Hidden in plain sight Phonecian coin.

Originally posted by Harte

Let us also note that, shortly after the arrival of Europeans, literally millions of South American natives succumbed to disease - almost certainly smallpox, primarily.

Where's the evidence for the big die-off from Pre-Columbian contact in antiquity? Why weren't the survivors of that catastrophe more immune to these diseases, the way Europeans were?

Harte

That's also a VERY good point I'd never even considered.
If Old World people with their Old World diseases had been visiting the New World previously, then, there'd have been at least some tolerance and resistance to the epidemics of plague proportions brought about by contact with the Spanish.
They wouldn't have died as readily easy from Old World diseases had they any previous contact that would have given either immunity, or at least resistance.

It'd certainly be interesting to take a look at pre-Columbian contact graves, mummies, and other preserved remains where DNA markers can be checked for genetic resistance/adaptation to Old World diseases.

Immunity or resistance to such may have been bred out of the indigenous populations by the time the Spanish arrived, but, were there any contact before that by Bronze Aged Pheonicians, Romans, Egyptians or anyone else speculated to have had South American contact/access/trade, there'd be markers in the DNA to indicate exposure to the Old World bugs, as well as potential markers found in Old World remains of contact with any exotic New World illnesses since contamination can work both ways.

Archeo-Immunological studies could very well shed some light.
Is there even an Archeo-Immunological concentration?
Whatever the case, best fit concentrations could give us some good indication.

Where we go, so also do the bugs and diseases we carry.

Originally posted by anonentity
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Opium was endemic in ancient times that would do it!

Opium at that time came from what is now Turkey

reply to post by Druscilla


If the diseases came to the NW they would have continued, ie they would have become part of the normal life cycle.

Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by Hanslune

 

Yes they kept trade routes secret BUT they traded extensively and their trade goods can be found everywhere in their trade network .........so what were the trading with the new world? 

Hmmmmm..... Alcohol and cigarettes?

Na, that can't be right. Tobacco was indigenous to the Americas.

Quad

That is a question. If there was trade what was traded!

Originally posted by anonentity
reply to post by Hanslune

 

I doubt whether they needed to trade anything, if you just started digging up ore and smelting it, who were you required to trade with? Most of the lands they might have dealt with were inhabited by hunter gatherers who would move on. If You gave them a knife, just to stay clear of the mining operation it would have worn out. According to industrial pollution sediments in lakes of Chile, the south American Indians started smelting 2000 years ago. They used arsenic bronze for tools, and tin bronze for household items.

More like 4,000 I think we are crossing/ mixing points from different posters.

From your original post do you have a link to the primary source of your claim?

IF the Phoenicians did trade with the Americas it would have been roughly 2 to 3 thousand years ago. Most of the Old World diseases that are being talked about here are fairly new. Many were brought about by the living conditions in O.W. cities. Chamber pots being emptied in the streets, rats breeding like crazy and spreading the diseases, and so on.
It is possible that there was ancient trade between the old and new worlds without the massive die off that occurred after 1492.

reply to post by Hanslune


Try this one mtholyoke.edu... his idea has been accepted by a numismatist publication with regards to ancient coins. This is the one regarding D.S. penelope.uchicago.edu...*.html when you get to the web site there is a google search at the bottom of the page type in diodorus siculus book 5 and hit on that for the account of the voyage.

Why would the Phoenicians bring small pox etc to the Americas? Yeah the Spanish did but they brought god knows what with them to create/spread a heck load of disease. Considering the Phoenicians are from middle eastern origin I can't imagine western disease being with them?

What are these 'Old World' diseases mentioned?

Also if I read they are rumored to have made it to the land of Aus I can see them heading out across to the Americas and also they had ties into Africa if they went to Morocco or somewhere down that coast say that journey from there to South America would be a shorter one.

reply to post by Hanslune


The English Government destroyed a lot of the evidence of the old government writings of England after 600 AD. If I remember the Anglo Saxons are supposedly said to have taken over about that time. The Old English filtered into societies all over Europe at that time in small communities. The Old English, Old French, Many Dark Laplanders, Old Germans, Some of the people of the Northern Russian countries,Many Irish and Some of the Scottish people also are in this line along with some of the dark Italians. I did some intensive studies on a particular genetic line of people which are probably related to my family history. Reading hundreds of articles brought me to articles of what happened to the Old English people. It is speculated that There was some kind of natural disaster there about 600 AD and the Anglo Saxons walked in and took over England. Much of the survivors may have moved to the Norway area where they had good relations.

I don't keep evidence, I do not have any interest in challenging consensus of the time. I am interested in finding out what others know, and I do look for evidence that substantiates it. I do not take anyones perspective anymore without looking at some evidence and the perameters of the backing evidence before deciding to except it. Every country that took over another country in the past tried to destroy any thing that conflicted with their ways, that is common knowledge. It still happens today, the victor writes history. You should know that, I thought you knew a lot about archeology.

There was some kind of natural disaster there about 600 AD and the Anglo Saxons walked in and took over England. Much of the survivors may have moved to the Norway area where they had good relations.

reply to post by rickymouse


The natural disaster you speak of was 2 fold, first there was the dust event of 536.
It may have been an eruption of krakatoa, or a possible impact event off the coast of australia. or or a cobinationbof both. What ever caused it the skies of the world darkened for a substantial period.
It snowed in July ,in Japan. that year, and the rice crop failed al through Asia.
In Byzantium an monk writing on daily events, coined the term "dark age "in reference to the extreme dimming of the sun by dust that summer,.
The cooling of the planet caused crops to fail around the world for the next couple of years, and this cooling also allowed something to happen, the spread of bubonic plague.
Known as the plague of Justinian, this first episode of plague came from Byzantine trade with east Africa and was spread to Britain via trade with the eastern empire. Since the Germanic peoples of nw Europe weren't on trading terms with the eastern empire they were mostly spared during the plague.
This whole episode is recorded in the imagery of the Arthurian legends, where the kingdom is dark and barren and devoid of people.
So in the years after the famine and plague, the Saxons, Angles and Jutes , whom already had a strong foothold in eastern england, spread into the newly depopulated districts of southern and western England.

Originally posted by punkinworks10

There was some kind of natural disaster there about 600 AD and the Anglo Saxons walked in and took over England. Much of the survivors may have moved to the Norway area where they had good relations.

reply to post by rickymouse

 

The natural disaster you speak of was 2 fold, first there was the dust event of 536.
It may have been an eruption of krakatoa, or a possible impact event off the coast of australia. or or a cobinationbof both. What ever caused it the skies of the world darkened for a substantial period.
It snowed in July ,in Japan. that year, and the rice crop failed al through Asia.
In Byzantium an monk writing on daily events, coined the term "dark age "in reference to the extreme dimming of the sun by dust that summer,.
The cooling of the planet caused crops to fail around the world for the next couple of years, and this cooling also allowed something to happen, the spread of bubonic plague.
Known as the plague of Justinian, this first episode of plague came from Byzantine trade with east Africa and was spread to Britain via trade with the eastern empire. Since the Germanic peoples of nw Europe weren't on trading terms with the eastern empire they were mostly spared during the plague.
This whole episode is recorded in the imagery of the Arthurian legends, where the kingdom is dark and barren and devoid of people.
So in the years after the famine and plague, the Saxons, Angles and Jutes , whom already had a strong foothold in eastern england, spread into the newly depopulated districts of southern and western England.

That sounds about right. I memorized concepts, not individual facts. I compare patterns or trends to try to find the big picture. I have more of a processing mind than a memorizing mind. I only seem to like to memorize patterns. This means when I research this kind of stuff I compare a lot of different writings from many cultures thought to be from about the same time, this gives me the ability to apply what I learn to other situations. I am not really booksmart, my ability is to compare and process information. This ability is the only reason I scored so high on the IQ tests I took in the past. I love the net, I can open ten windows and compare things to find answers to things. I only memorize the pattern I see. The pattern allows me to easily evaluate things, but the information I try to convert to a laymans language. I don't want to fill my mind with memorized words, it lowers my ability to process information.

Thanks for listing the information. If I remember there was something that happened a couple of hundred years before that also, the event you talk about was the final turning point I think. Around this time there was a major migration of humans also from that area in England. I suppose if people were dying, many left to areas where they had trade relations. I suppose if there was disease, this also spread the disease.

reply to post by anonentity


I think that coin is too small to see much of anything beyond what you want to see. Ophir was located in the southern tip of Israel, along what is now the Gulf of Aquaba, not too far from Yam Suph. They didn't need to circumnavigate Africa, Solomon had ports in Ophir on the Red Sea and the Mediteranean near Phoenicia near Sidonia.

Maybe contacts would have been sporadic rather than sustained,we have evidence of Viking contacts with ancient America but very little evidence of massive die offs or technology transfer, then again the mystery of the coc aine mummies


A case for ancient contacts.

Originally posted by Quadrivium
IF the Phoenicians did trade with the Americas it would have been roughly 2 to 3 thousand years ago. Most of the Old World diseases that are being talked about here are fairly new. Many were brought about by the living conditions in O.W. cities. Chamber pots being emptied in the streets, rats breeding like crazy and spreading the diseases, and so on.

If you knew what you were talking about, you might not have said that.

Plagues of diseases have been documented in Ancient Egypt. Actual plagues like smallpox and Bubonic plague.

If you are of the mindset, you might consider the Old Testimant plagues as well.

Sorry. Smallpox, polio, Bubonic, and many others have been with us for tens of thousands of years.

Originally posted by Quadrivium
It is possible that there was ancient trade between the old and new worlds without the massive die off that occurred after 1492.

Possible, but really, REALLY unlikely.

Harte

There is a book called 'Critical Path' by Buckminster Fuller. There he explains how the Phoenicians were the first world traders and evolved to become the world powers of today.

reply to post by Spider879


Howdy Spider

You may wish to look at the research that occurred after Balabanova original report which was from the 97. The failure to repeat her experiments and findings in regards to her initial report.

In other words no evidence of contact with SA unless you really stretch the data.

Originally posted by rickymouse

I don't keep evidence, I do not have any interest in challenging consensus of the time. I am interested in finding out what others know, and I do look for evidence that substantiates it.

A wonderful system you can say anything you want, make up anything you want but can then say you have no evidence.......so basically a way to avoid being shown wrong or defendin what you say....magnificient, lol. So you don't mind if I classify everything you say in the future as simply made up unevidenced heresay and therefore irrelevant, lol?

Every country that took over another country in the past tried to destroy any thing that conflicted with their ways, that is common knowledge. It still happens today, the victor writes history. You should know that, I thought you knew a lot about archeology.

You are talking about history not archaeology. You are incorrect, did the allies destroy German and Japanese history? Not to my knowledge. Did the North destroy the history of the Confederate states? Nope. Did the Romans destroy Greek history, nope. Did the Vikings/Normans destroy Sicilian or the history of Normandy or England? Did the Mongols destroy Chinese history, nope. Did then Moguls destroy Hindu history? Shall I continue? Where history has been destroyed by victors is known and it didn't happen everytime nor is it 'common knowledge' its a fringe meme repeated by those who don't do independent research and who mindlessly repeat what they've been told to believe.

You are generalizing way to much

Great reading your stuff thou!

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Howdy Spider

You may wish to look at the research that occurred after Balabanova original report which was from the 97. The failure to repeat her experiments and findings in regards to her initial report.

In other words no evidence of contact with SA unless you really stretch the data.

What! have you watched the end of the video where it was accepted by independent tests Bulovova was correct.

reply to post by anonentity


Thanks your link is broken

In ancient times this island remained undiscovered because of its distance from the entire inhabited world, but it was discovered at a later period for the following reason. The Phoenicians, who from ancient times on made voyages continually for purposes of trade, planted many colonies throughout Libya and not a few as well in the western parts of Europe. And since their ventures turned out according to their expectations, they amassed great wealth and essayed to voyage beyond the Pillars of Heracles into the sea which men call the ocean.

2 And, first of all, upon the Strait itself by the Pillars they founded a city on the shores of Europe, and since the land formed a peninsula they called the city Gadeira; in the city they built many works appropriate to the nature of the region, and among them a costly temple of Heracles, and they instituted magnificent sacrifices which were conducted after the manner of the Phoenicians. And it has come to pass that this shrine has been held in an honour beyond the ordinary, both at the time of its building and in comparatively recent days down even to our own lifetime. Also many Romans, distinguished men who have performed great deeds, have offered vows to this god, and these vows they have performed after the completion of their successes.

3 The Phoenicians, then, while exploring the coast outside the Pillars for the reasons we have stated and while sailing along the shore of Libya, were driven by strong winds a great distance out into the ocean. And after being storm-tossed for many days they were carried ashore on the island we mentioned above, and when they had observed its felicity and nature they caused it to be known to all men.

4 Consequently the Tyrrhenians, at the time when they were masters of the sea, purposed to dispatch a colony to it; but the Carthaginians prevented their doing so, partly out of concern lest many inhabitants of Carthage should remove there because of the excellence of the island, and partly in order to have ready in it a place in which to seek refuge against an incalculable turn of fortune, in case some total disaster should overtake Carthage. For it was their thought that, since they were masters of the sea, they would thus be able to move, households and all, to an island which was unknown to their conquerors.

Where do you think they got to?

Sounds like the Carnary islands, 'days'. Sailing/rowing craft cannot cross the Atlantic even under ideal conditions in days. The closest point between Africa and SA is 2,580 kilometers and there was no civilization in that part of Brazil.

Link to the book
Link

Originally posted by anonentity

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Spider879

 

Howdy Spider

You may wish to look at the research that occurred after Balabanova original report which was from the 97. The failure to repeat her experiments and findings in regards to her initial report.

In other words no evidence of contact with SA unless you really stretch the data.

What! have you watched the end of the video where it was accepted by independent tests Bulovova was correct.

Here's a sample of what you should be looking for

Paper

Care to point to the PRP that supports that? Youtube videos are not evidence.

Or from the lady herself

Balabanova, S., et al. 2001 "Nicotine use in early Mediaeval Kirchheim/Teck, Germany,” Homo 52(1): 72-76

“Human bone samples of 123 Alemans of the 5th to 7th c AD were investigated for nicotine. In 23 individuals nicotine was found at levels between 31 and 150 ng/g, and in 49 others nicotine was found in traces. The results indicate that in Germany plants of the genus Nicotiana should have been present, known and used, well before Columbus. The purposes behind this use might have been domestic/medical or ritual, or possibly even as a luxury as occurs today.”

So Nicotine is not a surprise so what about coc aine or more correctly the active ingredient?

Just ran out time so will complete this reply later