should America surrender to Islamic rule?‎

Sorry I missed the gin thread.
satan and the jinn are from the same tribe yet they vouch for mohammed and allahs truthfullness if I recall correctly.
Odd that the devil would do that.
Odd that the devil would pee in your
ear if you sleep through morning prayers?
terrible that people condem things they do now about out of ignorance. that is wrong
worse still that others jump to defense of things they only think they understand that is indefensable .

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
terrible that people condem things they do now about out of ignorance. that is wrong
worse still that others jump to defense of things they only think they understand that is indefensable .

How ironic

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
If your going to attack Christanity use the New testement and start your own thread.
You can not make Islam good by making other things bad .
To clear things up for you Hitler was not a Christian the inqusistion was not spawned by the gospel of christ and the crusades were cause by islamic imperialsim..

Why? Christianity is a derivitive of Judaism. did you fail to understand that Jesus recites, Moses, Isaiah, Joel and several others from the Hebrew Bible as his justification for being on the earth?

Let me put it to you bluntly! Without the Hebrew Bible, you would have dismissed Jesus as a deluded idiot when he claimed to be the son of the God of Abraham and Moses. But I understand why you do not wish to see that your God, as depicted in your bible, is as despicable as Allah, it ruins your self-righteous attitude and any case you try to make against the Muslims.

No it explains why Christ came to give man an understanding of god and a chance for hope and new covevant and fulliflled the laws.
The OT puts the newT in context of time place and need,
it also proves mohammed is a fraud
As for my self rightousnees it not there I just object to the politcal correct protection afforded islam out of shear reflex because it is called a religion and it is popular Nazism was also popular it had a guide book and it was ignored Islam has one aas well It should not be ignored.
the two books are evil twins. promoting vile behavior.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by KAOSKTRL]

Originally posted by KAOSKTRLit also proves mohammed is a fraud

Ok, now this is starting to make sense. Its not about extremists, terrorists or Iraqis, its about putting down a religion that you feel is in conflict with your own beliefs. In other words, this has nothing to do with the war on terrorism. Why not start a "I hate Islam" thread in the BTS religion forum.

the two books are evil twins. promoting vile behavior.

BG, the Apologist

Im sorry no it is about removing lies surounding an ideology that most people have no idea about.
An ideology that has declared war on the entire world and has activly be trying to destroy the rest of the world.
Islam will not share, it will not play second fiddle .
Muslims have a devine right to take over the world according to the Quran.
I object.
I prefer Western style democracy to Islamic theocracy .
BUt I have a feeling your the expert on Islam here.Right?

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
Im sorry no it is about removing lies surounding an ideology that most people have no idea about.
An ideology that has declared war on the entire world and has activly be trying to destroy the rest of the world.
Islam will not share, it will not play second fiddle .
Muslims have a devine right to take over the world according to the Quran.
I object.
I prefer Western style democracy to Islamic theocracy .
BUt I have a feeling your the expert on Islam here.Right?

Satan actualy plays the Fiddle; maybe he'll be nice and give you a turn.

How many muslims do you see taking over the world? How many muslims do you see trying to chide 'deMOCKracy' in America? Since when are you an 'expert' on Islam ? Prove to me, beside the biased fanatical sites you find from 'allah' knows where, that Muslims, as a whole, have declared an 'all out' war against the world ?

Please, i mean, the Muslim couple must be real sneaky if this is true, in fact, they may have laced my lemonade, or those damn kids lemonade stand is actually selling anthrax !!!!!!!!

Also, what exactly is western style democracy? What are you using as a paradigm ?

Deep

I want to give you what you want .BUt your going to have to try to meet my some where along the way.
western style life like I have here the laws and entertainment and choices.
I hope you can grasp that with out a whole lot of anti american bias,
My deen, Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.
The ummah is the entire islamic nation (all muslims)
the Islamic deen

www.ummah.org.uk...

the Ummah theme

Allah is our objective.
The messenger is our leader.
Quran is our law.
Jihad is our way.
Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.

8.39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides All�h) and the religion (worship) will all be for All�h Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides All�h), then certainly, All�h is All-Seer of what they do.
www.road-to-heaven.com...

The total number of volunteers from the ikhwan in 1948 numbered 10,000 from Egypt, Syria and other countries. In addition to participating in the battle to liberate Palestine, they served to raise the consciousness of Muslims all over the Islamic World and restore to them the spirit of struggle and dignity.

Wow, so 10 thousand 'fanatical' Muslims represent the entire majority? Wow, hats off chap, you've gone out on a limb on this on here.

This disclaimer is interesting aswell: Important Disclaimer : The maintainer of this page is not a member of Al-Ikhwan patry and does not approve or agree with everything they say. This page is there for the soul perpose of answering the questions you always had and never knew who to ask.

I want to give you what you want .BUt your going to have to try to meet my some where along the way.

I asked you some questions, this 'meeting half way' is just a cop-out; we have two different objectives: I, too defend the right of men/women to practice Islam without any prejudice and bigotry from ignorant minds, and, you, to attack an entire majority by the 'fanatical' acts of a minority.

I hope you can grasp that with out a whole lot of anti american bias,
My deen, Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness.

Anti-American? Me, anti-American? ........ We are confused, that we are.

Now, i asked you to tell me, no, PROVE to me, that all Muslims were on an all out war against non-muslims, and were adamant in destroying the very foundation of the American dream; alas, you gave me some link, which proves what exactly?

...........

Hey, i'll throw you a link too.

www.bmf.org...

This dude seems pretty nice,

The people who have come to rule the world should think about this. Every man should think about it. Peace can only be found in the heart. Good qualities, wisdom, and clarity must provide that explanation within each heart. Man will only know peace when he brings God's justice and His qualities into himself. Therefore, before we speak of peace, let us try to acquire God's words within ourselves. Let us find tranquility within ourselves. If we can do that, our speech will be fruitful. Then the whole world will be at peace.

www.bmf.org...

Maybe we can answer this JIHAD question aswell,

My brothers, the holy wars that the children of Adam are waging today are not true holy wars. Taking other lives is not true jihad We will have to answer for that kind of war when we are questioned in the grave. That jihad is fought for the sake of men, for the sake of earth and wealth, for the sake of one's children, one's wife, and one's possessions. Selfish intentions are intermingled within it.

True jihad is to praise God and cut away the inner satanic enemies. When wisdom and clarity come to us, we will understand that the enemies of truth are within our own hearts. There are four hundred trillion, ten thousand spiritual opponents within the body: satan and his qualities of backbiting, deceit, jealousy, envy, treachery, the separations of I and you, mine and yours, intoxicants, theft, lust, murder, falsehood, arrogance, karma, illusion, mantras and magics, and the desire for earth, sensual pleasures, and gold. These are the enemies which separate us from Allah, from truth, from worship, from good actions and good thoughts, and from faith, certitude, and determination. These are the enemies which create divisions among the children of Adam and prevent us from attaining a state of peace


Man this is so easy, i should just copy and paste articles more often, i mean, this is so easy to prove my point, hey, wait, what point did i have again...

www.bmf.org...

Truth is one and Islam is one. It shows no preference for any particular religion, sect, race, or tribe. It sees no differences between black, white, red, and yellow. It does not distinguish between people from China and people from Africa, America, Europe, Australia, Asia, Russia, or any country in the world. It does not even show differences between those in the realm of the primal beginning9 and those in the hereafter.10 The word Islam has only one meaning: the unity and peacefulness of truth. That truth is Allah. He rules all the universes with His truth and peacefulness and with absolute faith, certitude, and determination.11 Islam is comprised of His three thousand gracious qualities and attributes, His unity, tranquility, and virtuous conduct, His equality, and His compassion. They are His wealth. To attain that wealth we recite the kalimah, "There is nothing other than You, O God. Only You are Allah."12 God is the One to whom we pray. He is the truth which we must accept in this world and in the hereafter.



Deep

True jihad is to praise God and cut away the inner satanic enemies

I'm typing real slow here so you can keep up DO you believe this?

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL

Originally posted by Nygdan

Prove it? You've never read the koran have you? It clearly does not call on muslims to kill non muslims. Jews, christians, zorasterians, and hindus lived peacefully under theocratic islamic rule in the past.

YOU prove that it says this, you lying little slanderer. Good people can not and will not let pathetic pigs like you make these plainly false statements unopposed.

What of the people who choose not to live underIslam will not pay the jizya will not submit to the superior nature of islam will not convert
What is the solution?

"When an infidel's country is conquered by a Muslim ruler, its inhabitants are offered three alternatives:

1. the reception of Islam, in which case the conquered became enfranchised citizens of the Muslim state
2. the payment of Jizya tax, by which unbelievers obtained "protection" and became Dhimmis, provided they were not idolaters, and
3. death by the sword to those who would not pay the Jizya tax."

(Dictionary of Islam, pg.243).

The dictonary of islam, or the koran itself? You were saying its the Koran that says this. Well, what part of the koran says this then? Everyone gets punished for not paying taxes, one thousand three hundred years ago, i guess the arabs decided tax evaders should be put to death. Thats hardly the same thing as all muslims being dictated by their religion to murder non muslims. Your original claim and your 'support' seem to have quite a difference between them.

Some people do not wish to live uder Islamic rule

Irrelevant. Some people didn't want to live under Roman rule. That didn't mean that the Romans wanted to exterminate all non romans. One can certianly find roman texts urging the destruction of entire tribes, the eradication of the germans and the like, but that is not the same as saying all romans and roman culture seeks to destroy all barbarians. The muslims are in this way the same. The struggled, violently, with other people around them, just like everyone else. There was nothing constitutional about this propensity, nothing that isn't in all humans. Just look at what you and others are calling for. Genocide, mass murder, destruction of an entire culture, a culture thats literally on the other side of the planet. Even the warlike muslims have rules against fighting people that are far off and away.

As for the peacefull expansion of Islam it is a myth

Its obvious that you are no islamic scholar or student of islamic history.
It most certainly is not a myth, there were peacful converts to islam, just as there were peaceful converts to christianity when it was spreading its empire. And at the same time it was a political and military expansion, in both cases.

So there we have you not knowing what your talking about and being proved wrong

Unbeleiveable. You are telling a muslim that you understand his religion better than he does. Infact, you go on from here to acuse him of purposefully lying, in effect being part of a conspriacy to destroy everyhting. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. You quoted a portion that dealt with beleivers specifcally, not non-beleivers. And of course islam is harsh on other religions, hell, look at revelations and the christian tradition of the tribulation. Or rent one of those stupid left behind movies or look at the books. They're big sellers. Christians gobble them up, practically lapping the brains out of the smashed skulls of 'non-beleivers', reveling in them being thrown into pits of fire and having their flesh boil off their bones. And these are christians? These are jesus followers?

So the muslims are no different, they aren't particularly spiteful, they aren't especially violent. More to the point, nothing that you've presented so far shows that they are constitutionally commanded to destroy non-muslims, which is exactly what you wer absurdly claiming in the begining.

Prophet had their men killed, their woman

Is it at all necessary to consider the portions of the bible the call for the destruction of enemy tribes, enemy peoples? THe wiping out of entire cities, merely because they are promiscuous? Or the demand from jesus that followers leave their fathers and family? Or the penultimate destruction of all non-beleivers by a jesus lead army? Jesus was radical jew, spanning the deserts, like many other groups of radical militant jewish rebels. He talked about destroying the old world and setting fire to it, ruining the old order and setting up a new one with him as the head of a church militant. And you're going to talk about muslims, who indeed conquered and expanded, but who then allowed jews christians and fire-worshippers to live in peace, unmolested? And you're actual complaint has changed from 'muslims kill all non-muslims' (which is demonstrably not true) to 'muslims require people living under their governance to pay taxes'?

Ishaq:page 676

its becomming apparent that you have serious reading and comprehension problems. This section talks about the killing of someone that is set against their religion, lives amoung them, and is openly publishing books and tracts against them. Its 700 AD. Of course she is going to be murdered. But this is not a call nor a demand for all muslims to destroy all non muslims. How many women did the early christian community execute in its internal power struggles?

I will mock them and let them continue to wander blindly.�

How is it that you read 'i will mock jews' and get 'all muslims must kill all non muslims'? By similiar logic, you are a homocidal maniac bent on killing everyone around you, because you call for the destruction of muslimsm, which is even more egregious than 'mocking jews'; the very statement that you inflate into maniacle bouts of murder in muslims.

Case closed

Looks more like case not even started. You took note of a section that deals with how enemies are to be destroyed, not a portion that deals with destroying all non muslims. And it requires that even their mortal enemies be given the opp to cooperate, they can't be destroyed out of hand.

I will not cooperate in the charade that Islam is tolerent or peacefull

And instead you make up lies that its bent on the destruction and murder of all non muslims.

How many towns have We [plural] destroyed as a raid by night?

This is a joke right? YOu started off by saying that muslims are commanded to destroy all non muslims, and, therefore, all muslims must be destroyed, because they will allways try to destroy everyone else. But then you put forward quotes that do not support this. Instead they're almost exactly equivalent to the parts of the bible and christian commentary that talk about wiping out this tribe, exterminating all of their women and children, or enslaving this population and the like. Brutal stuff, but not unusual for any group in the past, which is entirely contrary to your original claim. Sure, the case is closed, you said it yourself. Thats what you felt was your evidence, and you've said it was sufficient. Its plainly not. You're obviously entirely wrong, and everyone can clearly see it. Its not islamic apologists that are seeing this, its regular people, and we can all see that you are wrong.

should America surrender to Islamic rule?�

You must have been sleeping during the election, or you'd have seen that we already surrendered, but to Christian fundamentalist rule....

That was a nice rant Nygdan funny you dont despite mohammed had a detractor of his murdered in her bed while she was sleeping with her children . You merely wave it aside as the cost of founding a movement .
now back to your original hernia


9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in All�h, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by All�h and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Isl�m) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

kill them and torture them8.12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."

I appreciate your aiding me in exposing the true nature of Islam I could not do this with out a foil. yes The prophet spread islam peacefull .
HAHAAH remeber all those raiding parties Chirst went on those were great

8.67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but All�h desires (for you) the Hereafter. And All�h is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

Tabari VI:138 �Those present at the oath of Aqabah had sworn an allegiance to Muhammad. It was a pledge of war against all men. Allah had permitted fighting.�

[edit on 11-11-2004 by KAOSKTRL]

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
That was a nice rant Nygdan funny you dont despite mohammed had a detractor of his murdered in her bed while she was sleeping with her children . You merely wave it aside as the cost of founding a movement .

I didn't waive it aside. they plainly killed the woman and it was wrong. But its irrelevant to your 'all muslims are required to kill all nonbeleivers' claim.

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in All�h, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by All�h and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Isl�m) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Right. If you have expanded your territory to include non-believers, then make them pay taxes to the legitimate governement. If they won't, make them pay their taxes. This, agian, is not a message of 'murder all non beleivers'.

8.12.

And, again, what is the context of this message? Are they talking about a particular group of non beleivers that they were struggling with? Another arab tribe perhaps? And also, why is it that you ignore the portions of the christian and jewish scriptures that make this same call? Do you also think that christians are jews are equally compelled ot destroy non-beleivers?

I appreciate your aiding me in exposing the true nature of Islam I could not do this with out a foil. yes The prophet spread islam peacefull .
HAHAAH remeber all those raiding parties Chirst went on those were great

Man, you really can't pay attention for very long can you? I am not trying to convince you, you are obviously unreasonable, and, furthermore, have repeatedly demonstrated that you don't know what you are talking about and can't understand a simple passage of text. But everyone else can see that you have been unable to support your 'muslims are required as muslims to kill all non-muslims' slander.

8.67

Irrelvant. It isn't talking about all non beleivers. Its talking about a particular group that the muslims were struggling against. This goes back t my previous points. You aren't paying attention, because I never said that islam never spread thru violence. Infact, I've made it pretty clear that it was a violent and destructive expansion. But you, apparently, are just arguing with some imaginary 'straw man' 'hypothetical muslim apologist'. no one here is contending that islamic history isn't violent. You, however, are contending that muslims must kill all non muslims. That, again is clearly not the case. I don't even think its the case that islamic history is disproptionately violent, certainly not for its time, and especially considering its original context.

Tabari VI:138

Again, muslims plainly don't do this sort of thing, and, without more context, one really can't say what the intention of this was. How many times did jesus talk about destroying the old order? Sure, now we all say he meant it in metaphysical terms, well, what is the muslim take on it? I mean, you would have one belevie that all muslims are lying about this.

"Islam at the cross road" (Page 8):
"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myth that historians have ever repeated."

An article in Reader�s Digest �Almanac�, year book 1986, gave the statistics of the increase of percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in �The Plain Truth� magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, and Christianity had increased only by 47%. May one ask, which war took place in this century which converted millions of people to Islam?
Islam is the fastest growing religion in America and Europe.

Gonna have to cut you lose ,Your clearly not tethered to reality anylonger.
You just ignore the words in the quran and go on about your business.
Nice meeting ya.

Originally posted by Nygdan
Again, muslims plainly don't do this sort of thing, and, without more context, one really can't say what the intention of this was. How many times did jesus talk about destroying the old order?

- Excellent work Nygdan.

Interesting information on your religion and you totally faced down that troll. Bonus.

I agree, the Bible is full of tales of wholescale slaughter and orders to 'kill em all' and 'keep ye separate' and referring to stacks of people as 'unclean'.

Anyone who tries to 'understand' that yet refuses to extend the same understanding to another faith is just a hypocrite.

[edit on 11-11-2004 by sminkeypinkey]

Good to see your still embracing ignorance.

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Interesting information on your religion

Which one is that?

kaosktrl

Good to see your still embracing ignorance.

Man. There is a lot of irony going around these days. I think its time to start questioning if its a non-renewable resource or not. I mean, think of all the irony that was jsut wasted, just completely throw away in the stupid alanis morisette song. And nowadays, well its getting thrown around like its aluminum or something. What if we run out one day, just when we needed it the most. Wouldn't that be ironic?

Originally posted by KAOSKTRL
No it explains why Christ came to give man an understanding of god and a chance for hope and new covevant and fulliflled the laws.

Wrong! the Jews already had an understanding of God, they are the elect, or need you be reminded of that?. The prophets Moses and Isaiah, as quuted by Christ makes that clear. Therefore your understanding of the NT is fallacious, indignant and corrupt. Christ came to provide one more chance at redemption, not just for the wayward Jews, a sect which all non-Jews was previously damned to hell, but to extend same once more to all Jews and non-Jews alike.

1The OT puts the newT in context of time place and need,
2it also proves mohammed is a fraud

Wrong again! the Old Testament is the word of the creator, the almighty. And I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news news here to those who think as you. The son has made it clear that his father rules. Therefore, as much as you or Christianity, as pronounced within the gospels you read, suggests to you that you can profess to love the son and forget about the big kahuna, you are deluded. You cannot enter the gates of Heaven until you accept the divine law of the father. Read your gospel, it tells you so.

As for my self rightousnees it not there I just object to the politcal correct protection afforded islam out of shear reflex because it is called a religion and it is popular Nazism was also popular it had a guide book and it was ignored Islam has one aas well It should not be ignored.
the two books are evil twins. promoting vile behavior.

Dear boy, I am not a Rovian practitoner, and when I speak to religion, I speak to religion, not your fetid misinterpretations of same, for there is no politics in Heaven. My point is simple really, you are attempting to assemble hatred toward an entire religious creed by your vitriole, which goes against the principle of the very spirit whom you preach to me as being your beacon; Christ. And I say to you in that regard, that you do so to popularize the evil against man because you have been seduced by the evil incarnate himself.

I am calling a spade a spade yes, because, were I not to speak against your verisimilitude, you would corrupt maleable minds, and that is not God's will.

WOW your're like, all the way unwound now.
springs and strings all twisted up and laying around.
Just clutter.