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Michael Hastings – “Foul Play Or Not” – Do you have a plausible theory?
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reply to post by WanDash
Thanks for staying on top of new articles about MH. I have been playing catch up these past 2 days. A lot to take in. I am like you in that I need time to reflect on all this. I may regret saying this, but I feel like I have read a lot of propaganda. Is there any proof that the interview was truly conducted with MH brother Jon? Parts of it seemed genuine, but much did not.
The Guy Montag thing has my propag detector pegging as well. It seems to pervasive on this MH case to be legit. Tries to take a reasoned middle ground approach, then steers your opinion. Always the earliest comments, and often the ones that get a response. Smells like the work of a small group of pros to me.
The Wallace article is helpful in some ways. I can understand the reluctance of friends of MH to be named when discussing his personal life. I have always felt that knowing the details of his marital relationship could be a key to understanding his mental state. His article alluded to problems between them, but did not provide enough info to be of use. Another propag tool. After disclosing early in the article that MH had a meeting scheduled for 2 days after his death for the purpose of sending info with a trusted courier that he deemed to sensitive to discuss on a phone; the article tried to infuse the idea that none of MH current projects were sensitive enough to warrant attention or concern of the Feds. No one wants to relate MH actions or the accident to the NSA story that was exploding in the Feds face in the last days of his life.
The more I read that tries to persuade my opinion without providing convincing evidence and facts, the more suspicious I become about the death of MH.
Thanks for staying on top of new articles about MH. I have been playing catch up these past 2 days. A lot to take in. I am like you in that I need time to reflect on all this. I may regret saying this, but I feel like I have read a lot of propaganda. Is there any proof that the interview was truly conducted with MH brother Jon? Parts of it seemed genuine, but much did not.
The Guy Montag thing has my propag detector pegging as well. It seems to pervasive on this MH case to be legit. Tries to take a reasoned middle ground approach, then steers your opinion. Always the earliest comments, and often the ones that get a response. Smells like the work of a small group of pros to me.
The Wallace article is helpful in some ways. I can understand the reluctance of friends of MH to be named when discussing his personal life. I have always felt that knowing the details of his marital relationship could be a key to understanding his mental state. His article alluded to problems between them, but did not provide enough info to be of use. Another propag tool. After disclosing early in the article that MH had a meeting scheduled for 2 days after his death for the purpose of sending info with a trusted courier that he deemed to sensitive to discuss on a phone; the article tried to infuse the idea that none of MH current projects were sensitive enough to warrant attention or concern of the Feds. No one wants to relate MH actions or the accident to the NSA story that was exploding in the Feds face in the last days of his life.
The more I read that tries to persuade my opinion without providing convincing evidence and facts, the more suspicious I become about the death of MH.
reply to post by barabajagal
Good to hear from you, barabajagal
There does seem to be a concerted effort (whether conspiratorial in nature, or simply a fashionable trend) among journalists and writers…to marginalize anyone that considers Assassination/Murder as a possible or probable explanation to this story.
They, likewise, each seem to go out of their respective ways to downplay his integrity (as a journalist, as a human being, as a son, brother, husband) and/or any of his achievements in said regard.
This, is sour grapes – if you ask me.
That’s just the way Life is…
In my eldest son’s Senior year of high school – he was the #1 passing quarterback in the particular state we lived in…BY FAR. In the nation, there were only a handful with stats that compared. Unfortunately for him – I was the head coach…(through a series of equally unfortunate circumstances)… The Athletic Director agreed that he should be the one talking to/contacting colleges & universities about the next level – but – he didn’t. Really should not have had to. It should have been “a given” that “the next level” would be clamoring at his doorstep.
He received only two offers…from states far away.
Point being – he worked for it – performed it – and earned it…but didn’t get it. While others with less talent, skill, etc…(but better Coaches)…were getting woo’d and wined and dined.
(In the end – it wouldn’t have mattered, anyway, as – in the All-State game the following summer, after only a few plays, a linebacker stepped on his hand, and crushed most of the bones… Took quite a while to mend, then rehabilitate…)
Again, though – my point is – SO WHAT? If Michael Hastings’ first claim to fame came from “being in the right place at the right time”? That’s really the way life is…
And, while many of the “writers” who seem so upset (I’m sure, they each thought they deserved the awards, accolades and ‘deals’ that MH got), go out of their way to let us know that there was nothing exceptional about his writing/s…I found him to be an excellent storyteller. So – to each, their own.
From what Ali Gharib said (in his musings shortly after June 18th) – it would appear that Elise Jordan was in L.A. the previous weekend. Likewise (from some other source, I don’t recall), she had supposedly been somewhat upset at not moving to L.A. with him.
Glad you noticed that apparent switchfoot on the scheduled meeting with Farwell’s associate, and that MH wasn’t working on anything worth getting killed for…
We KNOW that MH suspected (or, was convinced) that the Feds were at least keeping an eye on him… It permeated through most of the last things/acts we are aware of… Yet everyone ignores that (except to reiterate the FBI’s claims), and lays the whole of their arguments on what he did in high school and his first year of college…and that he esteemed Hunter S. Thompson with high regard…and that he thought the helicopter activity near his residence was beyond reasonable…and that his brother was convinced he’d slipped into another manic episode…
They ENTIRELY DISCOUNT the observations of those that were regularly around him… They discount the fact that he was excitedly talking “business” at 8 PM with a writing partner…and expect us to accept that he was in such a manic delusional state, that sometime after that conversation – he could no longer maintain the façade, and drove out of his mind, into a tree.
The accounts are too jerky.
Good to hear from you, barabajagal
There does seem to be a concerted effort (whether conspiratorial in nature, or simply a fashionable trend) among journalists and writers…to marginalize anyone that considers Assassination/Murder as a possible or probable explanation to this story.
They, likewise, each seem to go out of their respective ways to downplay his integrity (as a journalist, as a human being, as a son, brother, husband) and/or any of his achievements in said regard.
This, is sour grapes – if you ask me.
That’s just the way Life is…
In my eldest son’s Senior year of high school – he was the #1 passing quarterback in the particular state we lived in…BY FAR. In the nation, there were only a handful with stats that compared. Unfortunately for him – I was the head coach…(through a series of equally unfortunate circumstances)… The Athletic Director agreed that he should be the one talking to/contacting colleges & universities about the next level – but – he didn’t. Really should not have had to. It should have been “a given” that “the next level” would be clamoring at his doorstep.
He received only two offers…from states far away.
Point being – he worked for it – performed it – and earned it…but didn’t get it. While others with less talent, skill, etc…(but better Coaches)…were getting woo’d and wined and dined.
(In the end – it wouldn’t have mattered, anyway, as – in the All-State game the following summer, after only a few plays, a linebacker stepped on his hand, and crushed most of the bones… Took quite a while to mend, then rehabilitate…)
Again, though – my point is – SO WHAT? If Michael Hastings’ first claim to fame came from “being in the right place at the right time”? That’s really the way life is…
And, while many of the “writers” who seem so upset (I’m sure, they each thought they deserved the awards, accolades and ‘deals’ that MH got), go out of their way to let us know that there was nothing exceptional about his writing/s…I found him to be an excellent storyteller. So – to each, their own.
From what Ali Gharib said (in his musings shortly after June 18th) – it would appear that Elise Jordan was in L.A. the previous weekend. Likewise (from some other source, I don’t recall), she had supposedly been somewhat upset at not moving to L.A. with him.
Glad you noticed that apparent switchfoot on the scheduled meeting with Farwell’s associate, and that MH wasn’t working on anything worth getting killed for…
We KNOW that MH suspected (or, was convinced) that the Feds were at least keeping an eye on him… It permeated through most of the last things/acts we are aware of… Yet everyone ignores that (except to reiterate the FBI’s claims), and lays the whole of their arguments on what he did in high school and his first year of college…and that he esteemed Hunter S. Thompson with high regard…and that he thought the helicopter activity near his residence was beyond reasonable…and that his brother was convinced he’d slipped into another manic episode…
They ENTIRELY DISCOUNT the observations of those that were regularly around him… They discount the fact that he was excitedly talking “business” at 8 PM with a writing partner…and expect us to accept that he was in such a manic delusional state, that sometime after that conversation – he could no longer maintain the façade, and drove out of his mind, into a tree.
The accounts are too jerky.
reply to post by WanDash
What about the John McTiernan story he was working on that the brother talked about? He said they talked a lot about it. And then you have to add to all the hacking involved with the guy. And you also have two actors turned Governors. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura. Also have people playing political activist Alec Baldwin playing video games on the tarmac?
Anthony Pellicano who did the hacking for him is tied to Las Vegas. Also he is tied to another actor Steven Seagal who is tied to the hip with that Sheriff Arpio. Steven Seagal came from a background of the Mob before becoming a actor.
John McTiernan story does tie into politicians organized crime and Hollywood. I think the story really does step on some toes.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
What about the John McTiernan story he was working on that the brother talked about? He said they talked a lot about it. And then you have to add to all the hacking involved with the guy. And you also have two actors turned Governors. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura. Also have people playing political activist Alec Baldwin playing video games on the tarmac?
Anthony Pellicano who did the hacking for him is tied to Las Vegas. Also he is tied to another actor Steven Seagal who is tied to the hip with that Sheriff Arpio. Steven Seagal came from a background of the Mob before becoming a actor.
John McTiernan story does tie into politicians organized crime and Hollywood. I think the story really does step on some toes.
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
JBA2848
reply to post by WanDash
...What about the John McTiernan story he was working on that the brother talked about? He said they talked a lot about it. And then you have to add to all the hacking involved with the guy. And you also have two actors turned Governors. Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jesse Ventura. Also have people playing political activist Alec Baldwin playing video games on the tarmac?
...Anthony Pellicano who did the hacking for him is tied to Las Vegas. Also he is tied to another actor Steven Seagal who is tied to the hip with that Sheriff Arpio. Steven Seagal came from a background of the Mob before becoming a actor.
...John McTiernan story does tie into politicians organized crime and Hollywood. I think the story really does step on some toes.
...en.wikipedia.org...
...en.wikipedia.org...
Thanks for the tips.
The McTiernan story... ...
I don't know how someone can raise the argument (with straight face) - "why would the government (or whomever) go through so much trouble (expense, time, resources, effort, etc...) to take out MH?"...when said government will waste the kind of resources, obviously involved, to "teach McTiernan a lesson".
Law enforcement (minimally) lies all the time... They argue - "it takes a crook to catch a crook".
Disgusting!
reply to post by WanDash
Two articles over the past week or more…
The first:
Reckless and Inspired: An Interview With Jonathan Hastings About His Brother, the Journalist Michael Hastings
This is just as the title states – an interview with Michael’s older brother, Jonathan Hastings.
Next: "Who Killed Michael Hastings..."
This is a 7 page (Internet pages) attempt at molding the story of Michael Hastings’ life and career in such a fashion as to appear objective…but failing with an obvious slant…and closing with some fairly well-witted (but hypocritically demeaning) slams against anyone who does not accept – WITHOUT QUESTION!!!!! – that Michael Hastings was simply the victim of his own reckless & full-throttled (or impaired) psyche.
Both articles attempt to show that Michael Hastings had a life-long proclivity for excessive and obtuse behavior… And, both articles attempt to show (without blatantly stating it) that this “excessive obtuseness” was WHO Michael Hastings was…and, regardless of what impressions others (who had known and been acquainted for any-less than his whole life) might have perceived in his final months, weeks, days &/or hours …said impressions were worthless, if they did not hold to the party-line – being – he went off his rocker, and died in the midst of some kind of hysterically-paranoid manic-episode.
As has been my purpose and intent, since the start…we have attempted to determine, from the hard evidence at hand…precisely (as precisely as the quality and quantity of evidence will allow) what happened…such that we could weigh any “Theory” (whether Official, Conspiracy or simply Alternative) against/with the facts, and see if it fits/works.
While I could spend time defending the right to and need for “conspiracy theories”…I’m really not that offended. That’s really what TH*Y would prefer we do… Spend all our time defending ourselves & the right to conspiracise…rather than sticking to the agenda (figuring it out).
We are told –
• People that knew him for many years were growing alarmed (or, at least – concerned) at his behavior for a number of months prior to his death
• His next door neighbor & friend – Jordanna Thigpen – said that he had started becoming fairly vocal about the government’s surveillance and snooping on investigative journalists…beginning some-time in May (presumably around or after May 15th)
• He had grown concerned at the number of helicopters around/about his ‘hood’ in the last month or so…
• A phone conversation between he and his elder brother, only two to four days before his death, was so alarming, that said elder brother was convinced he (MH) had plunged headlong into a manic state/episode – and, said elder brother immediately arranged to fly to L.A. the following day…to attempt to coax (or – if need be, with the aid of their even younger brother – strong-arm) MH into detox/rehab, either in L.A., or back in Vermont…
My reading has only provided evidence of Jonathan Hastings being with Michael’ on the day of June 17th. This might be accurate – might not. In any case – I don’t think he was with him for more than one more day, if that.
Jonathan Hastings* said that…if he had not been with Michael the day before his death…he (like so many interested parties) might suspect foul play to be afoot…too.
But…he was convinced that MH’s mental/psychological state was such that…a “No Foul Play” argument was both justified and accurate. (further meaning – ‘no reason to question past…he drove too fast, and died’)
I am not vested in a particular “Conspiracy Theory Camp/Club” – so – I have nothing to gain or lose on the answers to the questions presented by the odd case of Michael Hastings’ demise.
I side with Conspiracy Theorists in the sense of the right to question…until the answers satisfy.
I, likewise, know and recognize that…sometimes…all of the questions cannot (will not) be satisfied…
…The evidence needed…either went with the person that is no longer here…or…was burned away in the fire…or…has been hidden (deleted) by unseen faces, forces &/or names… … …
Nevertheless - - - - we are being told - - - - by the same group of media mongrels that MH railed against for their acquiescence, obeisance and subservience to the company line…that some, heretofore unspecified explanation for the events that unfolded and resulted in the fiery crash that ended the life of Michael Hastings…could not be answered with – assassination / murder.
Yet - - - - they do not even know what happened…
They broadcast – “These conspiracy theorists question the trajectory of the engine, and how far it travelled!!!”…
… But …have NO IDEA, themselves…how to explain it…
They broadcast – “These conspiracy theorists question the fire & explosion…”
Yet – they don’t even know the sequence of events…
They don’t even know that the engine was gone…
No fuel-line rupture would have been possible…if the utility cage was sent to the end of the block…and the u-shaped PVC water-pipe was sent to the end of the block…AND…the under-carriage-shield made it all the way to the tree…
THEY KNOW NONE OF THIS – YET, have the audacity to denounce anyone-else’s’s’s’s attempts at arriving at reasonable explanations…within the context of their own world view/s… …?
I am so impressed with the quality and standards of those who count themselves worthy of telling the rest of us…what we should think and accept…
Disgusted Regards to the MEDIA of the 21st Century!
...(to be continued)...
Two articles over the past week or more…
The first:
Reckless and Inspired: An Interview With Jonathan Hastings About His Brother, the Journalist Michael Hastings
This is just as the title states – an interview with Michael’s older brother, Jonathan Hastings.
Next: "Who Killed Michael Hastings..."
This is a 7 page (Internet pages) attempt at molding the story of Michael Hastings’ life and career in such a fashion as to appear objective…but failing with an obvious slant…and closing with some fairly well-witted (but hypocritically demeaning) slams against anyone who does not accept – WITHOUT QUESTION!!!!! – that Michael Hastings was simply the victim of his own reckless & full-throttled (or impaired) psyche.
Both articles attempt to show that Michael Hastings had a life-long proclivity for excessive and obtuse behavior… And, both articles attempt to show (without blatantly stating it) that this “excessive obtuseness” was WHO Michael Hastings was…and, regardless of what impressions others (who had known and been acquainted for any-less than his whole life) might have perceived in his final months, weeks, days &/or hours …said impressions were worthless, if they did not hold to the party-line – being – he went off his rocker, and died in the midst of some kind of hysterically-paranoid manic-episode.
As has been my purpose and intent, since the start…we have attempted to determine, from the hard evidence at hand…precisely (as precisely as the quality and quantity of evidence will allow) what happened…such that we could weigh any “Theory” (whether Official, Conspiracy or simply Alternative) against/with the facts, and see if it fits/works.
While I could spend time defending the right to and need for “conspiracy theories”…I’m really not that offended. That’s really what TH*Y would prefer we do… Spend all our time defending ourselves & the right to conspiracise…rather than sticking to the agenda (figuring it out).
We are told –
• People that knew him for many years were growing alarmed (or, at least – concerned) at his behavior for a number of months prior to his death
• His next door neighbor & friend – Jordanna Thigpen – said that he had started becoming fairly vocal about the government’s surveillance and snooping on investigative journalists…beginning some-time in May (presumably around or after May 15th)
• He had grown concerned at the number of helicopters around/about his ‘hood’ in the last month or so…
• A phone conversation between he and his elder brother, only two to four days before his death, was so alarming, that said elder brother was convinced he (MH) had plunged headlong into a manic state/episode – and, said elder brother immediately arranged to fly to L.A. the following day…to attempt to coax (or – if need be, with the aid of their even younger brother – strong-arm) MH into detox/rehab, either in L.A., or back in Vermont…
My reading has only provided evidence of Jonathan Hastings being with Michael’ on the day of June 17th. This might be accurate – might not. In any case – I don’t think he was with him for more than one more day, if that.
Jonathan Hastings* said that…if he had not been with Michael the day before his death…he (like so many interested parties) might suspect foul play to be afoot…too.
But…he was convinced that MH’s mental/psychological state was such that…a “No Foul Play” argument was both justified and accurate. (further meaning – ‘no reason to question past…he drove too fast, and died’)
I am not vested in a particular “Conspiracy Theory Camp/Club” – so – I have nothing to gain or lose on the answers to the questions presented by the odd case of Michael Hastings’ demise.
I side with Conspiracy Theorists in the sense of the right to question…until the answers satisfy.
I, likewise, know and recognize that…sometimes…all of the questions cannot (will not) be satisfied…
…The evidence needed…either went with the person that is no longer here…or…was burned away in the fire…or…has been hidden (deleted) by unseen faces, forces &/or names… … …
Nevertheless - - - - we are being told - - - - by the same group of media mongrels that MH railed against for their acquiescence, obeisance and subservience to the company line…that some, heretofore unspecified explanation for the events that unfolded and resulted in the fiery crash that ended the life of Michael Hastings…could not be answered with – assassination / murder.
Yet - - - - they do not even know what happened…
They broadcast – “These conspiracy theorists question the trajectory of the engine, and how far it travelled!!!”…
… But …have NO IDEA, themselves…how to explain it…
They broadcast – “These conspiracy theorists question the fire & explosion…”
Yet – they don’t even know the sequence of events…
They don’t even know that the engine was gone…
No fuel-line rupture would have been possible…if the utility cage was sent to the end of the block…and the u-shaped PVC water-pipe was sent to the end of the block…AND…the under-carriage-shield made it all the way to the tree…
THEY KNOW NONE OF THIS – YET, have the audacity to denounce anyone-else’s’s’s’s attempts at arriving at reasonable explanations…within the context of their own world view/s… …?
I am so impressed with the quality and standards of those who count themselves worthy of telling the rest of us…what we should think and accept…
Disgusted Regards to the MEDIA of the 21st Century!
...(to be continued)...
edit on 11/14/2013 by WanDash because: a few changes
reply to post by WanDash
I feel your disgust of the state of media efforts to inform and influence the citizens of the world. After reading a few books on the history of intelligence agencies it is difficult to trust any media information. There are so many powerful institutions that have a history of using all forms of media to lie to message recipient. Lie is a strong word, but I feel it is the most accurate. Many other words have been used to describe the types, reasons, ways, etc. Bottom line, the truth is being hidden or distorted, a lie.
I feel your disgust of the state of media efforts to inform and influence the citizens of the world. After reading a few books on the history of intelligence agencies it is difficult to trust any media information. There are so many powerful institutions that have a history of using all forms of media to lie to message recipient. Lie is a strong word, but I feel it is the most accurate. Many other words have been used to describe the types, reasons, ways, etc. Bottom line, the truth is being hidden or distorted, a lie.
WanDash
reply to post by bowaconstricta
Thanks for the consolation, bowaconstricta.
I went to the article @rambobiggs tweeted...
In the comments, afterward - he was not a happy camper.
For the most part, I appreciated some "new info", but ultimately, it was a fail (imo).
In the spirit, however, of never letting new info go to waste, here are some excerpts and a few thoughts regarding the same...
From "Who Killed Michael Hastings..."
...On Saturday the 15th [of June], he [MH] called Matt Farwell, his writing partner, and said Farwell might be interviewed by the FBI. Farwell was unsettled. "He was being really cagey over the phone, which was odd, very odd"...said Farwell.
The article goes on, saying that Farwell said MH would not discuss whatever it was that he could/would not disclose over the phone - so, Farwell arranged a lunch date for Michael and a female friend of Farwell's for the following Thursday (June 20th)...such that MH could pass whatever information he had, to her...and she would deliver it back to Farwell (in Virginia) when she flew back.
Of course - the lunch meeting didn't take place.
We are already generally familiar with the following...but, it adds just a bit that I don't want to miss...
Sgt. Joe Biggs...hadn't spoken to Hastings in three months...but Hastings bcc'd him on the infamous email.
Biggs said "I tried calling him when I got that email...'cause I felt so #ing scared, because it didn't seem like him."
Biggs says he emailed BuzzFeed, too...and kept emailing them...but...they never responded...
Furthermore...(the article says)...Hastings had sent one of his I'm-being-investigated emails to WikiLeaks lawyer Jennifer Robinson.
Don't know if the article's author had another source than I have been privy to...or...what - but, the only information I have previously seen on this, was that MH called Jennifer Robinson.
This may not be important...but...if it is true - does this mean that Ms. Robinson was one of the Sendees on the list of Associates & Business Acquaintances in the same email Sgt. Biggs received? Or, was said "email" sent to her separately? (Again - presuming that this information is accurate.)
The week before his death, he told [Dave] Cullen (a friend & fellow writer) he was close to a deal to write a big book about Hollywood. He'd just finished a screenplay treatment based on another Rolling Stone piece he'd done, called "The Spy Who Cracked Up in the Cold," and his co-writer, Justin Kremer, spoke to him at eight o'clock the evening before he died. "He'd heard from his agent and was ready to go, and he was excited about portraying that world as he'd seen it onscreen," Kremer says.
In the end - we see that neither Farwell or MH's younger brother, Jeff, believed that he was in a state of mind to end his own life...
"I've deliberately rammed my truck into a stationary object to seek some quietus," says Farwell, who's written about his own post-Afghanistan struggles with PTSD, "and I know the emotional state he was in, and he was not in that state."
Jeff Hastings agrees: "One thing I will say with as much certainty as one person can have: He did not commit suicide. Mike wasn't planning on dying."
Will let this information simmer a while, before further comment.
Thanks AGAIN!
WanDash I continue to be very impressed by your insights.
While I am leaning towards MH dying as a result of paranoia and poor judgment during a meth binge (not basing that on the autopsy; but from the subtle clues I've picked up on in statements of friends and family ); my confidence in my opinion is challenged each time I catch up on your posts.
Something that has always puzzled me is the relationship between MH and his wife-- it struck me as distant/disconnected; not only by physical distance but also emotional distance.. It strikes me as a marriage on paper and not much more. Might you or anyone else have any thoughts on this?
NickDC202
...WanDash I continue to be very impressed by your insights.
...While I am leaning towards MH dying as a result of paranoia and poor judgment during a meth binge (not basing that on the autopsy; but from the subtle clues I've picked up on in statements of friends and family ); my confidence in my opinion is challenged each time I catch up on your posts.
...Something that has always puzzled me is the relationship between MH and his wife-- it struck me as distant/disconnected; not only by physical distance but also emotional distance.. It strikes me as a marriage on paper and not much more. Might you or anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Hey NickDC202 – good to hear from you!
I do have thoughts on the marital relationship…
Probably not very insightful or revealing…but – might as well add them to the mix…
From the start I considered it a strange combination – Investigative Journalist (National Security related) marrying directly into the National Security mix.
But then, when reading of her outrage at the New York Times…and how she defended him – claiming to be the one that transcribed from his tapes…etc… - my view started to change…
Then, Ali Gharib talking of the two get-togethers with them…as if it was a “pleasant” setting, which is often not the case when marriage vows are strained…
I do, though, think that she is dancing on a potential precipice, in that – anything she might say in contradiction to, or that would question Jonathan Hastings’ “claim to authority” (note – his statements and summary conclusions form the whole justification for the most accepted story-line that ends in No Foul Play) could simply add more pain, misery, etc…to an already tenuous situation/relationship.
I don’t know how I might react in a similar situation… Do I want to possibly start a war with the family of my deceased spouse…when I don’t necessarily know that they’re wrong?
I brought up, earlier in this thread, the whole “mother hen” issues that I’ve seen in more cases of “intervention” than I care to recall… In this case – it is looking, very convincingly, like the elder brother could wear that outfit well… I could be wrong – as always – but – quite conspicuous…
Those are just my thoughts on the topic.
Let me know what issues you might find with any of what I’ve put forward – or – your own take on it…
reply to post by WanDash
I have always felt that understanding the relationship between MH and his wife would add insight to his mental state at death. The Wallace article insinuated that there were marital problems. I can understand family and friends not wanting to be named when discussing this relationship. Wallace never ID's his sources on this matter. He insinuates that MH may have cheated on his wife and then asked forgiveness. He states that she was unhappy about MH going to live in LA without her. Interesting statements, but I do not see any reason to believe them. I noticed his brother did not comment on MH marriage.
Reviewing MH Vine video account leads me to believe MH went to Oxford MS on the weekend of May 18th for the wedding of a friend of Elise. He must have returned to NY the following week. He was in MSNBC studios on May 25th.
I have not found evidence of Ali Gharib being with MH and Elise in LA or NY shortly before his death. I read an article where he talked about time spent with them in either late 2012 or early 2013. He seemed to be a good friend of MH and Elise. Dave Cullen was another colleague and friend of MH. He is older than MH by several years. He seems genuine in his fondness for both Michael and Elise.
I have always felt that understanding the relationship between MH and his wife would add insight to his mental state at death. The Wallace article insinuated that there were marital problems. I can understand family and friends not wanting to be named when discussing this relationship. Wallace never ID's his sources on this matter. He insinuates that MH may have cheated on his wife and then asked forgiveness. He states that she was unhappy about MH going to live in LA without her. Interesting statements, but I do not see any reason to believe them. I noticed his brother did not comment on MH marriage.
Reviewing MH Vine video account leads me to believe MH went to Oxford MS on the weekend of May 18th for the wedding of a friend of Elise. He must have returned to NY the following week. He was in MSNBC studios on May 25th.
I have not found evidence of Ali Gharib being with MH and Elise in LA or NY shortly before his death. I read an article where he talked about time spent with them in either late 2012 or early 2013. He seemed to be a good friend of MH and Elise. Dave Cullen was another colleague and friend of MH. He is older than MH by several years. He seems genuine in his fondness for both Michael and Elise.
edit on 17-11-2013 by barabajagal
because: Spelling error
barabajagal
reply to post by WanDash
...I have always felt that understanding the relationship between MH and his wife would add insight to his mental state at death. The Wallace article insinuated that there were marital problems...
Seems no shortage of matrimonial experts have taken their shots at the relationship (from or at both sides of the equation). I put little to no stock in their views. Why? Because marriage (and Life, for that matter) isn't "one size fits all". It doesn't even fit into multiple categories...very neatly.
...He [Wallace] states that she was unhappy about MH going to live in LA without her. Interesting statements, but I do not see any reason to believe them. I noticed his brother did not comment on MH marriage...
I noticed this, as well.
IMO - the brother was not in a mood to share the spotlight...
...Reviewing MH Vine video account leads me to believe MH went to Oxford MS on the weekend of May 18th for the wedding of a friend of Elise. He must have returned to NY the following week. He was in MSNBC studios on May 25th.
...I have not found evidence of Ali Gharib being with MH and Elise in LA or NY shortly before his death. I read an article where he talked about time spent with them in either late 2012 or early 2013. He seemed to be a good friend of MH and Elise. Dave Cullen was another colleague and friend of MH. He is older than MH by several years. He seems genuine in his fondness for both Michael and Elise.
From Ali Gharib's Remembering Michael Hastings, dated June 20, 2013...
...I ended up at BuzzFeed's holiday party this past winter because Michael asked me to come. He introduced me to everyone there. He threw the after-party at his then-home with his wife, the national security commentator Elise Jordan. Michael and Elise had skipped out early from the BuzzFeed party itself to set up appetizers, just like they did the weekend before last when, instead of a rollicking start-up's-worth of revelers, just me and my cousin—a White House-based news producer who Michael had met on the trail—went over. We spent hours on the patio, just talking.
It is possible that I've misinterpreted what he said...but...he is clearly describing two events...with the second such event being placed at "the weekend before last".
reply to post by WanDash
Nice catch on the dates. It had been a while since I read that statement. Makes me wonder about the location of conversation. Makes you think he was talking about weekend of June 8th? It seems that Elise and Ali would have a good sense of MH mental state if they spent a number of hours with him 10 days before the accident.
Assuming the interview with Jon is truthful (not fabricated or coerced) it bothers me that he originally based his manic diagnosis on a phone conversation. There is evidence that MH was being very risk aware about using his phone. If Jon was not aware of this, a phone conversation would seem unusual. I would have thought he could have been able to make a more accurate diagnosis on his arrival. He does seem very sure of his assesment. I am sure he must have a lot of emotion about his brothers death. Assuming he is correct, it would be difficult knowing his arrival was the triggering event. MH was still functioning in reality to a large degree. He must have picked Jon up at the airport. They stopped at a clothing store. He had a phone conversation at 8PM, just 8 hours before death, about turning one of his stories into a screenplay. ( I recommend reading MH article on this imprisoned CIA officer. It is possible this is a very sensitive story that needs furthure investigation. I found the fact that while supposedly no longer in the CIA at the time of 911, he was living in NYC. Immediately following 911, he rejoined the CIA.)
I agree that Jon did seem to display many elements of sibling rivalry. I think he was obviously hurt by MH withdrawal from their relationship the past few years. I think both Jon and the interviewer displayed jealousy of MH success. I am sure they do know the flaws of MH better than many friends and colleagues. Jon said that the family always had to have MH back. He sure did not seem to in this interview. I am sure Jon and the entire Hastings family will have a quieter life now. I hope in their search for peace they will individually share their reflections on MH life and death.
Nice catch on the dates. It had been a while since I read that statement. Makes me wonder about the location of conversation. Makes you think he was talking about weekend of June 8th? It seems that Elise and Ali would have a good sense of MH mental state if they spent a number of hours with him 10 days before the accident.
Assuming the interview with Jon is truthful (not fabricated or coerced) it bothers me that he originally based his manic diagnosis on a phone conversation. There is evidence that MH was being very risk aware about using his phone. If Jon was not aware of this, a phone conversation would seem unusual. I would have thought he could have been able to make a more accurate diagnosis on his arrival. He does seem very sure of his assesment. I am sure he must have a lot of emotion about his brothers death. Assuming he is correct, it would be difficult knowing his arrival was the triggering event. MH was still functioning in reality to a large degree. He must have picked Jon up at the airport. They stopped at a clothing store. He had a phone conversation at 8PM, just 8 hours before death, about turning one of his stories into a screenplay. ( I recommend reading MH article on this imprisoned CIA officer. It is possible this is a very sensitive story that needs furthure investigation. I found the fact that while supposedly no longer in the CIA at the time of 911, he was living in NYC. Immediately following 911, he rejoined the CIA.)
I agree that Jon did seem to display many elements of sibling rivalry. I think he was obviously hurt by MH withdrawal from their relationship the past few years. I think both Jon and the interviewer displayed jealousy of MH success. I am sure they do know the flaws of MH better than many friends and colleagues. Jon said that the family always had to have MH back. He sure did not seem to in this interview. I am sure Jon and the entire Hastings family will have a quieter life now. I hope in their search for peace they will individually share their reflections on MH life and death.
reply to post by barabajagal
Actually – I had passed right over “the dates” until bowaconstricta brought it to my attention.
As you stated – I would think Elise & Ali would have a good feel for his mental/psychological state, having spent that much time together within (virtually) a week of the crash…
But – one point that seems to continue slipping through the cracks is – Jonathan’ said he’d had an extensive conversation with Michael’ two weeks earlier…and saw no reason for alarm. He ‘blamed’ that ‘oversight’ on the fact that the conversation centered-around (or – was entirely devoted to) the case/story Michael was working on, at the time – being the McTiernan story.
In saying that he ‘blamed’ the ‘oversight’…I am obviously referring to the fact that – he was saying that those who’d known MH for a long time had noticed the deterioration for months.
Did MH have reason to suspect that he was being watched…spied upon…followed…targeted…?
Of course he did.
The news released/revealed in the preceding month and a half, or so (not to mention Barrett Brown’s case, what he was seeing of the government’s shenanigans in the McTiernan case, and Snowden running for his life), and the fact that his work was devoted almost entirely to exposing the underbelly of the expanding behemoth…would place him on the ‘persons of interest’ list.
Was he being targeted?
Who knows...?
He could have been absolutely wrong about being the current subject of an FBI/Feds investigation…but right about inspecting & questioning every movement and shadow…to determine if it belongs…or is out of place.
JH spent no time in a war zone…
…no time wondering if the next mortar shell or whistling bullet had his name on it.
And, just because MH was (apparently) resorting to an almost electrical state of ‘high alert’…does not mean that he had ‘lost it’.
MH’s field of endeavor was not academic… but dynamic.
I am devoting this much consideration to JH’s “assessment”…because I KNOW that family – even those that believe they know a member better than anyone-else – CAN & DO get it wrong.
Just because someone looks like (or is) ‘a professor’…doesn’t mean they can’t/don’t get it wrong…(just like the rest of us)…
BTW – can you give a pointer to the article about the imprisoned CIA officer…(?)
Thanks!
Actually – I had passed right over “the dates” until bowaconstricta brought it to my attention.
As you stated – I would think Elise & Ali would have a good feel for his mental/psychological state, having spent that much time together within (virtually) a week of the crash…
But – one point that seems to continue slipping through the cracks is – Jonathan’ said he’d had an extensive conversation with Michael’ two weeks earlier…and saw no reason for alarm. He ‘blamed’ that ‘oversight’ on the fact that the conversation centered-around (or – was entirely devoted to) the case/story Michael was working on, at the time – being the McTiernan story.
In saying that he ‘blamed’ the ‘oversight’…I am obviously referring to the fact that – he was saying that those who’d known MH for a long time had noticed the deterioration for months.
Did MH have reason to suspect that he was being watched…spied upon…followed…targeted…?
Of course he did.
The news released/revealed in the preceding month and a half, or so (not to mention Barrett Brown’s case, what he was seeing of the government’s shenanigans in the McTiernan case, and Snowden running for his life), and the fact that his work was devoted almost entirely to exposing the underbelly of the expanding behemoth…would place him on the ‘persons of interest’ list.
Was he being targeted?
Who knows...?
He could have been absolutely wrong about being the current subject of an FBI/Feds investigation…but right about inspecting & questioning every movement and shadow…to determine if it belongs…or is out of place.
JH spent no time in a war zone…
…no time wondering if the next mortar shell or whistling bullet had his name on it.
And, just because MH was (apparently) resorting to an almost electrical state of ‘high alert’…does not mean that he had ‘lost it’.
MH’s field of endeavor was not academic… but dynamic.
I am devoting this much consideration to JH’s “assessment”…because I KNOW that family – even those that believe they know a member better than anyone-else – CAN & DO get it wrong.
Just because someone looks like (or is) ‘a professor’…doesn’t mean they can’t/don’t get it wrong…(just like the rest of us)…
BTW – can you give a pointer to the article about the imprisoned CIA officer…(?)
Thanks!
edit on 11/18/2013 by WanDash because: tidy up
reply to post by WanDash
The article about former CIA agent Andrew Warren was written for Rolling Stone. It is titled "The Spy Who Cracked Up in the Cold".
The article about former CIA agent Andrew Warren was written for Rolling Stone. It is titled "The Spy Who Cracked Up in the Cold".
barabajagal
..."The Spy Who Cracked Up in the Cold".
Thanks - I guess I should have known.
Good point that I should read it...
It's like a mirror of what others are saying of Michael Hastings (aside from the torture/interrogations and sexual abuse).
Gotta get back to work...but, will probably give further observations later.
WanDash
WanDash you continue provide tremendous material and your research skills continue to shine; thank you for your dedication to and nurturing of this thread.
The oddity about the relationship between husband and wife that has bothered me is that from what I've read they seem more like strangers than a passionate couple with a incredible bond/connection. Her physical absence when his brother went to allegedly intervene and right the purported downward spiral that MH was experiencing is key to me; it makes absolutely no logical sense.
I keep coming back to the notion that perhaps MH's previous meth (or other drug) use was far more excessive than has been shared by his family. Perhaps on the outside MH played the part of the non-drinker, non-druggie but when there was a lull in his work those demons would reappear; especially when he isolated himself. Such substance abuse could largely go unnoticed.
I keep going back to the notion that he knew he was about to be put into rehab and (a) His high speed drive was to meet his dealer who gave him a tight timetable to meet (b) He was rushing to meet his dealer to get there and back before his brother noticed he had sneaked out of the apartment.
That being said, whenever I read your insights I find the direction I'm going to be less credible.
reply to post by NickDC202
Thanks again, NickDC202
There’s no getting around our predilections. We each lean someway.
I have difficulty taking the brother’s summation for the same value others are giving it…
Primarily, because it is at odds with my understanding of human behavior.
If it was in line, or relatively in line with the observations of the majority of those that were around him with some degree of frequency, and/or with his public & professional demeanor through the last days and weeks…I would, no doubt, consider it capable of holding more water.
If it is not obvious, already – I am unable to reasonably justify the “out-of-control spiral” manifesting so abruptly.
I have, of course, read and considered many peoples’ guesses at what happened…that falls under the framework of “No Foul Play”.
Interestingly, enough (…and…I would really hope that this point “gets some traction”), they each, and every one require the same kind of “leap” as any of the (very few) “Foul Play” arguments.
Meaning – they each draw/rely on some otherwise unknown (to the rest of us) datum…to work.
In the scenario you presented – the reliance is on a “suspicion” of facts not known (heavier drug dependency than has been reported or admitted). And…the theory develops with the “suspicion” counted as a basic fact (otherwise, the odds grow very slim, that it would work), for answering “why” he would be “where” he was “when” he was, and doing “what” he was.
What I like about your scenario is – it’s a legitimate stab. It handles most of the angles related to the story.
If we were to take it, and try to work with it…though – – – unless he was just going for a “one-shot fix”, I don’t see him trying to sneak a significant “buy” into a detox/rehab facility. I don’t see him even acquiescing to his brother/s…and going to rehab/detox – much less, trying to get ‘one last fix’.
Additionally – while you or others may know that his younger brother was in agreement with the elder…on what needed to happen – I have not seen one corroboration or confirmation that the younger brother was, indeed, flying to L.A. that day.
In the interview, Jonathan Hastings said that – after he arrived in L.A. and saw Michael, he realized that Michael was not going to go “willingly”…and he “started to make arrangements with our brother” to fly out and possibly help Jonathan ‘force Mike’ into checking himself into a hospital or rehab center.
At no point have I seen Jeff (the younger brother) confirm that he had a flight booked for L.A. – No-one (that I have seen) has confirmed if he actually flew to L.A. – and, while Jonathan stated in the interview that the entire family was in-synch with his views on everything-related (to include the LAPD’s investigation) – someone (whose choice of language strongly resembles Jeff’s) does not appear to be such a happy camper, according to WhoWhatWhy.com…
Not once have I seen the younger brother come out and say – “Yeah – I agree with Jonathan. Michael had a manic drug-inspired episode, and slipped into the deep end before we could help.”
But, even then…none of this accounts for Detective White saying that he was actually going ‘somewhere’, that morning – being, Las Vegas.
Maybe you are comfortable with going through the various checks and potential checks at major airports with a fresh bag/(or whatever kind of container) of meth or crack (etc) on your person or in your bags - - - but - - - I would not be brave enough to take such a risk… And – ESPECIALLY – if I was already (as is one of the more widely accepted facts) paranoid out of my gourd that the Feds/NSA/FBI or whomever, was watching my every step/move.
I, likewise, think that – if he was indeed concerned (which – multiple witnesses seem to affirm) that someone had, or might have tampered with his car – unless he’d given in to the probability of ‘going to prison’ – I don’t see him using that same car (that was no doubt, being tracked…AT LEAST) to make a score.
And – more than almost any of that… The street-corner drug buy…does not seem to fit his station.
…
… … …
…
… … …Anyway… … … You shouldn’t have got me started again.
Have to break away for a bit, as I think I’m just rambling, right now.
I wanted to address more of what you brought up in this post and the last…but, need to get something to eat.
Thanks again, NickDC202
There’s no getting around our predilections. We each lean someway.
I have difficulty taking the brother’s summation for the same value others are giving it…
Primarily, because it is at odds with my understanding of human behavior.
If it was in line, or relatively in line with the observations of the majority of those that were around him with some degree of frequency, and/or with his public & professional demeanor through the last days and weeks…I would, no doubt, consider it capable of holding more water.
If it is not obvious, already – I am unable to reasonably justify the “out-of-control spiral” manifesting so abruptly.
I have, of course, read and considered many peoples’ guesses at what happened…that falls under the framework of “No Foul Play”.
Interestingly, enough (…and…I would really hope that this point “gets some traction”), they each, and every one require the same kind of “leap” as any of the (very few) “Foul Play” arguments.
Meaning – they each draw/rely on some otherwise unknown (to the rest of us) datum…to work.
In the scenario you presented – the reliance is on a “suspicion” of facts not known (heavier drug dependency than has been reported or admitted). And…the theory develops with the “suspicion” counted as a basic fact (otherwise, the odds grow very slim, that it would work), for answering “why” he would be “where” he was “when” he was, and doing “what” he was.
What I like about your scenario is – it’s a legitimate stab. It handles most of the angles related to the story.
If we were to take it, and try to work with it…though – – – unless he was just going for a “one-shot fix”, I don’t see him trying to sneak a significant “buy” into a detox/rehab facility. I don’t see him even acquiescing to his brother/s…and going to rehab/detox – much less, trying to get ‘one last fix’.
Additionally – while you or others may know that his younger brother was in agreement with the elder…on what needed to happen – I have not seen one corroboration or confirmation that the younger brother was, indeed, flying to L.A. that day.
In the interview, Jonathan Hastings said that – after he arrived in L.A. and saw Michael, he realized that Michael was not going to go “willingly”…and he “started to make arrangements with our brother” to fly out and possibly help Jonathan ‘force Mike’ into checking himself into a hospital or rehab center.
At no point have I seen Jeff (the younger brother) confirm that he had a flight booked for L.A. – No-one (that I have seen) has confirmed if he actually flew to L.A. – and, while Jonathan stated in the interview that the entire family was in-synch with his views on everything-related (to include the LAPD’s investigation) – someone (whose choice of language strongly resembles Jeff’s) does not appear to be such a happy camper, according to WhoWhatWhy.com…
Not once have I seen the younger brother come out and say – “Yeah – I agree with Jonathan. Michael had a manic drug-inspired episode, and slipped into the deep end before we could help.”
But, even then…none of this accounts for Detective White saying that he was actually going ‘somewhere’, that morning – being, Las Vegas.
Maybe you are comfortable with going through the various checks and potential checks at major airports with a fresh bag/(or whatever kind of container) of meth or crack (etc) on your person or in your bags - - - but - - - I would not be brave enough to take such a risk… And – ESPECIALLY – if I was already (as is one of the more widely accepted facts) paranoid out of my gourd that the Feds/NSA/FBI or whomever, was watching my every step/move.
I, likewise, think that – if he was indeed concerned (which – multiple witnesses seem to affirm) that someone had, or might have tampered with his car – unless he’d given in to the probability of ‘going to prison’ – I don’t see him using that same car (that was no doubt, being tracked…AT LEAST) to make a score.
And – more than almost any of that… The street-corner drug buy…does not seem to fit his station.
…
… … …
…
… … …Anyway… … … You shouldn’t have got me started again.
Have to break away for a bit, as I think I’m just rambling, right now.
I wanted to address more of what you brought up in this post and the last…but, need to get something to eat.
WanDash
reply to post by NickDC202
What I like about your scenario is – it’s a legitimate stab. It handles most of the angles related to the story.
If we were to take it, and try to work with it…though – – – unless he was just going for a “one-shot fix”, I don’t see him trying to sneak a significant “buy” into a detox/rehab facility. I don’t see him even acquiescing to his brother/s…and going to rehab/detox – much less, trying to get ‘one last fix’.
Additionally – while you or others may know that his younger brother was in agreement with the elder…on what needed to happen – I have not seen one corroboration or confirmation that the younger brother was, indeed, flying to L.A. that day.
In the interview, Jonathan Hastings said that – after he arrived in L.A. and saw Michael, he realized that Michael was not going to go “willingly”…and he “started to make arrangements with our brother” to fly out and possibly help Jonathan ‘force Mike’ into checking himself into a hospital or rehab center.
At no point have I seen Jeff (the younger brother) confirm that he had a flight booked for L.A. – No-one (that I have seen) has confirmed if he actually flew to L.A. – and, while Jonathan stated in the interview that the entire family was in-synch with his views on everything-related (to include the LAPD’s investigation) – someone (whose choice of language strongly resembles Jeff’s) does not appear to be such a happy camper, according to WhoWhatWhy.com…
Not once have I seen the younger brother come out and say – “Yeah – I agree with Jonathan. Michael had a manic drug-inspired episode, and slipped into the deep end before we could help.”
But, even then…none of this accounts for Detective White saying that he was actually going ‘somewhere’, that morning – being, Las Vegas.
Maybe you are comfortable with going through the various checks and potential checks at major airports with a fresh bag/(or whatever kind of container) of meth or crack (etc) on your person or in your bags - - - but - - - I would not be brave enough to take such a risk… And – ESPECIALLY – if I was already (as is one of the more widely accepted facts) paranoid out of my gourd that the Feds/NSA/FBI or whomever, was watching my every step/move.
I, likewise, think that – if he was indeed concerned (which – multiple witnesses seem to affirm) that someone had, or might have tampered with his car – unless he’d given in to the probability of ‘going to prison’ – I don’t see him using that same car (that was no doubt, being tracked…AT LEAST) to make a score.
And – more than almost any of that… The street-corner drug buy…does not seem to fit his station.
Respectfully snipped by me...
Thanks for your thoughtful, thorough and insightful reply.
I'll get the quick points out of the way first:
1. Each time I've gone from LA to Vegas with friends in LA we, like most Californians, don't fly but drive there-- it's a fun trip. Sure I know folks who prefer to fly but consider that the drive is just 3 hours and you'd waste that much time getting to an airport, doing the security thing and still being early enough to check-in.
2. In lieu of tarnishing the memory of the deceased most families would prefer to keep the deeply personal, negative aspects of the dead's life; their loved one's demons out of the public spotlight in order to prevent MH being remembered as a junkie and not a skilled and accomplished journalist.
3. As far as his car paranoia (asking to borrow the neighbor lady's car) I wonder if MH may not have wanted to move/use his car in case his brother woke up, saw he was not there and, upon return, MH could just say he went for a walk to clear his head and if the brother checked MH's car it would not be warm and there would be no signs of it just being used. (Also if he wasn't going to go along with the rehab program and denying he had a problem then was "caught" sneaking out in the middle of the night his ability to deny a problem would diminish).
4. Wasn't suggesting a street dealer for MH. Rather, I was suggesting that the dealer could have been waiting up for MH who couldn't leave until his brother was in dreamland and may have gotten pissed and said 'If you're not here in 5 minutes then don't come." There are countless scenarios that the dealer may have been on a strict time schedule and it could have been for because of several other reasons.
As far as one last fix, I once drew the short straw and was assigned to be the guy responsible for dealing with a close friend who had agreed to go into detox/rehab. it was a nightmare to deal with to say the least. What I learned is that people who realize that something that gets them through the day is not going to be available for at least a month, they will do whatever it takes to get their fix and drink or drug up until the moment that they arrive at the intake center. After dealing with getting him to rehab, I did some research and discovered that my friend's behavior was the norm and not the anomaly. Therefore if MH knew his lost weekend was coming to an end then he would probably do whatever it took to get his fix.
Sorry for sending you down this rabbit hole.... I do look forward to your thoughts.
reply to post by NickDC202
My antennae always perk up when I see you commenting anywhere…as I know to expect to read something…uhhhh…sane!
I don’t doubt that all of what you’ve stated is true.
We’re dealing in/with some vagaries, here, though…being:
• Was the Las Vegas trip planned in advance (before he knew Jonathan was flying in to save the day)?
• Was the Las Vegas trip an attempt to get away from his brother’s insistence?
• Was the Las Vegas trip more “last minute”…and related to the “big story” – to meet with a source (bogus or otherwise)?
I’m sure there are other possibilities I’m not considering… But …trying to keep the context within reach, we still must at least bring into the equation that – the amount of “amphetamine” found in his system was more in line with someone that had taken “one to a few” doses of Adderall “within the previous week”, rather than someone who was hooked.
In my current way of seeing things, I don’t think he felt he had to run away from his brother – to escape rehab/detox. I believe he was convinced that his suspicions (or – as we like to call it – paranoia) were justified…and that his brother was overreacting. I do think he feigned passing-out to give himself room to breathe and think…and act, if he so decided.
But – past all that – one of my first thoughts concerning ‘going to Las Vegas’…at such an hour, included the ‘fun trip’ you described.
A side note – we (I) still don’t know if he had any luggage or a change of clothes in the car. If he was going to Las Vegas – that information (what was in the car) could give greater context for considering these possibilities. Just like – if he had a 100 or 200 dollar bill in his pocket…
I have no problem with this statement…except…it seems that is almost the only thing Jonathan has done… IMO – everything Jonathan Hastings said in the interview tended toward tarnish, rather than varnish.
At that time, Jonathan KNEW that Michael was not accepting the rehab/detox recommendation. So – Michael wasn’t needing to avert suspicion. He smoked the weed right in front of his brother. So – the only thing remaining would be IF (as is the premise for your theory) he was actually hooked-on/doing meth…and wanted to hide it from his brother (because then, his brother might amp-up the pressure).
So – while I may not be with you on the premise – I can see how this would be a rational and workable answer…under that premise.
You are correct that there are numerous scenarios this could play out under.
And – while I don’t see evidence that leads me to think the “under cover addiction” is likely – IF IT WERE – I have seen the same as you stated in your last paragraph…
… Sorry for sending you down this rabbit hole.... I do look forward to your thoughts.
My antennae always perk up when I see you commenting anywhere…as I know to expect to read something…uhhhh…sane!
…1. Each time I've gone from LA to Vegas with friends in LA we, like most Californians, don't fly but drive there-- it's a fun trip. Sure I know folks who prefer to fly but consider that the drive is just 3 hours and you'd waste that much time getting to an airport, doing the security thing and still being early enough to check-in. …
I don’t doubt that all of what you’ve stated is true.
We’re dealing in/with some vagaries, here, though…being:
• Was the Las Vegas trip planned in advance (before he knew Jonathan was flying in to save the day)?
• Was the Las Vegas trip an attempt to get away from his brother’s insistence?
• Was the Las Vegas trip more “last minute”…and related to the “big story” – to meet with a source (bogus or otherwise)?
I’m sure there are other possibilities I’m not considering… But …trying to keep the context within reach, we still must at least bring into the equation that – the amount of “amphetamine” found in his system was more in line with someone that had taken “one to a few” doses of Adderall “within the previous week”, rather than someone who was hooked.
In my current way of seeing things, I don’t think he felt he had to run away from his brother – to escape rehab/detox. I believe he was convinced that his suspicions (or – as we like to call it – paranoia) were justified…and that his brother was overreacting. I do think he feigned passing-out to give himself room to breathe and think…and act, if he so decided.
But – past all that – one of my first thoughts concerning ‘going to Las Vegas’…at such an hour, included the ‘fun trip’ you described.
A side note – we (I) still don’t know if he had any luggage or a change of clothes in the car. If he was going to Las Vegas – that information (what was in the car) could give greater context for considering these possibilities. Just like – if he had a 100 or 200 dollar bill in his pocket…
…2. In lieu of tarnishing the memory of the deceased most families would prefer to keep the deeply personal, negative aspects of the dead's life; their loved one's demons out of the public spotlight in order to prevent MH being remembered as a junkie and not a skilled and accomplished journalist.
I have no problem with this statement…except…it seems that is almost the only thing Jonathan has done… IMO – everything Jonathan Hastings said in the interview tended toward tarnish, rather than varnish.
…3. As far as his car paranoia (asking to borrow the neighbor lady's car) I wonder if MH may not have wanted to move/use his car in case his brother woke up, saw he was not there and, upon return, MH could just say he went for a walk to clear his head and if the brother checked MH's car it would not be warm and there would be no signs of it just being used. (Also if he wasn't going to go along with the rehab program and denying he had a problem then was "caught" sneaking out in the middle of the night his ability to deny a problem would diminish).
At that time, Jonathan KNEW that Michael was not accepting the rehab/detox recommendation. So – Michael wasn’t needing to avert suspicion. He smoked the weed right in front of his brother. So – the only thing remaining would be IF (as is the premise for your theory) he was actually hooked-on/doing meth…and wanted to hide it from his brother (because then, his brother might amp-up the pressure).
So – while I may not be with you on the premise – I can see how this would be a rational and workable answer…under that premise.
… 4. Wasn't suggesting a street dealer for MH. Rather, I was suggesting that the dealer could have been waiting up for MH who couldn't leave until his brother was in dreamland and may have gotten pissed and said 'If you're not here in 5 minutes then don't come." There are countless scenarios that the dealer may have been on a strict time schedule and it could have been for because of several other reasons.
You are correct that there are numerous scenarios this could play out under.
And – while I don’t see evidence that leads me to think the “under cover addiction” is likely – IF IT WERE – I have seen the same as you stated in your last paragraph…
reply to post by NickDC202
NickDC202 - I hope it doesn't feel like I'm trying to shoot you down...anymore than I've tried to shoot down any and every theory posed...
In all honesty - your theory (scenario) is more plausible than any I've seen or considered (including my own).
Again - though - I'm just admitting that I know...I have a 'tilt'.
We all do...but, my tilt is from experience that correlates (as does yours and others') from another side of the equation.
Revealing personal experience/s on a public forum can have all kinds of ramifications - so - as a rule, the whole "anonymity principle" makes conversation easier.
I could try to sound and seem like a saintly Pope with a shiny halo - and...might even carry it off.
But - truth of the matter is - I'm maybe more human (fallible & frail) than everyone-else...
I have been on the side of the equation where "family" attempted an intervention.
They believed/suspected that "drug use" (and even hard drug use) was the cause of my behavioral changes (not to mention that I'd lost 60 pounds in three and a half months).
No drugs.
I, simply (or, not so simply - whichever the case may actually be) entered-in and succumbed to a mental/psychological crisis.
Won't go into much detail - but will say that it took a good three months to get to the point where 'family' attempted an intervention.
I was a professional ( ) when it began...
The ability to perform my work, however, began to deteriorate at an accelerated pace, once it began -- and it still took 3 months before I resigned.
After I resigned...I walked around the city like a robot/zombie for almost a month...
Smoked cigarette stubs from public ashtrays for almost a month...
Picked up trash from the sidewalks and public areas...for almost a month...
... ... ...and so much more... ... ...
The night I was "escorted" (with hands cuffed behind my back in the back-seat of a police cruiser) to the hospital for evaluation... after being released ...I walked in the sleeting cold 4 miles, until I found some tall cattails...and lay beneath them for a while, before finding a stairwell that would shelter me from some of the wind and precipitation for a couple of hours...until a clanging flagpole drew me up to walking again... I walked another eight or nine miles before returning home...well after daybreak.
At No Point !-!-! was I unaware-of or oblivious-to the fact that 'what I was doing and thinking and believing' was at odds with normalcy.
I knew what normal thought.
...knew what normal was...
I could hold the two (or more) interpretations of reality side by side, with objectivity...and still accept/believe that the "delusional" perspective was "real".
Yet - - - - - my IQ is considered very high.
(those with higher IQs, I'm sure, will disagree!!! ).
My profession is "legal", and, for the last 5-or-so years, I've been consistently esteemed "the best" (or - one of the best) by most everyone...
All of that --- ALL OF IT ...was offered to bolster one point...
Michael Hastings' demeanor and professional performance & conduct - IMO - were not indicative of someone sinking into the abyss.
Unless he was SOOOOOO much smarter and more capable than me... It would have been (again IMO) impossible to keep his public persona intact until just a few days before his brother's verdict.
I had a friend, years ago - BRILLIANT - CHARISMATIC - - - possessed all the social qualities & skills I lack...
He had been in the CIA. He...loved...crystal meth...
...
If Michael's skill and psychological/mental fortitude/aptitude was 'on par' with his...then...I would have to give your proposition a lot more heed/consideration.
And Thus - as you say - if Michael Hastings had a deeper problem with 'meth' than the physical evidence (as well as those close to him) suggests - the scenario/theory you posited, might be the best I've seen.
SO - THANKS for the titillation. Maybe Time will give us some more information & answers...and we'll be able to see if your inclinations were on target.
NickDC202 - I hope it doesn't feel like I'm trying to shoot you down...anymore than I've tried to shoot down any and every theory posed...
In all honesty - your theory (scenario) is more plausible than any I've seen or considered (including my own).
Again - though - I'm just admitting that I know...I have a 'tilt'.
We all do...but, my tilt is from experience that correlates (as does yours and others') from another side of the equation.
Revealing personal experience/s on a public forum can have all kinds of ramifications - so - as a rule, the whole "anonymity principle" makes conversation easier.
I could try to sound and seem like a saintly Pope with a shiny halo - and...might even carry it off.
But - truth of the matter is - I'm maybe more human (fallible & frail) than everyone-else...
I have been on the side of the equation where "family" attempted an intervention.
They believed/suspected that "drug use" (and even hard drug use) was the cause of my behavioral changes (not to mention that I'd lost 60 pounds in three and a half months).
No drugs.
I, simply (or, not so simply - whichever the case may actually be) entered-in and succumbed to a mental/psychological crisis.
Won't go into much detail - but will say that it took a good three months to get to the point where 'family' attempted an intervention.
I was a professional ( ) when it began...
The ability to perform my work, however, began to deteriorate at an accelerated pace, once it began -- and it still took 3 months before I resigned.
After I resigned...I walked around the city like a robot/zombie for almost a month...
Smoked cigarette stubs from public ashtrays for almost a month...
Picked up trash from the sidewalks and public areas...for almost a month...
... ... ...and so much more... ... ...
The night I was "escorted" (with hands cuffed behind my back in the back-seat of a police cruiser) to the hospital for evaluation... after being released ...I walked in the sleeting cold 4 miles, until I found some tall cattails...and lay beneath them for a while, before finding a stairwell that would shelter me from some of the wind and precipitation for a couple of hours...until a clanging flagpole drew me up to walking again... I walked another eight or nine miles before returning home...well after daybreak.
At No Point !-!-! was I unaware-of or oblivious-to the fact that 'what I was doing and thinking and believing' was at odds with normalcy.
I knew what normal thought.
...knew what normal was...
I could hold the two (or more) interpretations of reality side by side, with objectivity...and still accept/believe that the "delusional" perspective was "real".
Yet - - - - - my IQ is considered very high.
(those with higher IQs, I'm sure, will disagree!!! ).
My profession is "legal", and, for the last 5-or-so years, I've been consistently esteemed "the best" (or - one of the best) by most everyone...
All of that --- ALL OF IT ...was offered to bolster one point...
Michael Hastings' demeanor and professional performance & conduct - IMO - were not indicative of someone sinking into the abyss.
Unless he was SOOOOOO much smarter and more capable than me... It would have been (again IMO) impossible to keep his public persona intact until just a few days before his brother's verdict.
I had a friend, years ago - BRILLIANT - CHARISMATIC - - - possessed all the social qualities & skills I lack...
He had been in the CIA. He...loved...crystal meth...
...
If Michael's skill and psychological/mental fortitude/aptitude was 'on par' with his...then...I would have to give your proposition a lot more heed/consideration.
And Thus - as you say - if Michael Hastings had a deeper problem with 'meth' than the physical evidence (as well as those close to him) suggests - the scenario/theory you posited, might be the best I've seen.
SO - THANKS for the titillation. Maybe Time will give us some more information & answers...and we'll be able to see if your inclinations were on target.
edit on 11/21/2013 by WanDash because: said too much
reply to post by barabajagal
I am continually frustrated at the notion that there is some "obvious" explanation OUT THERE for this event... So...
Conspiracy Theories / Foul Play Scenarios
There are very few (if they even amount to ‘more than a couple’) that stand up to minimal scrutiny.
First – those I count LEAST likely…
1. Drone Missile Strike
There may be a slim chance (one of the slimmest in history) that the explosion evidenced on the security camera video was the result of a drone missile…but IF one has not examined said security camera footage to at least the extent I have…they should not try this argument.
The Mercedes had come to a complete halt in forward motion, with the rear wheels settled just past the median-curb on the street – the engine was long (*) gone – and there was no electrical system connectivity…by the time the first “flash of explosion” came to light…
So – what a waste of a missile!!!
(And – that would lead to the question – HOW WOULD HE HAVE KNOWN that a missile, launched from a drone, was pursuing him…at 4:20 a.m.? - - Else - - why the speed?)
2. Onboard Explosives
Again, there are some slim chances that this could have taken place…but…AGAIN…they are very slim – as – they would have to have been placed in/on the vehicle to precisely avoid casting (pushing/forcing) evidence of their presence downward…
And - - - AGAIN - - - considering the video evidence - - - they would only have come into play (exploded) after the car’s occupant had been dealt the death blow – thus - - - except for the possibility that the intent of onboard explosives was to get rid of other evidence/s - - - what a waste…!!!???
3. He Was Being Chased/Pursued
For this explanation to even sneak the tip of its nose into the list of possibilities would require that a significant conspiracy was, in fact, in place – to include…the eye witness waiting at the red light at Santa Monica’; the LoudLabs video of the Mercedes speeding through said light (the stories would need to have harmonized) and a few seconds after the Mercedes sped past the LoudLabs camera; the eye witness near the intersection of North Highland Ave and Melrose’; AND …whomever would have been in pursuit would need to have known/realized, in time, that they should abort the pursuit before crossing Melrose’… (because no vehicle was in pursuit in the security camera footage)
These three “theories” or “propositions” are effectively shot down (note that I did not say absolutely) by the evidence examined in this thread.
But --- What about the --- Non-Conspiracy Theories / No Foul Play Scenarios?
Should we demand the same standard of proof (harmony) from them, as is demanded of Conspiracy Theories?
Absolutely! Neither kind of theory should get a pass on standard of proof.
… SO …
… … …for anyone still listening… … …
… … … …do you know what… … … …the OFFICIAL…explanation is… …for what… …happened?
Well – the OFFICIAL explanation…was pretty slim – being –
“UHHHHHHH – the man was driving very fast – had evidence of marijuana and amphetamine in his blood – and - - - UHHHHH – died – when he lost control of his car, and smashed into a tree. UHHHH – his car caught fire at about the same time he hit the tree, and – UHHHHH – the engine flew another 150+ feet past the tree, and – UHHHH… … …”
…not much more.
So – if we want to go past that – every explanation for How & Why is no more or less a theoretical conjecture, than EVERY conspiracy theory.
AND – EVERY such conjecture I have seen offered is tilted by some perspectual predisposition of the Conjecturor ! ! !
Mechanical Failure
Driver Error
• (to include – being a stupid idiot that didn’t care what harm said stupidity might inflict upon the lives of others that might cross his path)
• Excessively lost in thought – and…didn’t notice/realize he was speeding and accelerating through red lights, past traffic and pedestrians…until he’d achieved maximum (or, virtually maximum) speed…and…lost control…and…never touched the brakes – until he hit the tree…
• Late – So Late – For a Very Important Date – with his Drug Dealer - - - SO MUCH SO - - - that HE DID NOT CARE IF HE DIED (&/or killed others) TRYING…TO GET THAT…ONE…LAST…FIX…(before rehab/detox)
• MANIC (and apparently, DELUSIONALLY PARANOID) EPISODE – that manifested within three days… (I will offer support for this caveat, if you have not seen the same in my most recent posts in this thread)…to the tune of a toilet bowl flush…
Honestly – I don’t see one of the “No Foul Play” arguments – yet – that harmonizes with the facts and storyline any better than the “Foul Play” arguments.
So --- What? Are we to simply throw our hands up/down in surrender…and say – “it’s unfigurable”?
Who knows…?
May-Be
I am continually frustrated at the notion that there is some "obvious" explanation OUT THERE for this event... So...
Conspiracy Theories / Foul Play Scenarios
There are very few (if they even amount to ‘more than a couple’) that stand up to minimal scrutiny.
First – those I count LEAST likely…
1. Drone Missile Strike
There may be a slim chance (one of the slimmest in history) that the explosion evidenced on the security camera video was the result of a drone missile…but IF one has not examined said security camera footage to at least the extent I have…they should not try this argument.
The Mercedes had come to a complete halt in forward motion, with the rear wheels settled just past the median-curb on the street – the engine was long (*) gone – and there was no electrical system connectivity…by the time the first “flash of explosion” came to light…
So – what a waste of a missile!!!
(And – that would lead to the question – HOW WOULD HE HAVE KNOWN that a missile, launched from a drone, was pursuing him…at 4:20 a.m.? - - Else - - why the speed?)
2. Onboard Explosives
Again, there are some slim chances that this could have taken place…but…AGAIN…they are very slim – as – they would have to have been placed in/on the vehicle to precisely avoid casting (pushing/forcing) evidence of their presence downward…
And - - - AGAIN - - - considering the video evidence - - - they would only have come into play (exploded) after the car’s occupant had been dealt the death blow – thus - - - except for the possibility that the intent of onboard explosives was to get rid of other evidence/s - - - what a waste…!!!???
3. He Was Being Chased/Pursued
For this explanation to even sneak the tip of its nose into the list of possibilities would require that a significant conspiracy was, in fact, in place – to include…the eye witness waiting at the red light at Santa Monica’; the LoudLabs video of the Mercedes speeding through said light (the stories would need to have harmonized) and a few seconds after the Mercedes sped past the LoudLabs camera; the eye witness near the intersection of North Highland Ave and Melrose’; AND …whomever would have been in pursuit would need to have known/realized, in time, that they should abort the pursuit before crossing Melrose’… (because no vehicle was in pursuit in the security camera footage)
These three “theories” or “propositions” are effectively shot down (note that I did not say absolutely) by the evidence examined in this thread.
But --- What about the --- Non-Conspiracy Theories / No Foul Play Scenarios?
Should we demand the same standard of proof (harmony) from them, as is demanded of Conspiracy Theories?
Absolutely! Neither kind of theory should get a pass on standard of proof.
… SO …
… … …for anyone still listening… … …
… … … …do you know what… … … …the OFFICIAL…explanation is… …for what… …happened?
Well – the OFFICIAL explanation…was pretty slim – being –
“UHHHHHHH – the man was driving very fast – had evidence of marijuana and amphetamine in his blood – and - - - UHHHHH – died – when he lost control of his car, and smashed into a tree. UHHHH – his car caught fire at about the same time he hit the tree, and – UHHHHH – the engine flew another 150+ feet past the tree, and – UHHHH… … …”
…not much more.
So – if we want to go past that – every explanation for How & Why is no more or less a theoretical conjecture, than EVERY conspiracy theory.
AND – EVERY such conjecture I have seen offered is tilted by some perspectual predisposition of the Conjecturor ! ! !
Mechanical Failure
Driver Error
• (to include – being a stupid idiot that didn’t care what harm said stupidity might inflict upon the lives of others that might cross his path)
• Excessively lost in thought – and…didn’t notice/realize he was speeding and accelerating through red lights, past traffic and pedestrians…until he’d achieved maximum (or, virtually maximum) speed…and…lost control…and…never touched the brakes – until he hit the tree…
• Late – So Late – For a Very Important Date – with his Drug Dealer - - - SO MUCH SO - - - that HE DID NOT CARE IF HE DIED (&/or killed others) TRYING…TO GET THAT…ONE…LAST…FIX…(before rehab/detox)
• MANIC (and apparently, DELUSIONALLY PARANOID) EPISODE – that manifested within three days… (I will offer support for this caveat, if you have not seen the same in my most recent posts in this thread)…to the tune of a toilet bowl flush…
Honestly – I don’t see one of the “No Foul Play” arguments – yet – that harmonizes with the facts and storyline any better than the “Foul Play” arguments.
So --- What? Are we to simply throw our hands up/down in surrender…and say – “it’s unfigurable”?
Who knows…?
May-Be
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