Revelation : The whores "fornication" is usury.

reply to post by undo

females had no voice. i mean, why would a guy's daughter be forced to marry her rapist. it's HORRIFIC. family on hard times? just sell your daughter to the first guy who rapes her. good grief.

Back then, more often than not the women were willing to have unmarried sex to "hook" the man. Seduction also played a part in many cases when a woman had an exceedingly harsh father and she wanted to get out and have her own household so she could be at the top of the chain of command. People still do these things today minus the bride price for virgins. Women were not defenseless back then, they had their wiles and knew that men liked to have sex. Go look at Sparta, the women there refused to have sex with their men until Sparta went to war with Athens. Women do use sex to control, they did it back then and they do it now. It's a form of mind control which in the bible is classified as witchcraft.


BTW Enlil doesn't exist, he's a chunk of rock someone made with their hands.

reply to post by DISRAELI

In that case, you must also believe that the fornication is literal.

I thought I made it clear in the OP that the fornication was not literal, as the whore itself was symbolic of a city.
I also gave you the example of a statement about somebody being "in bed" with somebody else. Doesn't mean they are literally lying in bed with each other. The same applies to the whore and the kings.

Those who "belong" to the Harlot as trading partners are the same people who "belong" to the Harlot as her sexual partners.

The merchants belonged to the whore all along.
for thy merchants were the great men of the earth - Revelation 18:23

The whores sexual partners = kings/world leaders in league with her financial system.
i.e - They are in bed with her.

The whores merchants are the great men of the earth, who are behind the system and one with the whore. When the whore was destroyed, so was their means of making riches, which is why they mourn and weep over her.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

So since the "fornication" is metaphorical, there is no reason why the "attraction of wealth" should not also be metaphorical.
Since the whole book is about the persecution of the church, and is written for that purpose, it is more reasonable to suppose that this passage relates to the same subject (rejoicing in the downfall of the belief-system which was motivating the persecution).
I've explained that whole chapter in this thread;
Babylon's wake

reply to post by DISRAELI

So since the "fornication" is metaphorical, there is no reason why the "attraction of wealth" should not also be metaphorical.

The theme of the OP is that the fornication is a metaphorical way of describing a financial system/trade... which kings were part of and through which the merchants got rich from. The numerous verses about trade and mourning merchants supports this idea. Of course, its my stance that the trade/merchant bits are literal, intermingled with the "fornication", which is a metaphorical way of expressing a larger theme.

The point of this thread is not to debate what is metaphorical and what isn't. Both of us know that the Bible mingles the metaphorical with the literal. This thread is simply my assessment of 2 particular chapters in a book laden with symbolism and metaphors.

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
Call me unimaginative (or an @&!hole if you're catholic), but I've interpreted this passage to refer to the catholic church for some time now. Fortunes and kings have been made via the power of the papacy, and idolatry is in it's place. I know you already stated it's not up for debate, but it's a free internet, so there you go.

It could mean any type of religion that is designed to take advantage of the people. The Vatican's big thing was selling real-estate in heaven, and selling indulgences. Pay 20 pieces of silver, and you have 3 months to commit as much sin as your heart desires. 2000 years ago the Pharisees of Judaism were doing the same thing, they would come and make a giant spectacle of praying for widows insincerely , and the payment would end up a lien on the widow's home to which Jesus mentioned in Matt 23.

Matt 23:14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

Something to which a lot of fake christian evangelical hucksters do nowadays, selling "blessed handkerchiefs" for 500 bucks, or selling "miracle healings" for 250 dollars so some parapalegic wanting to walk can get up and jerk and jive and do the shake in some evil parody of a true healing. There are a lot of deceivers and wolves in sheep clothing running about looking to take advantage of the gullible.

reply to post by undo

Originally posted by Undo
you sound like a guy who has done some research. would you be so kind as to watch the video series i posted on the previous page and tell me what parts you think are incorrect?

I’ve only watched the first 3 videos...

Here are my thoughts so far…

Firstly, I believe there is kind of an “in house” greater knowledge kept within Islam. With certain descendants or Imams, apparently being closer to the line of Muhammad. I’ve encountered a few Islamic scriptures during my spiritual journey and discussions here on ATS etc…but just recently I’ve started reading the Quran, and have just found out that there are these 5 other books, which give a greater understanding to the Quran itself. Unfortunately, these 5 books are only written in Arabic, and have, as far as I’m aware,…never been translated into English.

Regarding a possible male and female deity worship in RCC church and Islam…consider this!!!…

According to the Hebrew Scriptures, its the God “Ale” who liberates the Israelites during the Exodus. And during Gods conversation with Abraham God asserts that He is Yahweh, and that he was also the God Ale, who brought them out of the wilderness…etc (Exodus 6:2-3)

The bible claims that Abraham arrived in Canaan and then set up a unique belief system based on a Monotheism…a belief in just one God. And then some 6-7 hundred years later, Joshua is said to have conquered Canaan which then completely established monotheism. In the pantheon of Canaan, however their God Ale (who was a Canaanite God) had a wife, a female God Consort, who’s name was Asherah. And Asherah worship is mentioned a few times taking place within Jerusalem in the OT.

However in a recent Canaanite dig site (about 30 years ago) archeologists discovered an artifact which contained an inscription of both the names Yahweh and his Consort Asherah, together, which dates to about the 8th century BC. There’s also an historic problem distinguishing the difference between an Israelite and a Canaanite based solely on historical evidence.

Looking further back, could Asherah be in some way an offshoot of the Babylonia Goddess Ishtar...it’s entirely possible. Ishtar’s main symbol was the lion, and in some depictions of Asherah, she’s seen standing between 2 lions.

I believe the book of revelations to be a Christian Gnostic text. And there is strong scholarly evidence by R. Bultmann that pre-Christian Judaism, of a Gnostic character, stemmed from the Essenes. And of course we know that the Gnostics believed in a Father, Mother and Son. So the big question is, is this Mother aspect Pagan, or was it always a part of ancient Judaic beliefs, that somehow just got slowly hidden away over time…?

- JC

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

4. When kings and merchants weep over a whore. And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning - Revelation 18:9 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more. - Revelation 18:11 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing. - Revelation 18:15

Just take a look at the interest rates coming out of the whore (Central Banks, The Fed for example) now, what are they 0.5%? 0.25%? Even a mention of scaling them back up causes havoc in the markets. A taste of her own medicine, why yes try wrapping your mind around a negative interest rate and that is what is meant by this:

Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. - Revelations 18:6

The only way forward is to have negative interest rates at the consumer level, I know it exists RIGHT NOW but has not trickled down, it will come up very soon. The choices are to either collapse the whole system and lose everything or to actually follow the flow of a sustainable system. Where taxes get lower due to more tax payers and a government that stays the same size (after it shrinks considerably). Where manufacturing of high quality goods that last 50 years makes a comeback and actually begin to cost less due to economies of scale. Economies of scale died with its discoverer Henry Ford, ever wonder why cars dropped in price only during his life, The break up of large corporations due to the need to create jobs, when you merge two companies you don't need two regional managers in the same region, just common sense. When you follow the small specialized business model of Germany where 80% of the economy is driven by highly specialized and WELL REWARDED labor, you will see massive economic growth.
So I leave you with this, by far my favorite movie clip because it shows our current situation and a reason to keep the chin up!
Reeelax partner *wink* huhuhuhuuuuu!

Rome is built on 7 hills, and is often identified as the whore of Revelations. ie Catholicism.

Originally posted by Amagnon
Rome is built on 7 hills, and is often identified as the whore of Revelations. ie Catholicism.

Vatican City isn't on the 7 hills. The whore isn't Catholicism.
Either it's Rome or Jerusalem ... but not Vatican CIty (ie Catholicism).

reply to post by undo

Originally posted by Undo
you sound like a guy who has done some research. would you be so kind as to watch the video series i posted on the previous page and tell me what parts you think are incorrect?

As for the rest of video, there’s a Lot to cover…

I’m pretty sure that most Catholics would argue that they don’t worship Mary, and that they only venerate her as a Saint etc…

The double square (like Skorpions Avater) being representative of Male and Female God, is curious. The same symbol is depicted on the free mason Kneph, although it’s also seen throughout Islamic architecture…however it appears to go much further back in time than Islam. It can be seen on some very old art work of Melchizedek, and is generally drawn onto his clothing or the surrounding scenery. It can also be seen on this very old Hebrew Bible below…



So the symbol, clearly has deep routes, further back in time, within Judaism…

As for Islam, there seems to be some kind of cross over, between the Christian Gnostic texts, and the Quran. Like for example Jesus turning clay into birds, is found in the Quran and also within the Infacny Gospel of Thomas. And in the “Gospel of Judas”, there a line where Jesus is talking about Heaven and describing it being like that "which no eye of an Angel has seen" etc…and the exact same words can be found in the Quran. It’s all very curious. It would appear as if Islam is getting some of beliefs, from these earlier Gnostic texts, which were deemed heretical by the early RCC.

I believe this is what happened with Islam’s interpretation of Jesus crucifixion; and that it came via a misunderstanding with some of Gnostic texts, specifically this one below from the “The Acts of John”

The Acts of John…97
Thus, my beloved, having danced with us the Lord went forth. And we as men gone astray or dazed with sleep fled this way and that. I, then, when I saw him suffer, did not even abide by his suffering, but fled unto the Mount of Olives, weeping at that which had befallen. And when he was crucified on the Friday, at the sixth hour of the day, darkness came upon all the earth. And my Lord standing in the midst of the cave and enlightening it, said: John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink. But unto thee I speak, and what I speak hear thou. I put it into thy mind to come up into this mountain, that thou mightest hear those things which it behoveth a disciple to learn from his teacher and a man from his God.

In many of the Gnostic texts Jesus seems to be able to go from having spiritual body, and then back to having a physical body again, similar to what is described in the NT, after His resurrection. I believe Islam took it’s understanding from the above verse, and therefore came to believe that Jesus was not crucified on the cross…

- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


well here's my take on it:

i am that i am translates from hayah asher hayah.
hayah is the root form of jehovah or yahweh.
i believe hayah is ea (pronounced ayah)

but notice, there's more than one hayah in the statement, with ASHER crammed in the middle.
i believe that's the sumerian triune -- enki anu enlil.

enlil shows up in the old testament as jehovah
enki shows up in the old testament as jehovah
and so does anu.
i traced the etymology of anu into egypt and from what i can tell, anu is amen, as in the egyptian amen, as in the name invoked at the end of every prayer in the bible.

i believe enki was jesus, redux.
ea (enki) is yah.

reply to post by undo

Originally posted by Undo
well here's my take on it:

i am that i am translates from hayah asher hayah.
hayah is the root form of jehovah or yahweh.

i believe hayah is ea (pronounced ayah)

Originally posted by Undo
but notice, there's more than one hayah in the statement, with ASHER crammed in the middle.

Yeah I noticed lol

But wait, Asher…seems seriously close to Asherah!!!…

But I guess you gota be careful with making things fit in English, because they may look completely different in their own language.

Originally posted by Undo
i traced the etymology of anu into egypt and from what i can tell, anu is amen, as in the egyptian amen, as in the name invoked at the end of every prayer in the bible.

I always thought Amen, translated to mean “we are in agreement”, which was why it was used at the end of Church prayers…

Originally posted by Undo
i believe enki was jesus, redux.
ea (enki) is yah.

Originally posted by Undo
i believe that's the sumerian triune -- enki anu enlil.

enlil shows up in the old testament as jehovah
enki shows up in the old testament as jehovah
and so does anu.

Wow!

This fits into my own theory, that both Jesus and the Father are both, our Co-creators…

What’s the redux part…?

-JC

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by Rex282

 

but you just got done saying in a previous post, that people should not be trying to figure it out, nor discuss what they think it means, yet here you are, figuring it out and discussing it. whatever could it mean?

edit on 14-7-2013 by undo because: (no reason given)

I don't know how I could have been any clearer."I" SUGGESTED not to try to interpret the book of Revlation knowing very well it is impossible to do so and also knowing very well no one who is trying to who can't hear will stop trying.I never said the things you said I did.I didn't say DON"T do this or else...I said it was useless... vanity.I responded in answer to to your question .

I said 666 is MATH not mysticism and explained what it is.That is not deciphering or decoding anything it is identifying what it is.I'm a musician and I know music theory very, very well but I don't decode or decipher it because I know it .I can hear it ....clear as a bell.I'm am just saying (or playing) what it means.Folks that can't "hear" and have no clue what music theory is cannot understand it all.It is a shot in the dark at a black ant.It is like someone beleiving they are "a" Mozart and trying to analzyze and explain "The Requeim" when they are deaf.It is never going to happen.

John wrote about "The book" with seven seals that couldn't be opened (revealed) but by the Lamb(Yahoshua)in Rev 5.That is the book of Revelation.No one can understand it unless Yahoshua reveals it to them.The book(the book of life) is the Salavtion of all mankind....and yes... book is a metaphor.Again in the book of revelation itself it says it can't be opened(deciphered)I am not saying anything new or deciphering.

It is not a book of predictions or past present or future historical events.All the nonesense of church history that the Yahoshuas disciples were waiting around for the end of the world and Jesus to "return" is all fantasyland dungeons and dragons.All the useless religious rituals and doctrines of men of who the "real" church is and who will be saved is even more nonsense.I can tell you exactly what and who the real church is and exactly who will be saved .....EVERYONE....yeh ...I spolied the ending for all the porn death doom and gloomers but they can't hear anyways.They love to dwell on death.Without it they wouldn't have a conspiracy to argue about on the internet.

I guarentee you I'm not arguing with anyone.If the death porn people think this is the end time and the NWO or Annunaki or whomever are going to take over the world who I am I to crash their insanity party.It won't help them anyways.I am only speaking the Truth for those that have ears to hear.God is 100% in control of everything.This is GODS universe(s) and world completly contrary to what most of the religious beleive. If I am wrong please feel free to spit extra acid in my eye on my way to hell.

Originally posted by Joecroft

--------------------
But I guess you gota be careful with making things fit in English, because they may look completely different in their own language.

Good advice to take.Messing around with names and trying to Latinize them is a cluster frack.

The bottom line is ALL The scriptures were written in numbers.Hebrew and Greek are alphanumeric languages.Which we have no positive proof they are even close to the originals.We can be fairly sure of a few things left intact.The name of God.which really means Nature.It is not about a spelling or pronunciation like it's a incantation of magic.
אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה

Translated from Hebrew it is
Ehyeh asher ehyeh

which literally translates as "I Will Be What I Will Be..referred more commonly as "I AM That I AM" or the tetragrammaton YHWH...(YaHWeH)

The Hebrew letters sum to 543. Moses (מֹשֶׁה)name sums to 345.Moses was the deliver(savior) of Israel
543+345=888

The new testament was written in Greek
In Greek Yahoshuas name is spelled
Ἰησοῦς

Yahoshua=Iesous
Ἰησοῦς=888

In Greek christ(christos) is Χριστός.
Χριστός= 1480
---------
Iesous+christos
888+1480=2368

2368/2=1184

888²+1184²=1480²
or
788,544+1,401,856=2,190,400

This is one of the other most prominent math theorems ....Pythagorean right triangle..
A²+B²=C²

and it is also a Fibonacci number(Fn) sequence
1480/ 888=5/3
Fn5=5
Fn4=3

and Phi.
5/3=1.666...............

This isn't proof of God.God can never be proved... it is fingerprints....evidence..NOTHING is a coincidence.EVERYTHING is signified by math....the perfect language of a creator.

One fly in your ointment of interpretation is that in the OT usury was forbidden between brothers but was encouraged with foreigners.

reply to post by Joecroft


redux means enki revisits his creation, this time as their human mediator.

see according to my theory, enlil was the accuser and for some reason, because of his position of authority (he was lord of the command and the title holder of the planet earth) the hebrews had assumed he was god. however, enki, who created humans (who are not the original adam, the original adam were something other than human), was constantly trying to defend them from the accuser. i began to see this as a sort of court room drama, where one is the prosecuting attorney (the accuser) and the other is the defense attorney (the savior). but that meant there needed to be a judge, and anu fit that bill quite well, because:

1. he was the heavenly father of enki and enlil. this fits references to the other creations that predated the 1st and 2nd adam. it also makes sense of the passage where jesus refers to his heavenly father as if he were a separate entity while praying in gethsesame. yet he was also known in the old testament as jehovah. so when he declares he is god and yet prays to his father as if it were not himself, it all started to fit into place. yes to the hebrews, jesus (enki) was jehovah, but so was anu and so was enlil.

2. in the book of job, the accuser goes before the throne of god, where he apparently has open access at the time, to complain about the humans wrecking his planet. this explains also, why the accuser attempts to bribe jesus by offering him control of the earth in exchange for his fealty, which would've done 2 things -- continued the horrible state of slavery we were all in, under enlil, and cut off our defense attorney in the court room, as he would've then been subject to enlil's views regarding the earth's inhabitants.

this theory requires that you agree that the planets, particularly in our local part of space, are owned, lock stock and barrel, by something that isn't human, and this planet is owned by a non human entity who doesn't like the creations on it. since enki created homo sapiens, this has manifested as him trying to rescue us in various ways, such as warning the sumerian noah figure about enlil's flood, giving us guidelines on how to keep enlil from freaking out about us messing up his planet with our general "disobedience" and finally, his appearance as a human savior, who with his death, bought the entire planet (part of the deal). this place no longer belongs to enlil, although he has been allowed to continue to interact with its inhabitants, primarily because we were given free will and a grace period to exercise it.

according to the bible, the criteria for noah's salvation was that he was fully homo sapiens. apparently not everybody was, because somewhere along in there, the earth was invaded by 200 "watchers" who polluted the homo sapiens genome, creating some kind of hybrid that sounded really nasty. whatever it was, it had a voracious appetite, worked the humans nearly to death, and when there was no food left, started eating the humans as well. the genome of the food on the planet was polluted, everything was sick. people were dying from all manner of nasty things, including being a food source for the hybrids. these hybrids were called the nephilim. yes enlil demanded the flood, but supposedly it was to get rid of the hybrids. unfortunately, it had the convenient (for enlil) side effect of also killing all the humans. i have a theory about that too. lol

enki was a geneticist -- a creator of life.
enlil was an environmentalist, who owned the planet, and didn't like enki's human creations. this is the source of the fall narrative.

reply to post by undo

Originally posted by Undo
redux means enki revisits his creation, this time as their mediator.

see according to my theory, enlil was the accuser and for some reason, because of his position of authority (he was lord of the command and the title holder of the planet earth) the hebrews had assumed he was god. however, enki, who created humans (who are not the original adam, the original adam were something other than human), was constantly trying to defend them from the accuser. i began to see this as a sort of court room drama, where one is the prosecuting attorney (the accuser) and the other is the defense attorney (the savior). but that meant there needed to be a judge, and anu fit that bill quite well, because:

Well, seems to fit IMO, the Hebrews thought this other God (Enlil) was the real God, but he was really the Father of Lies, that Jesus mentions in the NT. This would also explain how some prophets were following Enki (Jesus) and others were really following (Enlil)…

Originally posted by Undo
1. he was the heavenly father of enki and enlil. this fits references to the other creations that predated the 1st and 2nd adam. it also makes sense of the passage where jesus refers to his heavenly father as if he were a separate entity while praying in gethsesame. yet he was also known in the old testament as jehovah. so when he declares he is god and yet prays to his father as if it were not himself, it all started to fit into place. yes to the hebrews, jesus (enki) was jehovah, but so was anu and so was enlil.

Well, I believe God created many of these Spiritual beings, who I believe were Angels. My personal take is that Jesus was the first created Being/Angel. So yeah, so far your theory makes sense to me…

Originally posted by Undo
2. in the book of job, the accuser goes before the throne of god, where he apparently has open access at the time, to complain about the humans wrecking his planet. this explains also, why the accuser attempts to bribe jesus by offering him control of the earth in exchange for his fealty, which would've done 2 things -- continued the horrible state of slavery we were all in, under enlil, and cut off our defense attorney in the court room, as he would've then been subject to enlil's views regarding the earth's inhabitants.

Again, this kind of makes sense…After Jesus left, he stated that the Father of lies, was now the ruler of this world…

Originally posted by Undo
according to the bible, the criteria for noah's salvation was that he was fully homo sapiens. apparently not everybody was, because somewhere along in there, the earth was invaded by 200 "watchers" who polluted the homo sapiens genome, creating some kind of hybrid that sounded really nasty.

Yeah, the book of Enoch and the Archons mentioned in Gnosticism, seems to confirm just how nasty it was…

Originally posted by Undo
whatever it was, it had a voracious appetite, worked the humans nearly to death, and when there was no food left, started eating the humans as well. the genome of the food on the planet was polluted, everything was sick. people were dying from all manner of nasty things, including being a food source for the hybrids. these hybrids were called the nephilim. yes enlil demanded the flood, but supposedly it was to get rid of the hybrids. unfortunately, it had the convenient (for enlil) side effect of also killing all the humans. i have a theory about that too. lol

lol

Edit to Add – I take it you’ve seen this thread lol


- JC

reply to post by sk0rpi0n
+100500 apocalypse closer Αποκάλυψη with Greek disclosure

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Okay, if Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon, then fornication can't be usury, or else there is a large problem with your argument.

The reason is that Jerusalem is not the center of usury. Usury is established and maintained by banks all over the world. If you had to pinpoint a center for it, I'd say New York City, since that's where the HQ of most of the major American banks are located, and like it or not, America pretty much sets the standard for the rest of the world.

"The merchants of the Earth" from Revelations 18:11 is your clue.

Merchants conduct trade.

Another name for Earth is world.

Merchants of the earth= world trade center.

Many promiscuous women are rape or sexual abuse victims.

2nd

Usury ....meh

Show me a skank and I will show you nine times out of ten a women that was violated as a child.