The "Beyond God" questions

Originally posted by ExjKae

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by 1Learner
If it turns out that the aforementioned "distinction" is that which is inconceivable, then the unknown "point" which separates Creator from Creation is the real Creator, for this Point is the source of the two. It should not even be called "Point" but rather Creator.

This moment is appearing to happen - it seems like it has been created but what is seeing the scene?
Can what is seeing this scene be separate from this seen image?

Is there a line or distinction between the seer and the seen or is the Father and son one?

If there was nothing to be seen, the seer would not see it. At the same time if the seer did not see it, nothing would have been seen.

How can the seer and seen be separate then? Surely this moment of presence, where the seeing happens, is one 'thing'

This tells us that there are 3 aspects to reality. The observer, observed and reality in which the 2 can interact. So we have the creator, created and then what? What is the 3rd piece if, by the OP's argument, should not be conceivable to us? God (the creator) may not be bound by the laws of his creation, but he is however, bound by that missing 3rd piece. The canvas which makes reality a reality regardless of what is created and who it is created by.

What would you call it?

Presence. Presence is all there is. There is the seen presence and the unseen presence (which is seeing).

Can the seer be seen?

Originally posted by ExjKae
There is a distinction between the seer and what is seen, however the situation itself allows for that to be a reality in the first place.

There is no line that separates you seeing and what is seen. The only line is drawn by the mind. It is an imaginary line that is not there.

You 'think' you are separate from all things - you think you are a thing among other things but really there is just this moment of presence.

This presence is God - there is nothing separate ever - all is arising in presence. All seeing and knowing happens presently - what is seeing and knowing this presence?
The presence is only ever knowing itself - but there is an idea that there is more (all concepts arise and subside in presence).

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

How can the seer and seen be separate then? Surely this moment of presence, where the seeing happens, is one 'thing'

That's like asking how 2 aspects of a panting are different. Sure they are a part of the big picture, or "one thing", but they are to be respected individually.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Presence. Presence is all there is. There is the seen presence and the unseen presence (which is seeing).

Can the seer be seen?

Yes, because there is effectively no limit to the amount of observers, which in turn means there is no limit to what can be observed. For example the painting I mentioned of the 2 individuals, they are a part of the big picture, but the picture itself is still being observed and so on.

This all leads to infinite regression.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by ExjKae
There is a distinction between the seer and what is seen, however the situation itself allows for that to be a reality in the first place.

There is no line that separates you seeing and what is seen. The only line is drawn by the mind. It is an imaginary line that is not there.

You 'think' you are separate from all things - you think you are a thing among other things but really there is just this moment of presence.

This presence is God - there is nothing separate ever - all is arising in presence. All seeing and knowing happens presently - what is seeing and knowing this presence?
The presence is only ever knowing itself - but there is an idea that there is more (all concepts arise and subside in presence).

I can agree that the idea of being separate from all things is an illusion, but that doesn't change the fact that there is an infinite amount of "moments of presence" to be observed separately from presence as a whole.

Originally posted by ExjKae

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

How can the seer and seen be separate then? Surely this moment of presence, where the seeing happens, is one 'thing'

That's like asking how 2 aspects of a panting are different. Sure they are a part of the big picture, or "one thing", but they are to be respected individually.

The picture is what is being seen - the whole image is appearing now - the image is made of light. The seer of the image does not appear - it is the unseen seer. Can you see what is seeing?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Presence. Presence is all there is. There is the seen presence and the unseen presence (which is seeing).

Can the seer be seen?

Yes, because there is effectively no limit to the amount of observers, which in turn means there is no limit to what can be observed. For example the painting I mentioned of the 2 individuals, they are a part of the big picture, but the picture itself is still being observed and so on.

This all leads to infinite regression.

You are the seer - but because you believe in more than one you assume there is other seers (you believe in individuals because you believe you are divided - but nothing is). Right now - look to see if you can see what is seeing?

St. Francis of Assisi said "What we are looking for is what is looking."

Originally posted by ExjKae

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by ExjKae
There is a distinction between the seer and what is seen, however the situation itself allows for that to be a reality in the first place.

There is no line that separates you seeing and what is seen. The only line is drawn by the mind. It is an imaginary line that is not there.

You 'think' you are separate from all things - you think you are a thing among other things but really there is just this moment of presence.

This presence is God - there is nothing separate ever - all is arising in presence. All seeing and knowing happens presently - what is seeing and knowing this presence?
The presence is only ever knowing itself - but there is an idea that there is more (all concepts arise and subside in presence).

I can agree that the idea of being separate from all things is an illusion, but that doesn't change the fact that there is an infinite amount of "moments of presence" to be observed separately from presence as a whole.

How long is now? The belief in time is so strong because mind is time. The mind though produces thoughts and thought can only be heard or experienced now. Have you ever experienced anything but now? You are now and you are knowing now - always. Now appears as light that is constantly changing.

Observing happens always presently.
All seeing, all knowing and ever present.

God is this - this always appears different but it is always this.

Originally posted by ExjKae
I can agree that the idea of being separate from all things is an illusion, but that doesn't change the fact that there is an infinite amount of "moments of presence" to be observed separately from presence as a whole.

In reality there are no things. There is presence and all concepts (things) arise and subside in presence.

Originally posted by ExjKae


Can the seer be seen?

Yes, because there is effectively no limit to the amount of observers, which in turn means there is no limit to what can be observed. For example the painting I mentioned of the 2 individuals, they are a part of the big picture, but the picture itself is still being observed and so on.

Forget everyone else and every thing else and look right now at what is going on right now.
There is seeing - seeing of the monitor before you - the scene that is appearing now is being seen by what?
Don't go to the mind and seek other than what is - look directly to see if you can find the seer. What is being seen is not seeing as it is scenery. Thoughts arising are seen, sensation in body is seen, colours are seen, sounds are seen (when I say seen I mean known to be happening). What is knowing this to be happening? Look now to see if there is any thing there.

This is terrifying for the mind because the mind believes in things and doing what I am suggesting will lead to nothing. That nothingness is all you have ever wanted but the mind deceives you into wanting and believing in something.
Nothingness is the peace you long for.

Remember the truth is hidden in plain sight - it is hidden in the plain act of seeing.

The realization of presence (God) is the destruction of all things.
God is the space (nothingness) in which all arises and subsides. The all is just light moving across Gods face.

God is like the screen on the tv. No picture can appear without the screen being present. The image and the screen are one.


If this is not realized then one will feel separate and live as though one is a thing among other things. One will feel that one can cease to be, one will feel fearful, lost and scared. One will have to try to survive and one will fear one can do it wrong. This is a hellish condition.
Only the truth shall set you free.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

The picture is what is being seen - the whole image is appearing now - the image is made of light. The seer of the image does not appear - it is the unseen seer. Can you see what is seeing?

I see the picture, the now and the light because I am the seer. Beyond that is my mind, my consciousness, my spirit and my soul which all utilize my physical body (eyes) to see the physical world. You ask if I can see what is seeing, basically if I can see my soul or beyond...then the answer is always no because perceiving that which does not exist in the physical realm is impossible.

We can imagine all we want as to what or who this "unseen seer" is, but in the end all we would be doing is creating something or someone (God) to fill that void in our minds. It's something that mankind has tried to understand for ages and many have yet to learn that we don't need to understand at all to begin with.

Our existence now is all that truly matters...but just in case you want something more to go on. Instead of asking me if I can see what is seeing, why not ask yourself if you can see what's seeing that which is seeing you see?

You < "unseen seer" < unseen seer of seer < unseen seer of seer of seer < etc etc.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

You are the seer - but because you believe in more than one you assume there is other seers (you believe in individuals because you believe you are divided - but nothing is). Right now - look to see if you can see what is seeing?

St. Francis of Assisi said "What we are looking for is what is looking."

I'm not claiming that everything is divided and nothing is connected. I am simply saying it is both at the exact same time. A whole is the sum of its parts, without the parts there would be no whole. So while all of the parts are separate, they are also the whole itself simultaneously.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

How long is now? The belief in time is so strong because mind is time. The mind though produces thoughts and thought can only be heard or experienced now. Have you ever experienced anything but now? You are now and you are knowing now - always. Now appears as light that is constantly changing.

Observing happens always presently.
All seeing, all knowing and ever present.

God is this - this always appears different but it is always this.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

If this is not realized then one will feel separate and live as though one is a thing among other things. One will feel that one can cease to be, one will feel fearful, lost and scared. One will have to try to survive and one will fear one can do it wrong. This is a hellish condition.
Only the truth shall set you free.

Lol the "truth"? What truth? This entire time I have agreed that all is one and one is all. I simply don't personify it as "God" the way you do. Now I realize that all you have been doing is forcing reasons to say those last words, the notorious "truth shall sell you free" line.

All I have to say to you in response is that, what you perceive as truth is not what others need to feel free. You cannot tell someone that they will feel fearful, lost and scared if they do not believe what you believe. That in and of itself, is you creating a "hellish condition" for your fellow man. By holding others to your standard, you use fear as a tool to force people into seeing what you believe to be "truth".

If anyone is scared, it's you for believing that without God you will die alone. In reality, you are never alone because your family and friends will always be in your heart. I can die in the middle of a desert right now and not be afraid or alone because of my loved ones. If God won't comfort me for not having total faith in my heart, then so be it, I have plenty others to comfort me.

Originally posted by ExjKae

Lol the "truth"? What truth? This entire time I have agreed that all is one and one is all. I simply don't personify it as "God" the way you do. Now I realize that all you have been doing is forcing reasons to say those last words, the notorious "truth shall sell you free" line.

All I have to say to you in response is that, what you perceive as truth is not what others need to feel free. You cannot tell someone that they will feel fearful, lost and scared if they do not believe what you believe. That in and of itself, is you creating a "hellish condition" for your fellow man. By holding others to your standard, you use fear as a tool to force people into seeing what you believe to be "truth".

It is not a threat of fear - the human condition is seeking happiness. The fear is already there and that is why comfort is sought (happiness or lack of suffering). The bible is showing how to be free from the suffering that humans have to tolerate.

If anyone is scared, it's you for believing that without God you will die alone. In reality, you are never alone because your family and friends will always be in your heart. I can die in the middle of a desert right now and not be afraid or alone because of my loved ones. If God won't comfort me for not having total faith in my heart, then so be it, I have plenty others to comfort me.

I am not scared because I know the truth of existence.
There is only God.
God does not have to be believed in - God is all there is.

Originally posted by ExjKae
If anyone is scared, it's you for believing that without God you will die alone.

Fear happens when one goes out of presence and lives in the imagination of time. Lost in thought and lost in time is the human condition of suffering.
I know when I am. And I know that nothing can appear outside presence.

reply to post by 1Learner

You're quite right to put your finger on the boldest, most controversial portion of the O.P..
What I'm doing is working by analogy.

Thelogians have long recognised that if God is not oart of the three-dimensional structure of space, or rather the four-dimensional structure, he can't be understood as being "beyond" the world in terms of those physical dimensions.
There must be a sense in which God is "beyond" the world, but that "beyond" is not a spatial one.
They can't imagine such a non-spatial relationship, their minds cannot grasp how it would work, but they have an intellectual understanding that this must be the case.

What I'm doing is extending that idea by analogy.
Just as the way in which God is "beyond" the world is understood not to bemeasurable in miles or light-years, the suggestion is that the Creation relationship is NOT an "effect" in the way we would understand the term.
Of course the difference is unimaginable, we could not grasp how it might work, and the idea sounds paradoxical.
Yet I'm not sure that "God has brought the world into existence in a way which is not cause-and-effect" is any worse than "God is beyond the world in a way which does not involve measurable distance".
We can't really imagine either of them.

You also bring up the problem of how we describe God if we recognise that anything we can say about him is not fully valid.
The solution of some, e.g. the so-called "Areopagite", is that we don't try. We just give up trying to say anything about him.
My answer would be that we must make the best use of the language we've got, but use it with caution and reservation.
Therefore anything we can say about God, including the word "God" may be true only in an analogical way, but it's the best we've got.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Fear happens when one goes out of presence and lives in the imagination of time. Lost in thought and lost in time is the human condition of suffering.

That is your perception of human suffering, and in no way does that reflect the standard for all of mankind. You do not speak for anyone but yourself, what you believe is not superior to anyone else and in no way can you ever know what is best for the rest of the world outside of your own home (and even then it is not guaranteed).

Until you understand that you will come off as controlling, manipulative and honestly full of it in a lot of cases. As honorable as your intentions may be, you have to be careful what kind of things you state as fact or you may be psychologically scarring people close to you.

reply to post by ExjKae


In the bible it says that Satan left presence. Only the human mind is capable of leaving presence - it doesn't really though - all thoughts arise in presence.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

I know when I am. And I know that nothing can appear outside presence.

Do you know when you are?

Originally posted by ExjKae


That is your perception of human suffering, and in no way does that reflect the standard for all of mankind. You do not speak for anyone but yourself, what you believe is not superior to anyone else and in no way can you ever know what is best for the rest of the world outside of your own home (and even then it is not guaranteed).

Until you understand that you will come off as controlling, manipulative and honestly full of it in a lot of cases. As honorable as your intentions may be, you have to be careful what kind of things you state as fact or you may be psychologically scarring people close to you.

What have I written that can harm?

The mind does not like what I speak - it is terrifying, I know.
You are nothing perceiving everything,

In this moment perceiving is happening but there is no one behind the curtain.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

There must be a sense in which God is "beyond" the world, but that "beyond" is not a spatial one.

Beyond as in 'prior'. God is prior to the world. God is this moment of presence - prior to any 'idea of time'. Prior to any 'idea of time' there is no time or space - there is just this that is happening now.
The world is a concept, the world is a word that brings many other concepts to mind. The world is no more than an idea.
Is this moment of reality an idea? Or is it real?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

In Creation theory, also, there is no time and space before the world. Just God.
The world has a reality, but one that is both distinct from God and dependent upon God.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

In Creation theory, also, there is no time and space before the world. Just God.
The world has a reality, but one that is both distinct from God and dependent upon God.

Before the world of time and space there was presence.
There still is presence.

Can you actually see or hear 'the world' right now? 'The world' is a word heard or read - a concept arising. No one can ever experience 'the world' - it means different things to different people.

This moment is real and there are many ideas about all sorts of things contained in it.
God is the container and the concepts about all the things including the world are content.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

"In the beginning, God made the heavens and the earth
And the earth was without form and void" Genesis ch1 v1