Senator Barbara Boxer's Own Experts Contradict Obama On Global Warming

In my opinion, whether or not it's happening is (mostly) immaterial. The fact remains that there are people who fully intend to exploit even the idea that it might be happening for their own political ends. These are people who simply want to undermine a system they hate. They do not care (in truth) whether it is real or not. But that it has a shroud of plausibility (in science) is mighty convenient for them. They certainly will work hard to maintain this.

Originally posted by BrianFlanders
In my opinion, whether or not it's happening is (mostly) immaterial. The fact remains that there are people who fully intend to exploit even the idea that it might be happening for their own political ends. These are people who simply want to undermine a system they hate. They do not care (in truth) whether it is real or not. But that it has a shroud of plausibility (in science) is mighty convenient for them. They certainly will work hard to maintain this.

This kind of thinking is always funny to me, even though it's not really funny at all, because we live in a reality in which elected officials diligently work to obfuscate the reality of global warming and what science says about it for their own political ends, that simply want to maintain a system that is no longer sustainable so that they can get rich protecting the billionaires that rely on global dependency on fossil fuels. They do not care (in truth) that it is real, but that it has a shroud of deniability (that doesn't exist in science but sure sounds like it does) which is mighty convenient for them.

You're (plural) so sure of future exploitation but you're ignoring present exploitation. On top of that you ignore future exploitation should even the mildest scenario come to light. Can you imagine that even if it's just global coasts that end up being affected, the heavily authoritative form that moving coastal peoples is going to take? Deciding how billions of people are going to move, where they are going to move, who gets to go where, temporary shelter... ?

reply to post by Kali74


China and india are causing most of the pollution because companies are not required to install scrubbers on their industrial chimneys. Did you see the smog present at the beijing olympics a few years ago? Black and sooty.

CO2 isn't the real issue. Sulfur and CO are bigger issues. Industrial waste disposal is another big issue as water is polluted constantly.

If you are going to insist on CO2 then look at all the deforestation going on. Not enough trees and plants to absorb it so a lot of it goes upwards into the atmosphere. And also the sun could be getting bigger and/or warmer.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by Kali74

 

China and india are causing most of the pollution because companies are not required to install scrubbers on their industrial chimneys. Did you see the smog present at the beijing olympics a few years ago? Black and sooty.

CO2 isn't the real issue. Sulfur and CO are bigger issues. Industrial waste disposal is another big issue as water is polluted constantly.

If you are going to insist on CO2 then look at all the deforestation going on. Not enough trees and plants to absorb it so a lot of it goes upwards into the atmosphere. And also the sun could be getting bigger and/or warmer.

edit on 21/7/13 by EarthCitizen07 because: (no reason given)

For global GHG emissions China is responsible for about 19%, the US 18% and India about 5%. China and India are also about to implement much more renewable energy programs and climate policies that more accurately reflect reality.

Co2 is the biggest issue in the past and present but will eventually take a back seat to methanes sulphur and carbon monoxide play very small roles. Absolutely industrial waste is a major problem for clean water and soils. Deforestation of course also plays a role. Our sun is not getting bigger and it is not getting warmer. In fact if we were to look at our climate based solely on the solar factor, we would be in a much cooler climate cycle.

If people really wanted to 'save the planet' stop blowing hot air thinking politician's or the US government is doing anything for YOUR best interest they aren't they couldn't give a crap about you the only thing they give a crap about is their power and control OVER YOU.

Go ahead and support Global Warming take a good look at what we have already seen:

Higher energy costs that has been translated across the boards, higher food prices,and trillions of job and wealth destruction, but who the hell cares right?

Save the planet!

And support that statolatry meanwhile China, and India and the rest of the world continues to pollute while your there getting all that awesome food aid, or that shiny new Iphone made in China.

Anyone who would give our government more power,the power of GOD himself is I am sorry to say delusional when one compares it to the historic abuse that is on display for everyone to see.

Originally posted by Kali74

For global GHG emissions China is responsible for about 19%, the US 18% and India about 5%. China and India are also about to implement much more renewable energy programs and climate policies that more accurately reflect reality.

CO2 is emitted by all industrialised nations and there is nothing that can be done about it. My bet is that china and india are responsible for releasing at least 60% of TOXIC GASES into the atmosphere. Call them greenhouse or whatever you want.

USA has had scrubbers installed for decades and that caused business to move to asia. Less costs for business plus the immensely cheaper labor. No tariffs as well between asia and usa.

Co2 is the biggest issue in the past and present but will eventually take a back seat to methanes sulphur and carbon monoxide play very small roles. Absolutely industrial waste is a major problem for clean water and soils. Deforestation of course also plays a role. Our sun is not getting bigger and it is not getting warmer. In fact if we were to look at our climate based solely on the solar factor, we would be in a much cooler climate cycle.

right. did you see or not see the black smog above beijeing olympics? black smog is NOT co2. try something else. and deforestation is a very real problem, i would say its almost out of control. no plants absorbing co2 can mean lack of oxygen and suffocation.

nasa confirmed that all our planets are getting warmer so obviously something is going on with the sun.

reply to post by neo96

Higher energy costs that has been translated across the boards, higher food prices,and trillions of job and wealth destruction, but who the hell cares right?

Map it out for us Neo, show us how 'fighting global warming' has done any of these things.

Anyone who would give our government more power,the power of GOD himself is I am sorry to say delusional when one compares it to the historic abuse that is on display for everyone to see.

Go ahead tell us how fighting global warming is going to give government more power. Doing nothing and letting it happen is almost a guarantee that such will happen.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

CO2 is emitted by all industrialised nations and there is nothing that can be done about it.

Sure there is plenty we can do about it.

And just FYI scrubbers having nothing to do with removing Co2 but So2 and they're used on coal plants, and we don't coal mine in China so scrubbers being placed on US coal factories has nothing to do with the export of jobs to China.

NASA did not confirm all planets are warming.

reply to post by Kali74


So why all that black smog in china then? JUST coal plants? I think not. And there are more toxic gasses than just so2. There has to be.

BTW co2 scrubbers have allegedly been developed small scale but seem too expensive to use. What solution do you propose in dealing with co2? Green energy if it exists, and it probably does, is being suppressed on purpose by big oil companies. They buy patents and small start-up companies all the time.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Ironically the best way to fight the fossil fuel cartels is to stop denying that burning fossil fuels contributes the most to global warming. Another way is to hold accountable, the politicians that supposedly support green technologies. Cronyism exists, it exists on both sides, obviously oil companies have more money influence but green technologies have buddies in office too. Accountability is what it's all about, if we educate ourselves on what's effective and what's not we become informed voters, informed voters can dictate the narrative. It takes work, it's that simple. Once we know what works best it becomes a matter of taking on the politics of oil, divesting from fossils fuels into green energy.

reply to post by Kali74


The whole idea of AGW is for the bankers to put the finishing blow on america by skyrocketing the prices of everything american and make people dependant on asian imports and government handouts. Then take away their homes, cars, boats, everything.

Make them total slaves to the system. Its working so far!

Its sad that people like you confuse AGW with pollution in general.

Originally posted by neo96
If people really wanted to 'save the planet' stop blowing hot air thinking politician's or the US government is doing anything for YOUR best interest they aren't they couldn't give a crap about you the only thing they give a crap about is their power and control OVER YOU.

Go ahead and support Global Warming take a good look at what we have already seen:

Higher energy costs that has been translated across the boards, higher food prices,and trillions of job and wealth destruction, but who the hell cares right?

Save the planet!

And support that statolatry meanwhile China, and India and the rest of the world continues to pollute while your there getting all that awesome food aid, or that shiny new Iphone made in China.

Anyone who would give our government more power,the power of GOD himself is I am sorry to say delusional when one compares it to the historic abuse that is on display for everyone to see.

edit on 21-7-2013 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

so...you're kinda on the fence about this.....i was wondering...of all the posts you write, is there anything positive about your life?...I mean, do you sit in a darkened basement and verbally pick scabs all day on websites. if you are so PO'ed all the time, you need to actually go out and find something to do that you might like.

in a hundred years, earth will be like it is in that new movie Elysium
www.itsbetterupthere.com...

reply to post by jimmyx


Nice ad hominem

I see how that works someone says something bad about global warming as in a political agenda then shoot the messenger as if that 'argue's' anything previously said.

Originally posted by Kali74


This kind of thinking is always funny to me

I don't think you got the gist of my post at all so there is really no point in me taking a lot of time.

reply to post by BrianFlanders


I think I got it pretty well. You're concerned that the possibility of global warming is allowing politicians to manipulate people.

I'm concerned that the extreme probability will allow politicians to manipulate people.

Originally posted by links234
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

So you're accepting that climate change is real ... ?

Even the most ardent AGW skeptic will tell you that the climate is changing. The debate is over "feedbacks" and the total influence of Man relative to changes that are otherwise taking place

...and that we should do something about it(?).

We should be allocating resources to present and short-term mitigation efforts, rather than trying to put our fingers in the CO2 dike while the BRIC and Indo-Asian countries expand their use of coal and overwhelm any carbon reduction policies foisted upon the U.S. citizens, as if they were martyrs to a global economy.

Originally posted by jdub297
Even the most ardent AGW skeptic will tell you that the climate is changing. The debate is over "feedbacks" and the total influence of Man relative to changes that are otherwise taking place

That's not true though. By AGW I'm assuming you're referring to anthropogenic global warming, meaning man-made global warming. Not everyone believes that humans are responsible for the climate changing but some people do believe the climate is changing. This kinda brings us to the next part:

We should be allocating resources to present and short-term mitigation efforts, rather than trying to put our fingers in the CO2 dike while the BRIC and Indo-Asian countries expand their use of coal and overwhelm any carbon reduction policies foisted upon the U.S. citizens, as if they were martyrs to a global economy.

If we are contributing, even if it's less than China, shouldn't we still do something? Shouldn't we take the lead rather than sit idly by waiting for China to play along too? I believe we'd stand on much better ground if we could move the discussions to, "We've done our part, now do yours."

I'm not suggesting a carbon tax is the answer, I'm not suggesting anything is the be-all-end-all answer. I'd just like a reasonable agreement on what is happening and then we can move onto what to do about it.

reply to post by Kali74


People like you keep saying that rich people are "hiding the truth about AGW" but you keep forgetting that "rich people are exploiting AGW"... AGW and the lie behind it is a multi-billion dollar industry that has made richer people like Al Gore, and that's a FACT...

Again, if there was any truth about AGW why do the main scientists proponents of this lie have to delete raw data, publish false information, try to silence any scientists who would try to verify their claims, and use other dirty tactics to hide the fact that "there is no proof AGW is being caused by humans"?...

How about you look yourself in a mirror and ask these questions?... What's more, if you believe so blindly in it, what are you doing using electricity and your computer everyday?...

If despite the fact that your AGW scientists have been caught lying, hiding facts, publishing false information etc, etc, etc, why don't YOU stop using that evil electricity, that evil computer of yours, etc, etc?....

Originally posted by links234
...
If we are contributing, even if it's less than China, shouldn't we still do something? Shouldn't we take the lead rather than sit idly by waiting for China to play along too? I believe we'd stand on much better ground if we could move the discussions to, "We've done our part, now do yours."

I'm not suggesting a carbon tax is the answer, I'm not suggesting anything is the be-all-end-all answer. I'd just like a reasonable agreement on what is happening and then we can move onto what to do about it.

Why do you even think that humans can "change or mitigate the climate"?... What is this "we are God" attitude that people like you have believing you can control the climate, and the universe in general?...

There is no proof whatsoever that mankind activities are the cause for Climate Change, NONE.

What people like you don't know, or understand is that some scientists and Universities under the patronage of governments are already sequestering atmospheric CO2, and this is a BIG problem.

I know about it because I was offered a job in one such research team when I was living in Wyoming. It seems that they sent similar emails to other people with computer and or electronic engineering experience like I have. Back then I made a report about it on the forums, but before that contacted my Senators and representatives, only one responded back and what he told me was that "we need to compromise with the AGW camp even if they are wrong", and that was it.

The problem with sequestering atmospheric CO2 is that once you start there is no magic switch to stop it, and by the time it is stopped it will be already too late. Not to mention that lowering atmospheric CO2 will lower the harvest yields worldwide.

You see, all plants, trees, and in general green biomass need atmospheric CO2, alongside some life forms, and when the atmospheric CO2 reaches a certain level plants, trees, and other green biomass's growth is stunted, which will mean even less harvests/food for us humans.

It is a known fact that most plants, trees and green biomass benefit with even HIGHER atmospheric CO2 content than exists now in our atmosphere, in fact optimum levels of atmospheric CO2 for most plants, trees and other green biomass is between 1,200-1,500 ppm, and right now the levels are about 380-390ppm.

Successful indoor growers implement methods to increase CO2 concentrations in their enclosure. The typical outdoor air we breathe contains 0.03 - 0.045% (300 - 450 ppm) CO2. Research demonstrates that optimum growth and production for most plants occur between 1200 - 1500 ppm CO2. These optimum CO2 levels can boost plant metabolism, growth and yield by 25 - 60%.

www.planetnatural.com...

There are other benefits of having higher levels of atmospheric CO2 than at present, for example.

Benefits to Plants

Literally thousands of laboratory and field experiments have conclusively demonstrated that enriching the air with carbon dioxide stimulates the growth and development of nearly all plants. They have also revealed that higher-than-normal CO2 concentrations dramatically enhance the efficiency with which plants utilize water, sometimes as much as doubling it in response to a doubling of the air's CO2 content. These CO2-induced improvements typically lead to the development of more extensive and active root systems, enabling plants to more thoroughly explore larger volumes of soil in search of the things they need. Consequently, even in soils lacking sufficient water and nutrients for good growth at today's CO2 concentrations, plants exposed to the elevated atmospheric CO2 levels expected in the future generally show remarkable increases in vegetative productivity, which should enable them to successfully colonize low-rainfall areas that are presently too dry to support more than isolated patches of desert vegetation.

Elevated levels of atmospheric CO2 also enable plants to better withstand the growth-retarding effects of various environmental stresses, including soil salinity, air pollution, high and low air temperatures, and air-borne and soil-borne plant pathogens. In fact, atmospheric CO2 enrichment can actually mean the difference between life and death for vegetation growing in extremely stressful circumstances. In light of these facts, it is not surprising that Earth's natural and managed ecosystems have already benefited immensely from the increase in atmospheric CO2 that has accompanied the progression of the Industrial Revolution; and they will further prosper from future CO2 increases.
...

www.plantsneedco2.org...

Higher levels of atmospheric CO2 in our atmosphere will mean that plants, trees, etc will grow more, produce more yields, and use LESS water, leaving more water for humans and animals.

We are having problems with potable water all around the world, and sequestering atmospheric CO2 will exacerbate the problem even more, not to mention that it will cause worse famines worldwide.

We also know for a fact, and despite deforestation, that because atmospheric CO2 levels have been increasing the planet has gotten "greener."

And again, the main question is, if there was irrefutable proof that anthropogenic CO2 is the main factor, or even a major factor behind the ongoing Climate Change, why in the heck do the AGW scientists have had to lie, post/publish false information, delete raw temperature data so that it can't be verified, try to silence any scientist who dares even question AGW, among other dirty tactics?...

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by Kali74

 

People like you keep saying that rich people are "hiding the truth about AGW" but you keep forgetting that "rich people are exploiting AGW"... AGW and the lie behind it is a multi-billion dollar industry that has made richer people like Al Gore, and that's a FACT...

The truth about AGW is out there, it isn't hidden. Rich people (Fossil fuel energy cartels like Koch Industries, Exxon Mobile, BP etc) are obfuscating the truth, putting 10's of millions into media campaigns, untold money into politicians pockets, and 10's of millions into think tanks to provide an illusion that science isn't sure or is lying about what is causing our current warming period.

What is this multi-billion dollar industry you're going on about?

Again, if there was any truth about AGW why do the main scientists proponents of this lie have to delete raw data, publish false information, try to silence any scientists who would try to verify their claims, and use other dirty tactics to hide the fact that "there is no proof AGW is being caused by humans"?...

They don't, you've only been told that they have and haven't bothered to find out if it's true or not.

How about you look yourself in a mirror and ask these questions?... What's more, if you believe so blindly in it, what are you doing using electricity and your computer everyday?...

Electricity need not be from fossil fuels, more than that I'm not going to chart out my life for you to show you my actions support my morals. It's none of your business. If I were rude like you, I could ask why you aren't in church begging God for mercy on our planet, but I won't ask you that because it's none of my business, I don't know you, I don't know your lifestyle. Just because I don't agree with you on a forum doesn't mean everything you do in your life is something I would consider bad or hypocritical.