Revelation : The whores "fornication" is usury.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Yes, persecution comes with the appearance of the Beast, but the Beast and the Harlot are working together in this persecution. That is the significance of the fact that the Harlot rests on the support of the Beast. That is the significance of "drunk with the blood of the saints".

The whore being drunk with the blood of the saints refers to Jerusalem being accused of killing prophets, saints and holy men. See: Matthew 23:29-31, Matthew 23:35, Matthew 23:37.You only assume in error that it somehow refers to the persecution of modern era Christians.

You say "persecution of Christians", but the passages regarding the beast says anybody who refuses to accept the mark and worship the beast would be persecuted.... not just the Christians. Now what makes you so certain that other religious group would gladly accept the mark? Do you suppose the Muslims will not resist the beast and face persecution?

The truth is, the majority of the modern Christians dwell within the safety guaranteed by their powerful governments and militaries - in Europe and North America. Besides, Christianity has already been subjugated by the forces of secularism and so Christians don't pose a thread to the forces of the beast. Its hard to imagine Christians living in powerful Western countries being attacked by the forces of the beast. If anything at all they would be in league with the forces of the beast.

In a Christian book, written for Christians, the"holy people" is necessarily going to be a reference to Christians.

This is a Christian book, written for Christian purposes, which focuses around the person of Jesus and the atonement for sin acccomplished by his death on the cross.... If you are not a Christian, the book has no relevance for you.

It may be a Christian book, but it still remains a book that throws light on the events to take place in the future. Its open to anybody, as there is no rule that only Christians can interpret it correctly. Take for example, the verse about the number of the beast. It invites anybody with intelligence to figure out the number of the beast... not just Christians. The same can apply to other mysteries as well. And I have demonstrated the same with the mystery of the whore as well.

It is both absurd and presumptuous to try to read non-Christian meaning into a Christian book

I'm not reading a non-Christian meaning into anything. The book of Revelations also talks about non-religious aspects of end time events, such as finance and trade...which doesn't pertain to Christians. This is what the OP is talking about.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Fornication, when taken into context with the OT prophets, is speaking about chasing after idols and other gods, or "playing the harlot" with false gods. Commiting adultery against God. There are two types of idolatry, old school idolatry worships objects, modern idolatry comes in the form of self worship, or self gratification that can be found in humanism and Neo-Platonism (a.k.a. Atheism). The book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is an amalgamation of many OT prophets end time prophesies.

"Fornication" meant idolatry in context to the OT. Yes.
But the theory of "fornication" being idolatry and false religions doesn't sit well with the narrative of the whore in Revelations 17 and 18, mainly because of the several references to merchants and trade throughout Revelation 17 and 18.

We clearly see that there exists a direct co-relation between the whore / fornication and merchants of the earth growing rich. The merchants a.k.a businessmen / bankers are described as being the whores own. Which explains why they weep and mourn over the whores destruction.... which led to their financial losses.

Its clear that Revelations 18 is talking about the collapse of a corrupt financial system, NOT idolatry.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
It may be a Christian book, but it still remains a book that throws light on the events to take place in the future. Its open to anybody, as there is no rule that only Christians can interpret it correctly.

As a book written by Christians for Christians, it can onlybe honestly interpreted if given a Christian meaning.
It would be absurd, as well as dishonest, to treat it in any other way.

Karl Marx taught that capitalism was a bad idea.
If I think capitalism is wonderful, I don't try to prove my point by demonstrating out of his writings that Karl Marx thought capitalism was wonderful. That would be absurd.
I just accept his writings as meaning what they say, and disagree with them.

Revelation is clearly talking about the persecution of the church, as a joint effort (the Beast and the Harlot)
In both ch13 and ch17 it is "the saints" who are under oppression, and in New Testament language "the saints" means the church.
If you don't think the church will be persecuted, then you're obliged to conclude that Revelation got it wrong.
But the argument that Revelation meant something else is dishonest and illegitimate.
It shows an ignoranceof the spirit and language of New Testament writings, which always handicaps you when you try to comment on them.


The book of Revelation does not have the function of generally "throwing light on events in the future".
It is a manual on "the prospect of persecution and how to cope with it".
EVERY part of the book is dealing with the persecution of the church, one way or another.
Some parts describe the persecution, symbolically, others explain why it's happening.
While other parts are offering a sight of God's response.
The message of the book is "You must not despair when the church is persecuted, because your God has not deserted you, and will bring an end to all the evil".

This book is intended as a message of hope for Christians. Therefore if you are not a Christian, the book has no relevance to you.

[P.S. I have read newspaper reports of Christians in danger of lynching in Muslim ccountries, so I think I can guess where persecution might come from]

As a corrective to your failure to understand the book Revelation, I suggest that you peruse this treatment of it;
Revelation; Project Complete

reply to post by Joecroft

2 Usury was an abomination in the past…Check

Considering how neither Jesus nor any other prophet lifted the ban on usury, its safe to assume that usury is still an abomination. Today, all the nations are drunk on it.... i.e - the whores fornication.. regardless of our religious beliefs or race. The nations are all drunk on it, which explains why interest banking is considered "normal". It isn't, and whore's system would be the culmination of it.

he word “wine” is a term often used in Essene and Gnostic traditions, and generally refers to attributes and fruits of a person or something. This can either be negative or positive fruit. In this case, it’s something negative, connected to the Whore.

In this case, its the negative affects of the whores fornication. The nations are drunk and deceived by it.

The whores "fornication"deceives nations while it makes (her) merchants rich.
How exactly are merchants getting rich over this? Why are the whores merchants called the "great men of the earth"? Why do merchants mourn over the demise of the whore? Once you understand the whores fornication to be a corrupt usury based financial system, you have the answer to all these questions.

Some people say the whores fornication is a false religion or idolatry. But if it were so, then atheists and agnostics would be exempt from it... as they are indifferent to any religion that would emerge. Only a corrupt financial system truly transcend the boundaries of religion, race, ethnicity the world over. Even atheists and agnostics are affected by it, thus making it a truly global deception.

I’m curious though, you’re a Muslim right?, so how is the book of Revelations relevant to your beliefs…?

All I can say is that I am quite familiar with Christian eschatology and it is relevant to my beliefs. I wouldn't want to side track my own thread by debating the verses you posted.

reply to post by DISRAELI

As a book written by Christians for Christians, it can onlybe honestly interpreted if given a Christian meaning.

I am not even touching the parts pertaining to the Christian. My entire focus is on a rather secular topic...i.e - the whores fornication, that deceives the entire world.... regardless of race and religion or even lack of religion. It is something that only a corrupt financial systems can achieve,

If you don't think the church will be persecuted, then you're obliged to conclude that Revelation got it wrong.

I don't think the church would be persecuted on the scale you imagine because...
a) There is nothing left of the church to persecute. It was over when you let the secularist take over decades ago. You live under the fist of godless secularism.... which would also be the nature of the beasts empire.

b) Christians living in the powerful nations of the west and the US, though weakened... would be safe from persecution. The beasts regime along with its high tech army would be allied to your powerful countries... and so would have no real reason to go after an already subjugated population.

[P.S. I have read newspaper reports of Christians in danger of lynching in Muslim ccountries, so I think I can guess where persecution might come from]

I guess your newspapers don't report instances of Muslims being invaded and bombed by hi-tech Western countries. Even today, its the Muslims... not the Muslims, who are in constant danger of being invaded and bombed by foreign forces.

The same pattern is going to play out in the end times when the beast controls a hi-tech army and while being supported by the West.... and it will go after the Muslims, who would be concentrated in large numbers in the middle east, which is where most of the action is going to take place.

But of course, your pastors and your church leaders have painted for you a dreamy picture of Christians facing persecution by a foreign forces in the middle of American towns and cities... which is what you keep repeating. I guess a terrorist attack here and there is, in your eyes, equal to the whole scale invasion and conquest which the Muslims have been facing.

As a corrective to your failure to understand the book Revelation, I suggest that you peruse this treatment of it;

Ah, yes. Link me back to one of your own threads. No thanks, I know what I'm reading.

Just reading the opening post ... haven't gotten to the rest of the thread.
(will comment on that later)
Looks like the OP is trying to sell Christians on Sharia Banking by slamming non-Sharia banking.
(without using the term 'sharia') Stealth Jihad .... pretty transparent.

Take note ... USURY .... Sharia says it's a 'no-no' Thus the attempt by the OP to link
'the whore of bablylon' with uuary. Trying to scare the Christians with spooooky language.

Sharia Principles of Banking

The Sharia Law of Islamic Banking
Sharia law is the law of Islam. The rules concerning financial transactions are known as Fiqh al-Muamalat. The most prominent of these laws are the laws concerning the charging of interest or fees on loans or usury fees. This is known as Riba. Islamic banking laws also forbid investing in financial unknowns, such as trading in futures, and in businesses that participate in ventures that are against Islamic principles.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Considering how neither Jesus nor any other prophet lifted the ban on usury, its safe to assume that usury is still an abomination.

Jesus was concerned with the spiritual .. not about banking practices and/or politics.
Do not tell lies .. do not commit kill ... love God ... pray always .... that kind of thing.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Looks like the OP is trying to sell Christians on Sharia Banking by slamming non-Sharia banking.

I said nothing of that sort.
I'm talking about prophecy here, so don't try and derail the thread.

If you believe usury based banking is what the Bible calls for, then go for it by all means.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Why take the log out of your brothers eyes when you 5 logs in your own eyes concerning fornication unto man=made laws under the guise of God for self justification of evil ways that does not hold up in the Sevenfold Universe, useless teacher, an abomination to God in all your filthy motives to twist reality and deceive people.

You will be judged according to your witness and motives of deception, don't worry about anybody else, you are on thin ice including your whole religion of deception, you cant even demonstrate the truth of the day and never will able to.

reply to post by sevens8


I don't know what you are on about.

But a lot of threads pop up on this part of ATS attempting to resolve prophetic mysteries, and this is one of them. Take it or leave it.

I'll get back to you when you have something to say about the subject matter of the OP.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I said nothing of that sort.
I'm talking about prophecy here,

OF COURSE you didn't come out and directly say it. But it seems rather obvious. Your religion is against usury. So you are trying to get Christians to think that their big bad revelation monster is usury. That way perhaps some of them will abandon the Christian religion and run over to Islam where the usury monster doesn't live. Right? Seems pretty obvious to me ....But hey ... if you say that's not what you are up to ... fine. Continue on ... Enjoy your thread. (BTW ... not that you care ... but I don't believe you)

reply to post by FlyersFan

OF COURSE you didn't come out and directly say it. But it seems rather obvious. Your religion is against usury. So you are trying to get Christians to think that their big bad revelation monster is usury

One of the advantages of posting on a forum that is religion-neutral... is that one can be direct about what he wants to express. I knew exactly what I wanted to express and I did. Too bad you think I was trying to imply something else.

I'll get back to you when you find yourself in a position to address the matters outlined in the OP. Take your time.

Your allah religion is about to go down into the pit by the arm of the Lord in truth demonstration. Don't give me any of that sophistry, it is finished, it is done, you might have 1.5 billion by impost but you have not got the truth at the end, you have nothing and the religion will collapse unto the breath of the lord unto truth.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I am not even touching the parts pertaining to the Christian.

There are no parts NOT pertaining to the Christian.
It is a Christian book, teaching purely Christian themes from beginning to end

I don't think the church would be persecuted on the scale you imagine because...

In that case, your natural conclusion, as I've already pointed out, is that Revelation got it wrong.
Revelation undoubtedly talks about the oppression of the church- you can't get around that point.
That is the meaning of the phrase "the saints", as I've already pointed out.
If you disagree with that expectation, then you disagree with Revelation.
You're entitled to do that- but you're not entitled to argue that Revelation disagrees with itself.

Do we try using verses out of the Koran to prove that Mohammed thought he was a false prophet?
Would that be a legitimate way of proceeding?
Or do you accept that the meaning of a book is controlled by the intention of the writer?- and in this case, you're dealing with a Christian writer, and the meaning can only be a Christian meaning.

reply to post by sevens8

Your allah religion is about to go down into the pit by the arm of the Lord in truth demonstration. Don't give me any of that sophistry, it is finished, it is done, you might have 1.5 billion by impost but you have not got the truth at the end, you have nothing and the religion will collapse unto the breath of the lord unto truth.

A lot of Christians have been able to discuss the OP, even though they may disagree....so your inability to discuss on topic speaks a lot about you.

It appears you'd rather rant about Islam than address the subject matter of the OP. So, I'm going to have to ignore you from this point on until you change your tune. Have a nice day.

reply to post by DISRAELI

There are no parts NOT pertaining to the Christian.
It is a Christian book, teaching purely Christian themes from beginning to end

What exactly does a usury based financial system have to do with Christianity? Nothing.
Its a religion-neutral institution that deceives the world while making the elite rich.... which is the exact state of the world today and a perfect reflection of the theories put forward in the OP.

In that case, your natural conclusion, as I've already pointed out, is that Revelation got it wrong.
Revelation undoubtedly talks about the oppression of the church- you can't get around that point.

Chapters 17 and 18 was my point of focus and there is nothing about the persecution of the (modern day) church. You speak of the part about the whore being drunk with the blood of saints, but I've already shown you that it refers to an accusation Jesus made about Jerusalem... that it has the blood of all the holy men.

Or do you accept that the meaning of a book is controlled by the intention of the writer?- and in this case, you're dealing with a Christian writer, and the meaning can only be a Christian meaning.

You seen to be implying that only Christians would know exactly what Christian writers were referring to.
By that logic, I guess one needs to be Jewish/Hebrew to know what the prophecies of the Old Testament were actually saying. So Christians can't deal with Hebrew writers, and then try and extract Christian meanings from a document that was originally written by non-Christians for non-Christians.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
What exactly does a usury based financial have to do with Christianity? Nothing.

Quite so. But Revelation is not talking about "usury -based financial".
As I've already pointed out (because you keep going in circles), Revelation is talking about idolatry.
The Harlot is attracting the people of the world into some belief-system which will be the basis of the world's persecution of the church.
That attraction is described under two different metaphors- sexual seduction (ch17) and the lure of wealth (ch18)
The "trading and wealth" is just as metaphorical as the fornication.
I've said all this before (but you do keep going round in circles)..

Chapters 17 and 18 was my point of focus and there is nothing about the persecution of the (modern day) church.

They go together with ch13. The Harlot is riding on the Beast. They can't be separated. If one section is talking about the time of the end, then they both are.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The "trading and wealth" is just as metaphorical as the fornication.

You are just saying its "metaphorical" because you simply can't explain all those numerous references to trading and merchants.
Why are merchants called "great men of the earth"?
Why are the merchants called as the whores own?
Why are merchants being referred to as being the whores own?
Why is it that the merchants weep and mourn over the whore so much?
Seriously what is it with the merchants and the whore?

Of course, you can just dismiss it all by saying its all metaphorical, but then the same can be applied to almost anything the Bible talks about. Not a very intelligent way of deciphering prophetic symbols.

The Harlot is attracting the people of the world into some belief-system which will be the basis of the world's persecution of the church.

So how exactly are merchants getting rich off the whores scheme? What does it have to do with people not buying their cargoes?
If you insist its a belief system, then can we assume that atheists and agnostics are 100% safe from the whores deception, since they won't accept any religious belief?

They go together with ch13. The Harlot is riding on the Beast. They can't be separated. If one section is talking about the time of the end, then they both are.

I'm not trying to separate one from the other. I already said that the whore rides the first beast.
But chapter 18 has more to do with a corrupt financial system than persecution of people.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

In that case, you must also believe that the fornication is literal.
The book Revelation is not a generalised "future history".
The whole book is a manual about the possibility of persecution, designed to encourage faith and perseverance on the part of those who are "washed with the blood of the Lamb".
It has no interest in talking about any other subject

Those who "belong" to the Harlot as trading partners are the same people who "belong" to the Harlot as her sexual partners.
They are the people being drawn into her religious belief system.