The 6 Types of Atheists and Non-Believers in America

reply to post by BlueMule


Alright. Can you perhaps give me one thing I'm missing about them? You seem to have a deep insight into my worldview so you should know what at least one important thing I should consider would be. I am not being sarcastic. Please, before you write me off, can you please help me understand one basic and important thing? Please?

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Philodemus

 

I try not to be mean. Sometimes it's hard not to get flustered when you are genuinely concerned for the person you are speaking with.

Well, I'm not sure what Bluemule's beef is in the context of this thread - but I didn't find your post to be inflammatory, and I don't know the history of exchanges between you two, either.
I suppose maybe he read what you posted and thought it was "negative" toward me?????

*pouty face* Please don't fight, you guys.

Sometimes it's hard for non-religious people such as yourself to understand why a religious person is offended by smug, arrogant, condescending #4s because they aren't on the receiving end of it.

reply to post by Philodemus

There is no history between us that what is confusing me. Can you re-read our exchange more carefully and see if you can find where I went wrong with blue?

*whistle and yellow flag - ref steps onto field*

I think it was when you said something about people being "mistaken" and needing "correction." But, I don't know blue all that well, either. It took him and me some time to find a peaceable mode of communication.

@ the other team: Bluemule? Would you say that's accurate?

EDIT: GRAMMAR! I'm pedantic!!!!!
"Him and me", not "he and I."

Originally posted by Philodemus
reply to post by BlueMule

 

Alright. Can you perhaps give me one thing I'm missing about them? You seem to have a deep insight into my worldview so you should know what at least one important thing I should consider would be. I am not being sarcastic. Please, before you write me off, can you please help me understand one basic and important thing? Please?

Sorry, too late. I already wrote you off.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Philodemus

 

There is no history between us that what is confusing me. Can you re-read our exchange more carefully and see if you can find where I went wrong with blue?

*whistle and yellow flag - ref steps onto field*

I think it when you said something about people being "mistaken" and needing "correction." But, I don't know blue all that well, either. It took he and I some time to find a peaceable mode of communication.

@ the other team: Bluemule? Would you say that's accurate?

Yep, pretty accurate.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by BlueMule


No, I know perfectly well how people such as, say, Richard Dawkins or the late Mr Hitchens come across to the religious. I do get that.

Some of us who are non-religious feel the same way about the 'proselytizers' telling us we're going to burn in hell, too. It's all good. I hope you don't leave in a huff. Philo seems to be trying to build a bridge. No go??

Originally posted by wildtimes


I worry the most about the people who as children were taught "only we are going to heaven" and so on and so forth......and hellfire and brimstone...and rapture and original sin.....
that kind of thing.

That was me for 20+ years. I was raised in a very aggressive Christianity with an aggressive apologetic. I think that is what motivates me to "fight" back. Almost to show them I can be as passionate about reason as they can be about faith. I don’t know. I think that if you find something that excites you and accords with the way you think reality is put together, you get excited and you want to share it and win people over. My worldview brought me so much freedom from guilt and ethical confusion, that it’s often hard not to seek out what, in my opinion, is wrong or immoral. I dunno. I want to respect people and change their minds at the same time.....I don’t see why that should be considered condescending or whatever....


P.S. I'm not 10 feet away from two people who hold firm to their belief in god even though they have no reason to believe and we get along just fine. We talk about religion and philosophy all the time and they never get mad at me or offended. We respect each other. I will not apologize on behalf of other non-believers that Blue has encountered in the past. I will also not accept any of their guilt on to myself. I am a fair and loving person. I also know that I am right. My metaphysics are sound. I don't know why that is offensive....
Why hold beliefs if you do not think they are right? Even if you say it is experience based, then your beliefs are based on experience and therefore usurp whim and fancy. So, whether you want to believe what you do or not is not an option. You hold your beliefs because you feel they are right based on your experience.
If you feel that your beliefs are right, then that means that you will encounter people who are wrong. I am wrong according to Blue. That’s fine. Blue feels I am wrong because I don’t believe what she does and I am sure that she thinks that the world would be a better place if myself and others like me believed as she does. That’s where I get terms like “correct” and “mistakes”. It’s simple and as honest as I can be here on a forum. The only way you could get a better idea is to meet me.

reply to post by Philodemus

I want to respect people and change their minds at the same time.....I don’t see why that should be considered condescending or whatever....

I know what you mean. Just depends on the listener. No worries here, mate.
(Have you any interest in sharing your story in the link in my sig? Or, did you already? I'm trying to put together a one-stop-shop so members can read the "history" of contributors and members in terms of their religious 'upbringing' and 'experience.')

Have you ever read The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James? Written about 120 years ago - Fascinating look at religiosity with a psychological/human nature focus. Highly recommend it. It's free online.


Oh, just so you know: Blue is a guy.

Originally posted by wildtimes

Some of us who are non-religious feel the same way about the 'proselytizers' telling us we're going to burn in hell, too.

Some of us who are religious get that from the 'proselytizers' too. In case you haven't noticed, fundamentalists go after people like you and 'heretics' like me too. So some of us get it from both sides.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Philo seems to be trying to build a bridge. No go??

To what end? So that he can feel good about himself by helping out a poor mistaken religious nut? How charitable of him.

No go.

reply to post by BlueMule

fundamentalists go after people like you and 'heretics' like me too. So some of us get it from both sides.

Yep. We sure do!
Thick skin required.

I'm wondering what Philo's metaphysical stance is now. Are you interested to hear about it?? I am.
EDIT:

No go.

Or, not.

It just seems to me you might be closer in beliefs than either of you are aware. But, your call, hard-won friend.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by BlueMule

 

fundamentalists go after people like you and 'heretics' like me too. So some of us get it from both sides.

Yep. We sure do!

Thick skin required.

I'm wondering what Philo's metaphysical stance is now. Are you interested to hear about it?? I am.

No I'm not but if you want to de-rail your own thread go for it.

Why do people want to change peoples Minds? Is the incessant need to make people agree with your way of thinking somehow comforting? Is that why we surround ourselves with likeminded people?

The fear of being wrong forces people to try and convince others of their beliefs, because the alternative is to difficult for them to comprehend.

reply to post by Briles1207

Why do people want to change peoples Minds? Is the incessant need to make people agree with your way of thinking somehow comforting? Is that why we surround ourselves with likeminded people?

The fear of being wrong forces people to try and convince others of their beliefs, because the alternative is to difficult for them to comprehend.

Well, I'm fairly confident that the urge to "change people's minds" is more about 'helpfulness' than 'superiority.'

In my case, I try to point out what I see 'wrong' with CERTAIN, SPECIFIC methods of indoctrination. I am an Agnostic Deist. I am anti-"fear-and-shame" - although certainly I have learned a lot from members who come from the "uplifted-and-positive" religious camp.

I just protest the "you are born a hopeless sinner" bit. In my opinion, any Creator Force would not be vengeful or punitive. But, that's just my personal take on the topic.

So, in my case, I debate with the objective of helping people feel relieved of the SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS and oppressive burden of "shamefulness", "unworthiness", "hopeless-sinnerdom" and "fear of hell." And condemnation of others.

reply to post by wildtimes


I see, so what you are saying is you don't try change peoples minds, you simply explain the flaws in their beliefs and hope they realise themselves?

Rather than forcing your own beliefs upon them?

The first moment I was officially introduced to my country's chosen religious belief...as a child...I couldn't wrap my head around the fact that people believed in different Gods...and they all thought theirs is the right one. It made no sense to me as a child...and it persisted to this day.

But I have learned...that you can not, and should not try to "liberate" them. Some people need faith to survive. They depend on the notion of heaven. And for all purposes...for some...it appears to have a positive effect. It keeps some people from going bonkers on the rest of the population.

Only thing that bothered me about believers...is how come they don't want to question..."what is the truth?". Some look happier not knowing.

If the one true God exists...it would be self evident to all. Same as it is self evident who is the king, or the president...yet...we believe in whatever deity resides in the area of our birth. If you were born in the middle east...you would most likely believe in Allah. If you were born in Ireland...you will believe in Christian God...simply because you inherit the belief...it is not something you choose really...well most people don't anyway.

Indeed...we have no more understanding of the God concept than our ancient ancestors had. We have inherited the faith as done deal package, and most don't dare question it...out fear of eternal damnation, ingrained in the philosophy of most religions.

Anyway...There is one brand of believers that I have high respect for...and they profess to believe in one true creator of all things...Intelligent designer...but they don't recognize that designer in any of the worlds religions...and they care not about labeling him or naming him.



I think this thread has taken a wrong turn somewhere

Originally posted by Briles1207
Why do people want to change peoples Minds? Is the incessant need to make people agree with your way of thinking somehow comforting? Is that why we surround ourselves with likeminded people?

The fear of being wrong forces people to try and convince others of their beliefs, because the alternative is to difficult for them to comprehend.

I'm sure you realize that goes both ways.

Personally, I think its because the mind connects the members of a tribe. We form tribes and mythology emerges from it... a controlling narrative which performs certain functions for a tribe... among them to orient the psychical energy of the collective tribe mind. So there is a motivation to get tribe members on the same page.

I include in that the 'tribe' of #4s and their anti-theist mythologies (scientism, atheism, materialism, etc)

reply to post by wildtimes


I have not contributed to your link, but I will.
I have read all of William James. I don’t read fiction. I don’t watch T.V. Studying religion and philosophy is all do outside of raising my kids and making money. That’s why I found it confusing that Blue would accuse me of a priori and commit the same thing. She has no experience with me. Therefore, her knowledge about my knowledge is a priori. No? I know a lot about my opponent’s views. Not everything, but enough to make educated statements. For instance, most (not all) theistic/mystical metaphysics are based on the primacy of consciousness. This is the fundamental point at which I disagree. But it is not arrogant to feel you are right. It is consistent. There is a difference.

reply to post by Briles1207

you simply explain the flaws in their beliefs and hope they realise themselves?

Not exactly. I simply explain how the religious teachings of worthlessness, powerlessness, fatalism, and shame are not productive to a healthy, happy life. I actually try to help them release the inherent "self-loathing" that comes with SOME FORMS of dogma and religious indoctrination.

I would like for people to recognize and own their indoctrination -- and feel okay about questioning it -- without feeling they are crumb-bums (in the literal sense of the term: i.e. "not worthy so much as to gather the crumbs from under "God's" table. Done things wrong that they didn't know about - failed to do things they were supposed to but didn't know about....that sort of stuff.)

reply to post by MarioOnTheFly

Indeed...we have no more understanding of the God concept than our ancient ancestors had. We have inherited the faith as done deal package, and most don't dare question it...out fear of eternal damnation, ingrained in the philosophy of most religions.

Anyway...There is one brand of believers that I have high respect for...and they profess to believe in one true creator of all things...Intelligent designer...but they don't recognize that designer in any of the worlds religions...and they care not about labeling him or naming him.

I'm on board with your thinking, Mario.

And the "turn" the thread has taken is okay. It wasn't that 'pointed' of a thread to begin with. Maybe we can all help "clear the collective air", though -
believers have the same privilege of voicing their protests to the styles of input, just as much as non-believers have the privilege of saying, "That doesn't make sense to me."