Americans committed the worst genocide in world history

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


by that logic.....no they did not.

I proved my case already in this thread. Would you care to adress my points? Really the burden of proof is on you after making an outlandish claim like this that is in direct contrast with known history. In multiple instances many people explained why your argument is flawed and incorrect. Your seeing this as a personal matter...interesting choice of words..."back down"...

so this is about you and not your "quest for truth"......

that's not so noble...just as I thought.

it would have been refreshing to see genuine concern....but this is exactly what I called it as...butt hurt.

The US slighted you somehow and so this is your way out.....interesting.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by frazzle

 

What? European fur trappers and traders had been all over the western part of this country since the 1600s, usually along with their Indian guides. Europeans were all a flutter over the furs brought back from the "new country" and everyone there knew the stories of the vast expanse of the wild lands, including the kings.

A small handful of independent trappers ventured westward, that didn't convey the true extent of the vastness of the land.
True westward expansionism didn't really start until the late 18th century reaching it's peak in the early to mid 19th century.

Some of those diseases were transported into western lands by Lewis and Clark in 1804,...

Correct, to a point.
The Lewis and Clark expedition was the first real attempt to map the land west of the Mississippi, to establish an 'American' presence there and to discover a route to the Pacific coast - this was in 1804 - 1806.
Maybe they did take some diseases with them, but Old World diseases had already had a devastating effect on the Native American population prior to this.

.... before them there were no epidemics.

Using an estimate of approximately 30 million people in 1492 (including 15 million in the Aztec Empire and six million in the Inca Empire), the lowest estimates give a death toll due from disease of an astonishing 80% by the end of the 17th century (eight million people in 1650).

en.wikipedia.org...

A guy named Nicholas Biddle funded that expedition. He was the president of the US Central Bank. He also edited the final report of that expedition. Take from that what you will.

Nicholas Biddle was 18years old in 1804 at the start of The Lewis and Clark expedition and was known to be in France during 1804.
The Lewis and Clark expedition was commissioned by the President Of The United States at the time Thomas Jefferson.
Biddle became President of The Second Bank Of The United States in 1822.
Yes, he did contribute to editing the final report of The Lewis and Clark expedition.

Make of that what you will.

Incidentally many Indians did survive the diseases, some with hideous scars, but still alive.

Of course many survived, a hell of a lot didn't.

Well that's a lot and its quite broken up but you are right about Biddle, he was the president of the 2nd US bank so I screwed up on that. Maybe you knew, though, that he graduated from Princeton University at the age of 13 so he wasn't just some 18 year old kid wiling away his time in Europe, he was secretary to American ambassadors John Armstrong in France and James Monroe in England, quite a lofty position for one so young.

But yes, Biddle did write the report on Lewis and Clark, trimming away about 2/3 of the information they had written about their expedition, making no mention of their six courts martial in reference to the terrible leadership on the expedition (especially Lewis) and the final report went through some 22 additional revisions after Biddle got done with it. We'll never know the truth about any of that, either.

explorepahistory.com...

Yes, Lewis and Clark made the first American GOVERNMENT'S attempt at mapping the west, and remember, they had to bring along an Indian guide because all previous maps were kept safe inside the heads of the indigenous peoples and trappers, also probably sometimes drawn into the dirt and rubbed out by time.

I lost track of the name of the guy at the head of the 1st US bank in the blizzard of attached wiki info, but everybody called it Hamilton's bank anyway ~ which is even worse than Biddle. Anybody who wants to bend their brain around some banking history can click here:
en.wikipedia.org...

Okay, "a handful" of fur trappers.

, around 1600, Europeans discovered that the short soft fur close to the beaver skin was ideal for processing into feltfelt: a kind of cloth that is not woven but made by rolling and pressing together wool, hair or fur. for beaver hats. The increasing demand for beaver pelts sent coureurs de bois: skilled woodsmen, trappers & canoeists, important to the fur trade. into the woods of Canada to trade with native tribes. In 1608 Champlain gathered these companies under one organization, the Company of One Hundred Associates, which established a permanent trading post on the site of Quebec City.

www.canadahistoryproject.ca...

And never forget John Jacob Astor, good friend of T. Jefferson and tycoon. You think he didn't already know about the vast lands and profits to be made in trapping before setting up his Pacific Fur Co. monopoly in 1812?

what people know about south america circa 1500s might not be all that their is to know you can hardly trust the goverment from 20 years ago to tell the truth .

where did all the people go from the cities over grown in the jungle ever hear about the sky people ? .

the earliest holocaust was of the south americans / incas etc we gave them vd /the flu etc and it was no accident either just like the indians of north america and the small pox blankets .

try reading about the giants of south america and the conquisadors and see how much you have heard about that time

Originally posted by geobro
what people know about south america circa 1500s might not be all that their is to know you can hardly trust the goverment from 20 years ago to tell the truth .

where did all the people go from the cities over grown in the jungle ever hear about the sky people ? .

the earliest holocaust was of the south americans / incas etc we gave them vd /the flu etc and it was no accident either just like the indians of north america and the small pox blankets .

try reading about the giants of south america and the conquisadors and see how much you have heard about that time

I don't know all that much about central and south America's devastation, but one of the things my link in the above post mentions regarding Biddle's report on Lewis and Clark's notes:

He omitted Lewis and Clark's extensive references to venereal disease and sexual relations with Native American women

reply to post by frazzle

many do not know what mel gibson was pointing at in his movie about the myans apocalipto when they walked through a village with a little girl covered in sores many think it was planned by the jesuit order and the vatican .

some of the myan cities held millions and were as big as modern day cities such as london 90 + % of south america was culled where the spanish or portugese went

reply to post by geobro


I missed Mel Gibson's movie so I don't know anything about the little girl covered with sores, but I do know the Jesuits, as well as the Anglican and Catholic Churches in Quebec did horrendous things to native children right up until the mid 90s..And even now indigenous people are being found chopped up into pieces all over the place, a hand here and a foot there. Its ugly. And no one is doing anything to stop it.

But yes, its hard not to know a little something about the major civilizations in South and Central America that were torn, literally limb from limb, from the pages of history.

If we are SOOO bad why does Iraq want us back to help? As does Viet Nam,the Philippines,Korea and EVERYONE WISHES they had US hardware don't they?

We aren't angels but we are still the best on the globe.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7


We aren't angels but we are still the best on the globe.

The best at what?

reply to post by alldaylong


War,we are good and the best because of free thinking,money and numbers. If it's conventional we got that. We don't really like it but there you go.

lol This thread is moronic on so many levels.

Originally posted by rock427
lol This thread is moronic on so many levels.

Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment because I know who its coming from.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
I'm not sure where your numbers come from. I'm headed to bed and too tired to bother getting the accurate numbers on Natives and who killed who between the French, British, Spanish (among others) and later, last but not least, the Americans themselves after independence. However, the estimates on the others is factually wrong by a wide margin.

Source List and Detailed Death Tolls for the Primary Megadeaths of the Twentieth Century

Stalin is good for 20 Million by himself. Mao is solid for 40 million with some estimates running as high as 60 million for just China during his rule and Cultural Revolution. Hitler is estimated close to 6 million in the camps alone.

Running between the 3 though, it's at least 66 million people murdered....since that figure isn't counting combat related deaths in the war (the 66 million).

Nothing very honorable about what Americans of the 19th and prior century did to the Natives. Nothing Honorable at all. Although comparisons just don't quite fit, as the Natives gave as much as they got, if not in sheer numbers. They fought like hell and they fought well for their right to live.

Mao, Stalin and Hitler murdered in a near assembly line fashion in some examples and systematically in all three cases. Just warm bodies to convert into cold ones.

You watch too many westerns. You think they bow and arrowed 47 million whites?

Originally posted by rock427
lol This thread is moronic on so many levels.

That's probably because you don't care about Native Americans much. Only 80 to 90% died. That toll cannot all blamed for the genocide. There were deaths by small pox also and other diseases. How many do you think were killed as a direct result of America being formed? I'm curious.

Originally posted by LOSTinAMERICA

You watch too many westerns. You think they bow and arrowed 47 million whites?

Well, instead of one liner attacks? Perhaps you can share sources to show a different result for why you believe what I've presented is wrong? Heck, if it's better than my sourcing? I may come away having learned something new myself. It wouldn't be the first time. It won't much happen that way tho.

My ancestors the natives were slaughtered and displaced en masse by everyone-else.

My ancestors the everyone-else were the ones doing it.

Oh yeah, and my native ancestors were also slaughtered by other natives sometimes.

(I love how revisionist history has made all native tribes, even those whose greatest glory was slavery and savage warfare, into peace-loving pretties who talk to the spirits of the trees. It's like rewriting the worst Klingons as disney cartoon animals. Kind of insulting.)

And my everyone-else ancestors were also slaughtered by other everyone-elses sometimes.

Boy that was a bummer.

I don't think anyone should make concentration camps or reservations anymore. It's just... mean.

Oh wait. South Carolina is starting on that road right now. See the thread on SC homeless.

I think I'm supposed to feel guilty about this, may be the point of the thread. Unfortunately I am 15 nationalities (depending on which family members I believe) nearly all of which were busy killing each other at some point, and I have so much to feel guilty about I'm lost in it.

I think the best thing we can do for history is learn from it, and try to be somewhat better people than our ancestors of ANY race or region.

I am not sure how everything from fluoridated water to Hiroshima got into this thread about the slaughter of native americans. Yes. Many bad things happen directly (e.g. Trail of Tears). Many bad things happen indirectly (e.g. gradual destruction of an entire western culture by poisonous pseudofood-etc.). But if the point is merely to rant about bad things, or even bad things limited to North America, this thread could last an unusually long time.

Originally posted by wrabbit2000

Originally posted by LOSTinAMERICA

You watch too many westerns. You think they bow and arrowed 47 million whites?

Well, instead of one liner attacks? Perhaps you can share sources to show a different result for why you believe what I've presented is wrong? Heck, if it's better than my sourcing? I may come away having learned something new myself. It wouldn't be the first time. It won't much happen that way tho.

How many white people died in the same time as the Native Americans did? See the ratio? I'll be liberal on my numbers. Was it 40 million? There are sources that say it's higher.

I have more respect for them than I do the rest of the races because they don't cry about it. Don't kid yourself. There is no way they even came close to the numbers they lost. It was a one sided genocide.

...Native Americans much. Only 80 to 90% died. That toll cannot all blamed for the genocide. There were deaths by small pox also and other diseases.

And some of those diseases including smallpox were part of the intentional genocide.

Originally posted by RedCairo

...Native Americans much. Only 80 to 90% died. That toll cannot all blamed for the genocide. There were deaths by small pox also and other diseases.

And some of those diseases including smallpox were part of the intentional genocide.

There is zero proof for intentional use of smallpox or measles. The pox blankets are a myth, and 80% were already dead due to the spread so when this intentional use was to happen the Indians were pass the point of lethal exposure since generations already exposed had come and gone.

Why are we not blaming the Spaniards for all this since they did it. Why is a group that didn't even exist get blamed?

Also, might want to look at China where in resent times they killed off 80 million during their communist purge to most likely be the worst.

Originally posted by geobro

try reading about the giants of south america and the conquisadors and see how much you have heard about that time

Damn those American conquistadors....

For a people that "didn't exist" those nonexistent generally-white-people sure bred and multiplied.

I don't know that the smallpox blanket story et al. is myth. I think there's a lot of revisionist history that tries to make things a lot prettier than they really were.

I was not so much complaining however, see my initial post in this thread -- everybody's killed nearly everybody at some point. Not much to do at this point but just move on and be better people.