should America surrender to Islamic rule?‎

Okay, the name calling stops now! If you believe that someone is uninformed on a subject, then please call their bluff by showing proof of your point of view. How about some quotes from the Koran to back up your points? Does Islam require the killing off non-Muslims? Let's see it from a quote in the Koran.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Prove it? You've never read the koran have you? It clearly does not call on muslims to kill non muslims. Jews, christians, zorasterians, and hindus lived peacefully under theocratic islamic rule in the past.

YOU prove that it says this, you lying little slanderer. Good people can not and will not let pathetic pigs like you make these plainly false statements unopposed.

What of the people who choose not to live underIslam will not pay the jizya will not submit to the superior nature of islam will not convert
What is the solution?

"When an infidel's country is conquered by a Muslim ruler, its inhabitants are offered three alternatives:

1. the reception of Islam, in which case the conquered became enfranchised citizens of the Muslim state
2. the payment of Jizya tax, by which unbelievers obtained "protection" and became Dhimmis, provided they were not idolaters, and
3. death by the sword to those who would not pay the Jizya tax."

(Dictionary of Islam, pg.243).

I think this is a pretty pointless topic since we have invading troops over there and not vise-versa. It doesn't look like American will have to submit to any Islamic rule anytime in the foreseeable future. I'm leaning towards the U.S. becoming more secular and rejecting any attempt by a religious group to influence it's laws. The efforts by evangelical Christians in this last election may have been the final straw. If anything we'll see laws rejecting religion as a whole.

KAOS - You still haven't answered my question. What do you recommend the US do to stop this "onslaught" of Muslims?

Close the borders to Muslims?
Make their entry conditional to conversion to Christianity?
Neuter the men?

It's easy to accuse Islam of coming for us. It's not so easy to read into what these accusations imply as to the actions that should follow.

I think turning the mid-east into glass is a good start. No hate here just a look at history and reading the Koran. Fact is Fact us or them.

Originally posted by dbates
Okay, the name calling stops now! If you believe that someone is uninformed on a subject, then please call their bluff by showing proof of your point of view. How about some quotes from the Koran to back up your points? Does Islam require the killing off non-Muslims? Let's see it from a quote in the Koran.

Sorry you had to wait did not see your post I have a lot more let me know if you want more.

www.road-to-heaven.com...

8.39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides All�h) and the religion (worship) will all be for All�h Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides All�h), then certainly, All�h is All-Seer of what they do.

www.road-to-heaven.com...

9.111. Verily, All�h has purchased of the believers their lives and their properties; for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise. They fight in All�h's Cause, so they kill (others) and are killed. It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Taur�t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and the Qur'�n. And who is truer to his covenant than All�h? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. That is the supreme success .

9.29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in All�h, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by All�h and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Isl�m) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

9.30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of All�h, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of All�h. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. All�h's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!

9.31. They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides All�h (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by All�h), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taur�t (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Il�h (God - All�h) L� il�ha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) . Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."

9.32. They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish All�h's Light (with which Muhammad has been sent - Isl�mic Monotheism) with their mouths, but All�h will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the K�fir�n (disbelievers) hate (it).

9.33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad ) with guidance and the religion of truth (Isl�m), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrik�n (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of All�h) hate (it).

as a muslim and one who has been on so called "extremist sites" i feel i had to register just to post in this thread.

the initial poster is right there are a few muslims who want constant war and aggressive war. these people use the hadith for their justification. the hadith are a collection of quotes written down by people over the years and are sposed to be sayings from the prophet mohammad. since these hadiths have been written down by all sorts of people they often conflict with the teachings of the quran which in arabic is the same as the 1 around mohammads time. whereas some hadiths are very unreliable and sometimes are even made by people who have a certain agenda.

therefore we use the koran as the final judgement.

EDIT: to make it clear, there is a quote in your bible which says kill all the people, women and children. this is obviously not representable of your faith. and you know that bible has been changed by people with an agenda.

ask any muslim, we do not want your lands, we dont care. we want security and peace in ours.


in the koran it tells us that there is no way for us to war against another people(muslim or non muslim) once we have made peace. i have read the koran numerous times and i know this quote and few others which mean the same thing are defnitely there.

there are no quotes in there which say we can launch an aggressive war against a people simply because they are not muslim. there are quotes which tells us to be kind to those non muslim who do not kick us out of our homes.

the mujahideen are fighting in iraq for the following reasons:

1. in muslim countries only shariah can prevail, in every single muslim country in the world there is no shariah. the rulers of these muslim countries are corrupt and often are supported by the west( eg saudi arabia). it is not possible for the mujahideen (since they are in such a small number) to defeat all these countries. the best way to do it is to stop their funding.

2. america has supported israel since its birth, it has killed millions of innocent iraqis with its sanctions and supports regimes like saudi. so logically they are the enemy.

so the majority of the mujahideen want shariah and khilafah , this is their goal for the jihad. this is osamas goal. he has said any country that does not attack us will not be attacked. al zarqawis group issued a similar statment recently (the 1 where they called for release of margaret hassan).

however there is a minority who are hellbent on evil. you will see these people asking in the mosques whether they can rob any1 not involved in the jihad, etc. these are people who are disaffected with society, they are often outcasts and criminals. once they know that their goals are not supported by most muslims they form their own groups.

the main jihadi movement does not represent these people, the main jihadi movement represents the average muslim who wants justice and law in his country.



the reality of the situation is this. america invaded afghanistan, iraq. america supports israel, put sanctions on iraq (along with its allies) and america is the 1 who wants to put their way of life on other people.

they see khilafah as a threat to them and so they try to put their way of life (democracy) on muslims. they have no right to do this, they are our lands and in them we are the ones who should rule.


[edit on 10-11-2004 by ys333]

Originally posted by DrHoracid
I think turning the mid-east into glass is a good start.

And what about the non muslims in the middle east? Even genoicide has to have some limits

No hate here

Oh, no, no hate at all, just a causual call for the destruction of every living person in an entire section of the planet. Nope, nothing to do with hate.

just a look at history

the History of islam shows that it went thru a very sucessul expansion stage, gaining converts peacfully and forcefully and establishing an unopposed theocratic regional empire. Inspite of that they allowed jew, christians, hindu, buddhists, and even fire worshippers to exist in peace in their territory.

and reading the Koran.

Oh really? And just what portions of the Koran demand that non-muslims be converted or killed? Now there are portions that call for non muslims living with in islamdom being driven out, and another portion that puts different rules of war on fighting 'invaders' as opposed to people on the perhiphery, but also keep in mind that these sections, i should think, would probably have been composed when 'islamdom' was the south part of the arabian pennisnsula, and that most of the people that they were conflicting with were paganistic arabs.

us or them.

Personally, if I was engaged in a life or death struggle with another people i would hate them. But you pretend not to. Interesting. What else are you hiding? Could it be that you have no idea what you are talking about?

This is whats called a "Pharm Thread" in the business. These usually get deleted within seconds of posting..

a wise man once said the appropriate response to fascism is ridicule....

This topic is ridiculous...

Originally posted by Otts
KAOS - You still haven't answered my question. What do you recommend the US do to stop this "onslaught" of Muslims?

Close the borders to Muslims?
Make their entry conditional to conversion to Christianity?
Neuter the men?

It's easy to accuse Islam of coming for us. It's not so easy to read into what these accusations imply as to the actions that should follow.

I recomend education and honesty
Islam does not deserve the innocence by association it receives ‎
Islam is an intolerant totalitarian dogma dressed in religious cloth.‎
There is no compulsion in islam you can leave islam but it comes with a death sentence.‎
‎Islamic ‎Concept of Peace: Muslims want us to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion. ‎
They base their claim on the Arabic meaning of "Islam." The word for peace in Arabic is ‎Salaam, not Islam. Islam literally means "to surrender." Those who faced Muslim ;invaders were given two choices "surrender or die."
‎
Those who chose to surrender were given the choice of converting to Islam or paying the ‎Jizya which was a protection tax extracted from those who consened to live in submission ‎to Islamic rule.
These belonged to the "House of Peace" (Dar-us-Salaam).‎
All others belonged to the "House of War" (Dar-ul-Harb). America and all western ‎countries are in the "House of War" until they are fully under the control of Islam.

‎
Only when people understand the true nature of the enemy that has declared war on the ‎world 1400 years ago can we go to a way to deal with the enemy.‎
My part is to encourage people to learn the truth either by listening to me or by finding ‎out the truth while trying to prove me wrong.‎
I would defiantly end all immigration from muslim countries and begin deportation. I ‎would encourage the French Danish Swedish Italian Spanish and Germans Canadians to ‎do this as well


[edit on 10-11-2004 by KAOSKTRL]

since people wanted proof:

www.usc.edu...

004.089-90
YUSUFALI: They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

YUSUFALI: Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

I do not have every quote memorized , it took me some time to find this. so i cannot be bothered to post more.

the above site has 3 different translations of the quran. those who want to know what the quran says can easily find it.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by DrHoracid

just a look at history

the History of islam shows that it went thru a very sucessul expansion stage, gaining converts peacfully and forcefully and establishing an unopposed theocratic regional empire. Inspite of that they allowed jew, christians, hindu, buddhists, and even fire worshippers to exist in peace in their territory.

Some people do not wish to live uder Islamic rule
As for the peacefull expansion of Islam it is a myth



HISTORY OF PEACE


6th Century (500 - 599) C.E
www.usc.edu...

7th Century (600 - 699) C.E
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8th Century (700 - 799) C.E
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9th Century (800 - 899) C.E
www.usc.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">www.usc.edu...]
10th Century (900 - 999) C.E
[url]http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/century10.html
11th Century (1000 -1099) C.E
www.usc.edu...
12th Century (1100 - 1199) C.E
www.usc.edu...
13th Century (1200 - 1299) C.E
www.usc.edu...
14th Century (1300 - 1399) C.E
[url]
www.usc.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">www.usc.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">www.usc.edu...]
10th Century (900 - 999) C.E
[url]http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/history/chronology/century10.html
11th Century (1000 -1099) C.E
www.usc.edu...
12th Century (1100 - 1199) C.E
www.usc.edu...
13th Century (1200 - 1299) C.E
www.usc.edu...
14th Century (1300 - 1399) C.E
[url]
www.usc.edu...
15th Century (1400 - 1499) C.E
www.usc.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">
www.usc.edu...
16th Century (1500 - 1599) C.E

www.usc.edu...
17th Century (1600 - 1699) C.E

www.usc.edu...
18th Century (1700 - 1799) C.E

www.usc.edu...]
20th Century (1900 - 1999) C.E
[url]
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19th Century (1800 - 1899) C.E
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20th Century (1900 - 1999) C.E
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KAOS

What a challenging angle.

ys333

Thank you for your very succinct and comprehensible explanation of the hadith. Very few people understand what exists beyond the Qu'ran and how the non-core scriptures can be bent out of shape.

Quietly for you: www.islamicreformation.com... .

Christians, of course, can be guilty of doing exactly the same, all day long, to support and sustain their own views. "Holy scriptures" are so good for perpetuating conflict.


So... should Islam surrender to American rule?

Ok, to settle this, here are a few quotes from the quran...

Reward for righteous believers of other religions:

[3:113] They are not all the same; among the followers of the scripture, there are those who are righteous. They recite GOD's revelations through the night, and they fall prostrate.

[3:114] They believe in GOD and the Last Day, they advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and they hasten to do righteous works. These are the righteous.
[3:115] Any good they do will not go unrewarded. GOD is fully aware of the righteous

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.


Conversion to Islam is a personal choice, forceful conversion of non-believers is forbidden, since that negates God's will, as stated here:

[10:99] Had your Lord willed, all the people on earth would have believed. Do you want to force the people to become believers?
[10:100] No soul can believe except in accordance with GOD's will.

Just because a bunch of nutcases claims that they are allowed to do something, doesn't really make it so.

Murder, killing in Islam:

[6:151] Say, "Come let me tell you what your Lord has really prohibited for you: You shall not set up idols besides Him. You shall honor your parents. You shall not kill your children from fear of poverty - we provide for you and for them. You shall not commit gross sins, obvious or hidden. You shall not kill - GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. These are His commandments to you, that you may understand."

[17:33] You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice (hence the support America had from huge number of muslims after 9/11, Bin Laden ordered the killing of innocents and that gave you the right to enforce justice upon him)

Murder:
[4:93] Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.
(Note: believers are all who believe in God, followers of Qur'an are refered to as "submitters".)

[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people

--------------------------------------------

So, basicaly, this topic doesn't make much sense. There are terrorists and killers roaming this planet, and they should be dealt with, but there is no grand conspiracy of all Muslims and some dark plan of theirs to take over America and the world, and kill all non-Muslims.

The problem is not in the ideology of Qur'an itself, it is in several extreme sects of Islam, who mix parts of Qur'an, their own take on it, the evil within them (just because you have a muslim name, that doesnt mean you cant be a serial killer), tribal laws, greed, revenge and god knows what else, to create ideology that is known as extremist islam.

regarding your claim that we force people to come muslims, i must say you now even less then i thought you did.

even the extremists know we cannot do that.

002.256
YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

did we send muslims to malaysia/indonesia and take them over.

know this: 90% of muslims are true in their faith, they take it seriously. most of them would never change their religion.

we dont take it as a joke unlike you, i somehow doubt these are same people who you are saying was forced into islam.

also, theres literally millions of christians in the middle east, churches are still there. and if you know my religion as you claim you do you should know the speech the prophet made when he instructed us not to attack christians/jews.

if the average muslim heard what you claim of us they would either laugh or kill you.

laugh at you for being so ridicolous or kill you for making such a blasphemous statment on islam.

also know our prophet said that the main majority of muslims would always be in the right.

i advise you do some serious research and lose the bias in your heart which is clouding your judgement.

I will do these one at a time

[4:93] Anyone who kills a believer on purpose, his retribution is Hell, wherein he abides forever, GOD is angry with him, and condemns him, and has prepared for him a terrible retribution.
(Note: believers are all who believe in God, followers of Qur'an are refered to as "submitters".)
You can say that but is it not true.

56. And whosoever takes All�h, His Messenger, and those who have believed, as Protectors, then the party of All�h will be the victorious.

5.57. O you who believe! Take not for Auliy�' (protectors and helpers) those who take your religion for a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before you, nor from among the disbelievers; and fear All�h if you indeed are true believers.

5.58. And when you proclaim the call for As-Sal�t [call for the prayer (Adh�n)], they take it (but) as a mockery and fun; that is because they are a people who understand not.

5.59. Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in All�h, and in (the revelation) which has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are F�siq�n [rebellious and disobedient (to All�h)]?"

5.65. And if only the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) had believed (in Muhammad ) and warded off evil (sin, ascribing partners to All�h) and had become Al�Muttaq�n (the pious - see V.2:2) We would indeed have blotted out their sins and admitted them to Gardens of pleasure (in Paradise).

5.72. Surely, they have disbelieved who say: "All�h is the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary)." But the Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: "O Children of Israel! Worship All�h, my Lord and your Lord." Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with All�h, then All�h has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode . And for the Z�lim�n (polytheists and wrong�doers) there are no helpers.

5.73. Surely, disbelievers are those who said: "All�h is the third of the three (in a Trinity)." But there is no il�h (god) (none who has the right to be worshipped) but One Il�h (God -All�h). And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

www.road-to-heaven.com...
So there we have you not knowing what your talking about and being proved wrong
Oh but wait there more
you are trying to lie abiout something and expect people to be ignorent and cooperate dwith the charade well Im not going to cooperate I will refute your deceptions.
but there more.

KAOSKTRL, you are quoting verses which describe the difference in belief between Muslims, Jews and Christians. Nobody said there aren't any. But none of those verses says that all non-Muslims should be killed.
In fact, it states many many times in Qur'an that the final judgement is in God's hands, and not in ours.

you guys are like trianed rats or something this one has been exposed somemant times its got to be getting embarseing

[5:32] Because of this, we decreed for the Children of Israel that anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. And anyone who spares a life, it shall be as if he spared the lives of all the people


5.32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by All�h by committing the major sins) in the land!.

What is mischief?
well it turns out being a non muslims resisting Islam and hassling the Prophet

Ishaq:245 �Do you love Jews and their religion, you liver-hearted ass, and not Muhammad? Their religion will never march with ours�. Jews make false professions about Islam. So Allah sent down: �Satan wishes to lead them astray.� Ishaq:248 �Allah increases their sickness. A tormented doom awaits the Jews. Allah said, �They are mischief makers. They are fools. The Jews deny the truth and contradict what the Apostle has brought. I will mock them and let them continue to wander blindly.�

Ishaq:page 676 ��You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?� Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, �Will no one rid me of this woman?� Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet�s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer�s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, �You have helped Allah and His Apostle.� Umayr said. �She had five sons; should I feel guilty?� �No,� the Prophet answered. �Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.��

Prophet had their men killed, their woman
you kill the men rape the woman.

[edit on 10-11-2004 by KAOSKTRL]

Originally posted by paperclip
KAOSKTRL, you are quoting verses which describe the difference in belief between Muslims, Jews and Christians. Nobody said there aren't any. But none of those verses says that all non-Muslims should be killed.
In fact, it states many many times in Qur'an that the final judgement is in God's hands, and not in ours.

You were trying to suggest that Christians and Jews are believers ]" the people of the book that was true in the begining when Mohammed was trying to convince them of his prophit hood when he was rejected his tune changed,
either the Quran has no contridiction or new rules apply
the people of the book are infidels polythiest and damned by the time the Quran wraps up with the final suras 2, 9, 5, 8,
Islam requires me to be ignorant of Islam so you can lie with impunity I will not cooperate