should America surrender to Islamic rule?‎

KAOS - your views on what should be done are intolerable to me, as I expected, however I'm glad that you had the courage of your opinion.

Deportation, hmmmm? Sounds like a plan to transform the Muslims worldwide into what you think they should be if they followed your interpretation of the Quran - piss them off so much that they WILL indeed, even the most peaceful of them, start killing on a larger scale. Then you can implement the plan that I sense behind the discourse here - since they're all in arms, drop a few nukes and exterminate them, as DrHoracid suggests.

If that happens, may God have mercy on our souls, we deserve the deepest of Hell.

rofl. you are truly amazing. how does any of what you say proove that we are sposed to go on a crusade to destroy the west?

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in All�h, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by All�h and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Isl�m) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

this is the only remotely possible quote that could support your belief. but did you understand the part where it says "until they pay the jizyah". ?

or the 2 other best selling translations which describe it as a tax?

this was applied to those non muslims living in muslim lands. and it shows how stupid you truly are. a moment ago you were saying that we were spose to kill all those who did not submit to us.

this quote proves you wrong on that. and so do the millions of christians living in the middle east.

i would like to see you as my local imam. how the muslims masses would laugh at you when you spurt your nonsense!

also if your going to use quotes post em from this site.

www.usc.edu...

where there are the 3 best known and respected translations.

and you have yet to show any quote that says we can make war against a people who we have made peace with.

you should know righteousness is a big part of islam.

also you are trying to say that i dont know what im talking about?

heh, on that all i will say is that ive had more experience with the jihadi types then you ever will.

saying that, i cant be bothered to continue this argument. ive had these arguments before, all your type do is constantly spurt out the same koranic quotes (conveniently ignoring posting the parts before or after the quotes or when they were revelead and how they were applied!)


EDIT: if you really think what you are saying is the truth, come and say it to the jihadis, osama, al zarqawi and the average muslim. even obl disagrees with you and he is a extremist.

you will find about 3-4%, maybe 5% if your lucky support you. good luck on your crusade to convince every1 including us muslims that we are spose to kill all non believers!!


[edit on 10-11-2004 by ys333]

KAOSKTRL, you are not quoting Qur'an.

I see that this has no point. In several other threads, a lot of members have pointed out gross misconceptions, generalisations and lack of basic knowledge of Islam that you, and some others, have showed. Still you are repeating the same thing over and over again.

I retreat from this rather pointless thread, which btw, has gone way off topic, I'm gonna waste my time in EU threads now

To the original question of the first page of this thread.

Instead of getting wrapped up in a theology debate, theoretical bedates and arguing if this is just sensationalist fear mongering or a reasonable question, let me give a simple reasonable answer.

If it was true, and an general, not extremist goal (let me clarify that..ANYONE's) ...then NO.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by craigandrew]

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice

So glad you posted this one I had forgotten about this little invasion scheme
in 17 Im forever in your debt.



17.16. And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a definite order (to obey All�h and be righteous) to those among them [or We (first) increase in number those of its population] who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction.


33. And do not kill anyone which All�h has forbidden, except for a just cause. And whoever is killed (intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [(to demand Qis�s, Law of Equality in punishment or to forgive, or to take Diya (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e he should not kill except the killer only). Verily, he is helped (by the Isl�mic law).

What is a just cuase
8.29. O you who believe! If you obey and fear All�h, He will grant you Furq�n a criterion [(to judge between right and wrong), or (Makhraj, i.e. making a way for you to get out from every difficulty)], and will expiate for you your sins, and forgive you, and All�h is the Owner of the Great Bounty.

What ever a muslim decides !
wait but there more

8.39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides All�h) and the religion (worship) will all be for All�h Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides All�h), then certainly, All�h is All-Seer of what they do.

Case closed

Originally posted by paperclip
KAOSKTRL, you are not quoting Qur'an.

I see that this has no point. In several other threads, a lot of members have pointed out gross misconceptions, generalisations and lack of basic knowledge of Islam that you, and some others, have showed. Still you are repeating the same thing over and over again.

I retreat from this rather pointless thread, which btw, has gone way off topic, I'm gonna waste my time in EU threads now

www.road-to-heaven.com...
No of course not
why would I quote the Quran .
Oh course its gross misconception and yak yak yak
Yes it is repeating the same thing over and over and over.
Im not suprised you disapprove. As a muslim I understand you have to go.
the kneejerk apologist will fill in for you.
they dont know any better.
But you see the dismal truth you cant refute it,
only take the Quran out of context and hope for the best.

I will not cooperate in the charade that Islam is tolerent or peacefull

Originally posted by ys333
rofl. you are truly amazing. how does any of what you say proove that we are sposed to go on a crusade to destroy the west?

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in All�h, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by All�h and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Isl�m) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

this is the only remotely possible quote that could support your belief. but did you understand the part where it says "until they pay the jizyah". ?

or the 2 other best selling translations which describe it as a tax?

this was applied to those non muslims living in muslim lands. and it shows how stupid you truly are. a moment ago you were saying that we were spose to kill all those who did not submit to us.

this quote proves you wrong on that. and so do the millions of christians living in the middle east.

i would like to see you as my local imam. how the muslims masses would laugh at you when you spurt your nonsense!

also if your going to use quotes post em from this site.

www.usc.edu...

where there are the 3 best known and respected translations.

and you have yet to show any quote that says we can make war against a people who we have made peace with.

you should know righteousness is a big part of islam.

also you are trying to say that i dont know what im talking about?

heh, on that all i will say is that ive had more experience with the jihadi types then you ever will.

saying that, i cant be bothered to continue this argument. ive had these arguments before, all your type do is constantly spurt out the same koranic quotes (conveniently ignoring posting the parts before or after the quotes or when they were revelead and how they were applied!)


EDIT: if you really think what you are saying is the truth, come and say it to the jihadis, osama, al zarqawi and the average muslim. even obl disagrees with you and he is a extremist.

you will find about 3-4%, maybe 5% if your lucky support you. good luck on your crusade to convince every1 including us muslims that we are spose to kill all non believers!!


[edit on 10-11-2004 by ys333]

I frequently post much more from the Quran than is needed to show what is ment I can not be bother to post the entire Quran on each post .

Just embrace Islam for what it is fundementally a conquerer religion not a relgion of peace .You wont have to explain Islam after that.

KAOSKTRL....
Dude!

I just realised that you are not aware of who "we" in Qur'an is.

Ehem, the very basic concept of Qur'an is that GOD is talking there, NOT Mohammad. The very basic difference between the Bible and Quran, and the FIRST thing pointed out by knowledgable scholars, is that Bible is about the words and deeds of Jesus, it is Jesus speaking there, while Qur'an is about words of GOD. "We" is actually a mistranslation of arabic language. The literal translation is "we" but the equivalent of it in english language in this context is "I", as in GOD, not Mohammad or anybody else.
Another basic concept of Islam is GOD's punishment, only God punishes whole nations, cities, kingdoms, etc, etc. Similar concept is found in ALL religions, the wrath of God. So "we will destroy" means God will destroy, preferably in form of fire, rocks and lot of smoke

You might wanna re-read everything you read before, I guess this puts the whole thing into a different perspective.

Ok, now I'm gone.

I will guess you have me on ignore by now so this will be for the benifit of those playing along at home

007.003 �Follow the Revelation given to you from your Lord and follow not as protectors other than Him [third person]. Little do you remember My [first person, singular] warning. How many towns have We [plural] destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them. No cry did they utter but: �We were wrong-doers.��

All we ever hear from these muslim extremists is bravdo and hollow threats, nothing more. The AQ terroists are cowards who don't like a straight fight. When they are confronted by out troops they hide behind women and children. Weak as urine in my book.

All the best to the USMC and the RAR (Royal Australian Regiment)

Thanks for the sentiment buddy but unless we flew some in overnight the RAR are for the most part home in Oz, with some guarding facilities in and around Baghdad where there are Australians.

If any of our guys are on exchange serving with the forces in Falluja....good luck guys.

***WARNING: LONG POST***

If we didn't fight for our country then we wouldn't deserve to have a constituion. That's ridiculous plus you put very little thought into it, a person like you; should be sent to a thearpist for a reality check. Our constitution a national symbol representing our independence from Britain, in such a case; our patriotism would be too great to surrender to a country that would emphasise religion that greatly which would be detremenal to our politics.

Just because a thing which we're the underdogs in (us VS the middle east basically), doesn't mean that we would give all our rights up over it. In 1941-1945 we fought a much stronger, valiant enemy; Hilter and the Japanese. The Japanese bombed pearl harbor in the wake of us going to world war two, and we attacked Japan back and won in a constant air and sea battle; and we brought down Germany the same. Then influencing countries to not turn to communism as a last resort was a key thing which fully succeeded in our nation becoming a first world country. My point is, no matter how serious the situation was we always held the torch of justice and prevailed through the unseemingly high odds against us. We will not give up and sacrifice ourselves to be ruled by a 3rd world country, that would go against everything we've ever thought for.

Ibis- Many thought Muhammad really must be a prophet because he seemed to have divine favor. Meanwhile, he was attacking caravans during sacred months of truce and justifying it by "revelation" from God

Let�s do some comparisons for Ibis and Kaosktrl, since they seem to think that muslims hold a monopoly on evil, and so cut to the chase here and reveal exactly how you both hide behind bigotry, hate and narrow-mindedness to excoriate a people for doing exactly what the Jews did without the slightest thought that your religious beliefs are based on the same murderous concepts as you portray theirs to be. Like it or not, your history abounds with the same malevolence invoked in the name of your God. Of course I anticipate your rush to defence to claim that Jesus is your Lord and he incites no such thing, so I remind you, that without the record of the Jews, Christians would know nothing of the God, the father of Jesus, for his references of belief in him are entirely dependent on your knowing about his history and his father. Here are but a few of the hundreds of heinous acts supposedly sanctioned and or demanded by your God, why, I�ll even match you two for one, possibly even three for one, if you so choose:

Ex:17:8:9 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim. And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men and go out, fight with Amalek; tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

Ex.20:23:24 For mine Angel shall go before thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites and the Perizzites, and The Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works; but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.

Ex. 32:27 And he saith unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Num.15:32&35 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that had gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day� And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones�

Deut. 2:32:34 Then Sihon came out against us,he and all his people to fight at Jahaz. And the Lord our God delivered him before us; ands we smote him, and his sons and all his people. And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

Deut: 13:6:9�If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying Let us go and serve other Gods, which thou hast not known,�Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Cruel wasn�t he? Which God is worse when it comes to demanding death for infidels, the one you believe is not Allah; yours, or Allah? Moses did a damn fine job of slaughtering no? Or was his slaughtering ways easier to accept than Muhammeds? Looks to me like they all play exactly the same game.

SomewhereinBetween, you're basing that the U.S. will lose just based upon something written in propeganda form from a book created in order to manipulate people to be converting them into Muslim as fact, as a "Scare tactic"? It's ironic that most of the people seem to be quoting random things in the major book fo their religion, which completely makes them lose their credibility.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by NWObringer]

Originally posted by NWObringer
SomewhereinBetween, you're basing that the U.S. will lose just based upon something written in propeganda form from a book created in order to manipulate people to be converting them into Muslim as fact, as a "Scare tactic"? It's ironic that most of the people seem to be quoting random things in the major book fo their religion, whereas they should post real facts.

I am? Where exactly am I saying anything about the US losing, much less based on whatever the rest of your statement is trying to convey? And what facts have I failed to post? Perhaps your Bible excludes Exodus and deuteronomy. Kindly provide a lucid restatement, and thank you.

Originally posted by SomewhereinBetween

Originally posted by NWObringer
SomewhereinBetween, you're basing that the U.S. will lose just based upon something written in propeganda form from a book created in order to manipulate people to be converting them into Muslim as fact, as a "Scare tactic"? It's ironic that most of the people seem to be quoting random things in the major book fo their religion, whereas they should post real facts.

I am? Where exactly am I saying anything about the US losing, much less based on whatever the rest of your statement is trying to convey? And what facts have I failed to post? Perhaps your Bible excludes Exodus and deuteronomy. Kindly provide a lucid restatement, and thank you.

No, I was not saying that you were pointing out the U.S. was losing. In order to have credibility, you need to post websites and links to your claims. Those quotes you pulled out could be made by someone like Nostradamous, who was proven fake several times. I am a religious atheist, meaning I believe in relgious principles but I NEVER TAKE ANYTHING WHICH IS WRITTEN IN RELIGION SERIOUSLY; so my view is based upon my own, and not manipulated by a major propeganda machine.

Originally posted by mwm1331
Why should we surrender to muslims when Europe is doing so much better of a job at it than we ever could?

Thats funny!

It does seem that some of the EU countries are having problems with Islam now, I mean even the Great French are!

Originally posted by NWObringer
No, I was not saying that you were pointing out the U.S. was losing. In order to have credibility, you need to post websites and links to your claims. Those quotes you pulled out could be made by someone like Nostradamous, who was proven fake several times. I am a religious atheist, meaning I believe in relgious principles but I NEVER TAKE ANYTHING WHICH IS WRITTEN IN RELIGION SERIOUSLY; so my view is based upon my own, and not manipulated by a major propeganda machine.

Oh good Lord, in all seriousness, you really should not have posted to me the first time, and then followed up with this. Pray tell, what did people do before the onset of the internet when information was provided and links were not available? Some things when discussed are "known knowns" as a certain official likes to claim, some things need only a reference, as in the book, chapter and verses.

Those quotes my friend can be found in the Old Testament books 2, 4 and 5.

If you believe the information contained within the quotes to be propaganda, then we are in agreement. Other than that I have no idea what point you try to make.

If your going to attack Christanity use the New testement and start your own thread.
You can not make Islam good by making other things bad .
To clear things up for you Hitler was not a Christian the inqusistion was not spawned by the gospel of christ and the crusades were cause by islamic imperialsim..

Well since the thread in which I asked about the Jinn was closed and also the questions about the encounter with Gabriel 'possibly' being evil in nature, I thought I would ask just what is the Islamic answer to this?


Allah - the Moon God


The Archeology of The Middle East
The religion of Islam has as its focus of worship a deity by the name of "Allah." The Muslims claim that Allah in pre-Islamic times was the biblical God of the Patriarchs, prophets, and apostles. The issue is thus one of continuity. Was "Allah" the biblical God or a pagan god in Arabia during pre-Islamic times? The Muslim's claim of continuity is essential to their attempt to convert Jews and Christians for if "Allah" is part of the flow of divine revelation in Scripture, then it is the next step in biblical religion. Thus we should all become Muslims. But, on the other hand, if Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan deity, then its core claim is refuted. Religious claims often fall before the results of hard sciences such as archeology. We can endlessly speculate about the past or go and dig it up and see what the evidence reveals. This is the only way to find out the truth concerning the origins of Allah. As we shall see, the hard evidence demonstrates that the god Allah was a pagan deity. In fact, he was the Moon-god who was married to the sun goddess and the stars were his daughters.

SNIP


CONCLUSION

The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc.

The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.


www.biblebelievers.org.au...



[edit on 10-11-2004 by edsinger]