The "Beyond God" questions

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I am not trying to prove anything.
I am taking as a premise the Biblical presentation of the relation between God and the world, and following through the consequences.
That is my starting point.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I am not trying to prove anything.
I am taking as a premise the Biblical presentation of the relation between God and the world, and following through the consequences.
That is my starting point.

God is real and the world is a concept, an idea that God has.
When God tricks himself with his magic, he then lives in the world he created out of nothing. He will not rest until he remembers there is no real world and that in fact the world is made of nothing..

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Biblically speaking, God is real and the world is real, but dependent upon God.
That is the teaching that God made the world "EX NIHILO"- out of nothing.

The Incarnation ties the relation between them more firmly.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Biblically speaking, God is real and the world is real, but dependent upon God.
That is the teaching that God made the world "EX NIHILO"- out of nothing.

The Incarnation ties the relation between them more firmly.

You may have missed my edit so I will post it here.

When God tricks himself with his magic, he then lives in the world he created out of nothing. He will not rest until he remembers that there is no real world and that in fact the world is made of nothing.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

As presented in the Bible, God communicates with the world, so he is perfectly aware of the relation between himself and the world.

What you say about him is a bare unsupported statement, coming entirely from your own imagination, and therefore it has no value.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by dominicus

 

Fortunately I am not so much trying to understand God, as trying to deal with a misunderstanding which sometimes crops up.

edit on 3-8-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

That's the thing though, how can one deal with a misunderstanding about God, without the actual first hand experience???

It's like blind men arguing about colors, or deaf men arguing about sound..............

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

As presented in the Bible, God communicates with the world, so he is perfectly aware of the relation between himself and the world.

What you say about him is a bare unsupported statement, coming entirely from your own imagination, and therefore it has no value.

Would you mind providing the quote in the bible which actually states that God communicates with the world please? I am not sure I am familiar with it.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

The Bible provides a large number of examples of God communicating
For example "God said to Abraham" in Genesis ch15 v1 and many other places.
As I said, the Bible presents God as one who communicates.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

The Bible provides a large number of examples of God communicating
For example "God said to Abraham" in Genesis ch15 v1 and many other places.
As I said, the Bible presents God as one who communicates.

All that is appearing is an invitation for you to see and hear the Glory of God but he is sought elsewhere and else when. God can only be seen and heard now but the belief in other times and places are distracting.
God is presence and when you see what there is to see and hear what there is to hear you will recognize who you are - what this is. Until then you will live denying, hiding and seeking the only one that truly is.
it is just a game God plays with himself. There is only God but he pretends there is other. He then plays hide and seek.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Bare unsupported statements.
Coming from your own imagination, they have no value.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Bare unsupported statements.
Coming from your own imagination, they have no value.

What is value??
The mind wants value.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

Bare unsupported statements.

What supported statements have you got? And who is it that supports any statement about God?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

I am basing everything I say about God on the Biblical presentation.
That is my support.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Same here.
God is timeless being - presence is always the case.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Dianec
Are we sure "universe" was translated right. In ancient days what was seen is what there was so I always took universe to mean the heavens (as interpreted by ancestors).

The wording in Genesis is that God made "the heavens and the earth".
But the Biblical writers could only write about what they knew about (which is why the Bible does not mention America), and they're not going to discuss a question which has not been raised.
So I'm sure that if they had realised how the universe could be extended beyond "heavens and earth", they would have extended the statement as well.

The statement at the beginning of John's gospel is that everything that was made was made by God through Christ.
So if we limit the scope of what God made to something less than "eveything", I believe we are reducing him

To ask "what" created God is to assume an intelligent being applied thought to a plan. Again - that's egocentric but also quite human to do. There seems to be am intelligent design to the universe but not intelligence as we understand it (but we sure do try with science).

On the question of the "personality" of God, my view is that the Bible presents God as one who communicates.
Part of the content of that communication is that God has a deliberate will.
I would say that having a will and an ability to communicate constitutes at least an analogy to personality.
Or it might be better to say that our human personality is a feeble imitation of his own.

I agree that we cannot understand God.
But if God tries to communicate himself to us, we can at least take that as a guideline to help our understanding.

edit on 3-8-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

As I said about communication though - I hear people say "God spoke to me" or "God told me" but did not hear a voice. To convey the impact of their revelation they state it this way as it its the way we communicate to get a point across. We cannot truly know if God spoke with a verbal voice (from mouth to ear). Even priestsand pastors will substantiate this. I've been told by those who have studied divinity that when one feels close to God they hear Him all the time. Hearing is never verbal but through other means.

One can say everything that exists has a will as that is what allows all that is to sustain itself. From fire to bacteria - if we want to apply our own words to it. I go with what another said in here - you have to experience it (transcendance) as the wisdom behind it is beyond the analytical mind. It must be felt; experienced. If not integrated it may be lost by too much analytical (as in near death literature).

Your asking this great question but asking the wrong audience. I'm sure God would like to answer it instead and perhaps has made it impossible for it to be known by anything less than the ultimate source. It's within us all - that wisdom. It may be that the mind gets in the way and it must be felt.. Big problem in religion IMO is people engage with their minds but not their hearts. Transcendence is not something I've experienced yet but I sure do like to read stories of those have. From ancient accounts to modern day witnesses we know there is no true separateness. That's the wisdom and if everyone got it we would live in peace. God is not separate - rather He is the wisdom that helps us reach our highest potential (the ultimate realization of oneness).

The bible was written from a human perspective and from wisdom given to them by God. God did not zap it down to us. Therefore it has been through the human screen of imperfection (just look at them all the world over - if interpreted the same we wouldn't need but one). Getting outside of the frontal mind and into the inner wisdom that is within the ancient brain that's connected to instinct is helped by building a personal relationship with God. That's the way He communicates.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Disraeli,

You ignored my previous post.

So you base your beliefs on the ancient writings of a group of itinerant and illiterate goat-ropers.

You probably worship a dead human being as god, don't you?

Worshipping a dead human being as god is idolatry, isn't it?

Don't you realize how superstitious and ignorant that is?

You really need to expand your Mind and leave that ignorance and superstition behind you.

The Universality of Divinity is Ineffable, Disraeli, you really do need to realize that.

Open your mind, Disraeli, abandon your ignorance and superstition.

You don't need them. They slow you down.

Realize and Know the Divinity within Yourself.

Know Thyself.

Wake Up.

reply to post by MildBill

Your post was not related to the topic of the thread.
This thread is not about the merits or otherwise of religion as such..
It takes the Biblical doctrine of Creation as an assumed premise, and then considers whether it is legitimate to develop that teaching in a particular way.

The topic of any thread is defined by the OP.
That means I am not obliged to chase after every irrelevant hare that gets started.

reply to post by Dianec

I should point out that this thread is not actually asking the "great question" which you're referring to.
It is not asking "Who made the world?"
Instead, the OP is dealing with the follow-up question favoured by sceptics, that is "Who made God?", and trying to show why it should not be asked.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Dianec

 

I should point out that this thread is not actually asking the "great question" which you're referring to.
It is not asking "Who made the world?"
Instead, the OP is dealing with the follow-up question favoured by sceptics, that is "Who made God?", and trying to show why it should not be asked.

Nothing made God. How can nothing be made?
Out of nothing appears all that is seen and heard and all that is seen and heard dissolves back to nothing.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Related in time

We often speak of God as preceding the world in time.

Right now before you think - right now before any word appears there is just this - this is the present happening.

This kind of language can be found in the Bible, as in the declaration that Christians were chosen in Christ “before the foundation of the world”.
If the Bible writers were asked “What was before God, in time?”, their answer would have been that the question was meaningless because God is eternal.

This moment that is real is the present - the present is eternal. There is no time - time is an idea arising in what never arises (because presence is always). Knowing that this present happening is all there is uncovers the peace that lies beneath the fear. Believing and living in time is the suffering - one suffers from one's own delusion.

But there’s also another way of dealing with the question.
This involves recognising (as taught by Einstein) that time is to be counted as one of the dimensions of the physical world.
In other words, “time”, like space, is one of the features of the created world.

The 'created' world is made up in imagination right now. You really believe there is something outside presence but this is a false belief. Do not worship other as if you do you are deluded, deceived.
This is all there is but the mind holds ideas and beliefs about you living in a world - a world you feel separate from. There is no 'world' - there is only this present happening. The present is always happening and you are never separate from the happening.

But the question “What was there before?” is the kind of question that belongs to a universe defined by the dimensions of space and time.

There is no 'before' or 'after'. 'Before' and 'after' this ever presentness? This is the alpha and omega.
Yet 'before' and 'after' are what drive the mind mad.

Is it not the serpent who whispers the word 'become'? This is where the belief in more stems from.