believe it was just a statement he made relating to mankind. to filter out the bad genes, so as not to have a criminal pass their genes onto their offspring, which would not wipe out criminals unfortunately but go some way to maybe cutting down on their breed... I don't think it was anymore than that, If you had a cow that was a bad milker you would not breed calves from it. for that reason, and not because you are trying to wipe out the cow population of the world.... He had a great mind, a man before his time, and whatever credit he gets for his engineering skills he deserves it...... what his beliefs were is neither here nor there to anyone, especially now he is no longer of this planet..... RIP Nicola Tesla