The Language of Vampyr

reply to post by CitizenJack


CitizenJack, your question is relevant. We have a team quite active in glottochronology. 9,000 years back in time is certainly a great distance into the past for a natural language. We haven't progressed too much in this area. I feel we lost interest in the sense that it was already clear to us that the dogma "the older a language, the more primitive" is simply false. Conversely, the idea that in the future languages will be more complex is also debatable. After all, what does language complexity mean? How do you measure complexity among languages? There is a vast bibliography devoted to this question. We took a different approach. We proposed to study the design of communications means that express a lot, very quick.

Another thing we have problems with is the Swadesh list. Are we sure that what we call fundamental words are the same for different cultures? I'm not sure.

reply to post by Direne


Hello again, Direne.

I was looking at the entry you linked Doodle to and was really intrigued by this:

What do we really know about the African languages spoken in Brazil?

Unfortunately, the answer to this question is almost nothing

I have heard nothing of this before. How long have they been speaking these languages?? That is heavy stuff!

reply to post by Brotherman


I will ask the other members of the team whether I could upload some sound files for you to get an idea how Cassini Diskus works.

reply to post by Brotherman



Thank you brotherman, I find the story of babel an interesting concept. While I agree its just a story, I am open to the concept that every story has a grain of truth . There is a similar story in a sumerian text. So the idea of people "speaking" one language or antilanguage in the past is interesting.

The subtext of the story to me is people can accomplish great this when we all can communicate on a singular level and the greatest way to stop great things from happening is using language as the folks at FL have stated. So if history is cyclical , which I am inclined to believe then is there a way to root out an antilanguage which may have been used in the past if it ever truly was.

reply to post by Frogs


Hello Frogs. We were recruited.

reply to post by CitizenJack


I am of the opinion that our differing languages is the root of most of the problems we face as a society.

Originally posted by Direne
reply to post by abeverage

 

Hello. Those are questions that need a lenghty answer. I will give you some hints, and then we can proceed with the details.

Most of the team at FL do agree with Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar, but modulated with Hallidays' views on the role of sociocultural influence. Our main criticism to Chomsky's theory is that he assumes all brains are the same, something that is not clear to us. Unless we have a clear definition of what means 'a human brain'. For what concerns Hallidays' proposal, I would say that he assumes that sociocultural environment affect equally on all individuals, something which I'm afraid I cannot agree. I feel that it is in the study of child language acquisition that some answers can be found, but I strongly advocate for the study of language in extreme scenarios: coma, altered state of consciousness, stress, schizophrenia, trance, autistic individuals, etc.

To know about matter, you need to apply high energies and actually break it into its essential components; similarly, to really know about language you need to go to extreme situations: you need to 'torture' language itself. It is when you are close to a total collapse of language that language reveals its secrets. That's my view.

Your question "Do you believe society influences language or does language program and influence society?" is quite difficult to answer. It is the so-called Whorfian dilemma. I guess it is a two-way interaction. However, my view is that language is the only way we have to describe reality. As language is part of that reality, you cannot simply rely on language to know reality: your conclusions will be limited by language itself. If you are exposed to aspects of reality that language cannot describe properly, your knowledge about those aspects will be extremely limited.

A good example is quantum gravity (or just quantum mechanics). The math here is more powerful than language itself. You cannot describe properly the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen experiment or the quantum nonlocality. The sentence "The photon is in two places at the same time" means nothing if expressed using natural language. The quantum world does not have "here" and "there". If you were to be reduced to the size of a photon, language would collapse.

Cassini Diskus is an experiment to cope precisely with those scenarios in which language collapses. We noticed that each time you change the scale of a problem, language should change accordingly. Otherwise, it proves useless as a means for communication.

Thank you very much!

I had read The Minimalist Program by Chomsky in college and have always been curious about linguistics, but I wouldn't even be considered a neophyte. I had heard the argument for Universal Grammar and being familiar with Chomsky wanted to know the counterpoint and came across Halliday.

I also have a hobby in studying ancient Greek Mythology, Ancient History/Cultural Anthropology, so it has fascinated me on how people would have to create words to describe the unknown.

You brought up a very interesting point with another member, that of Privacy. And I see the logic in what you are doing. Instead of using Computer algorithm Encryption to wall off your privacy you are creating a Cant (cryptolect) and the information is publicly viewed but still encrypted. I could see this possibly being the future of communication and a logical leap from encrypted messages or mail.

And I would like to add a few more questions if I can. Is Cassini-Diskus comprehensible (could I actually learn it) does it grow and evolve? Also is it encrypted ciphertext requiring a cipher to break the code?

Again thank you! We are curious bunch and appreciate your answers and feedback!

reply to post by JayinAR


I share that opinion as well as stated above in my reply to brotherman.

Direne brought up a really good point about language being a barrier to describe things that are indescribable. And if there was a way to communicate ideas, emotion, and concepts with out a language barrier you eliminate a large percentage of any problem when dealing with new discoveries, cultures and concepts.

I also took note about her explanation about how their work is necessary in the evolution and progress of humans as a whole. Which I agree with but honestly never thought about until very recently. Its funny how everyone is working on the next gizmo, biotech , energy source without to many people addressing the issue the folks at FL are. Its refreshing to know these folks came together for a common cause with out any seeming real incentive except the satisfaction of a greater cause. ATS and FL what a match

reply to post by CitizenJack


I tend to agree very much, I would hope that they have the greatest success in developing this technology, my only concern would be that with every great leap forward in technology humankind has had a way of weaponizing it imagine of law enforcement or the corporate sector gets this they can then just literally read your mind further complicating issues, the advent for misuse when dealing with people with power is there. I fully commend them for keeping it out of the eyes and ears of the conventional internet. This technology would be great higher forms of communication should lead to a new era of understanding and profound learning, it would leave little room for mis interpretation and misunderstanding of one another and may help to qwell some wordly violence issues and bring greater peace to mankind as well. I have been super intrigued with this whole concept I was ignorant about completely 5 days ago or so!

reply to post by Brotherman


You bring up several good points that make me go hmmmm... . This whole concept has my brain buzzing with ideas and question, solutions and problems, and just pure curiosity in the deepest sense of the word. There was a thread awhile ago that I was heavlly involved in and it left me with a sense of wonder and questions, anywho this thread sort of ties in to that thread nicely( I believe) on the psychological aspects of what we are talking on at least.

I'll be sure to discuss this more later and I have loads of question for direne, but its off to work for now. See you guys in the am.

reply to post by Direne


That post summed it up for me.

Might I ask if you have been successful in communicating in this form? I guess I would call it telepathy.

Addition- I have always been a people watcher and find how couples, families, and friends, seem to communicate without speaking. It leaves one feeling like an outsider when you see two friends seemingly give each other a few "looks" and they laugh at each other. It is like they are communicating on a higher level.

I have wandered what makes this bond, and why it only applies to people who are close to one another. Also, what part of the brain does this utilize and can we harness it? Not necessarily questions for you, but more on my thoughts of telepathy.

Originally posted by Direne
reply to post by Doodle19815

 

Couldn't be better to 'read' that neural configuration somehow? And, wouldn't be wonderful if you could read that neural configuration at a distance? Same for images. If your brain takes a particular, measurable, configuration when exposed to an external image, wouldn't be better to learn how to read that configuration in order to 'see' the image your communication partner is seeing mentally?

We feel that's possible. At least, we feel that's where evolution is leading us.

Thank you for your incredible replies, they make a hearty meal for the infophage.

I have one more question, and it has to do with privacy, an issue you have expressed concern over.

Given your statement above in regard to human evolution, it seems to me that spoken language interposes a layer between us that is essential to maintaining our most basic form of privacy- what you propose would make lying, obfuscation and misrepresentation an impossibility.

And perhaps that wouldn't be the worst thing, but...

I assume that evolutionary leap would be technologically facilitated which presents two problems immediately to my mind.

1. It would probably only be available to those who can pay for it.

2. If the resources were available for universal usage, it would erase cultural and even ego distinctions in one fell swoop.

Do you think we're ready for that?

reply to post by Direne



Points taken.

My basic issue of concern when presenting this thread is that when you hope for and work toward a deeper level of ordering that underlies the Logocratic, then that would assume the collapse of everything we currently classify as civilization, as from the onset this has been reliant upon the spoken and written words of authority.

The paradigm that i considered reflected these issues is that sourced in Sumerian mythology, were it was a given that there was immutable underlying Cosmological Ordering, one which contained it's own natural Laws, but that this had been overcome and dominated by Enlil, who was understood to have the written tablet to prove this.

This is what i referenced;

Binsbergen/Wiggermann

The opposition of m e / partsu and n a m t a r / shimtu is not just conceptually implied, but turns out to be made explicit in third millennium cosmogony. Herein a cosmic ocean, N a m m a , produces a proto-universe, Heaven and Earth undivided. In a series of stages, all represented by gods, Heaven and Earth produce the Holy Mound (d u k u g ), which in its turn produces E n l i l , ‘Lord Ether’, who by his very existence separates Heaven and Earth. E n l i l , representing the space between Heaven and Earth, the sphere of human and animal life, organises what he finds by his decisions (n a m t a r / shimtu), and thus puts everything into place: the universe becomes a cosmos. Before being permanently subjected, however, the primordial universe (Heaven and Earth) rebels; its representative, a member of the older generation of gods, E n m e sh a r r a , ‘Lord All M e ’, tries to usurp E n l i l ’s prerogative to n a m t a r / shimtu (i.e. prerogative to make decisions). He is defeated by E n l i l and incarcerated in the netherworld for good. The myth can be read as a theistically-slanted argument on two modes of defining order: an immutable cosmological order (m e / partsu) whose unmistakable champion is E n m e sh a r r a , against a protean, individual-centred, volitional, anthropomorphic order, whose champion is E n l i l .

Every aspect of Sumerian civilization was understood as being governed by a Mes Tablet, the authority of the written word, to return then to a level of being which rendered words superfluous would have been understood as not only dismantling the apparatus of society, but by default also ending the authority of the Divinities in those areas.


Within this mythological framework then my consideration was that such undertaking could be understood as facilitating the return to rule of E n m e sh a r r a from within the quantum netherworld, my question being then do you recognize these concerns as valid...?

reply to post by Eidolon23


You make some really interesting points there, I just wanted to say something in regards to this

2. If the resources were available for universal usage, it would erase cultural and even ego distinctions in one fell swoop.

I agree with this whole heartedly but wouldn't the aspect of individualism remain in tact, I mean the individual can at this point freely communicate his or her ideas completely of their perspective of reality, while cultural ties and ego as they are today will as you pointed out will probably go away but the would the core essentials of what makes a human an individual not only remain but become reinforced by being able to freely communicate without the need of language and cultural barriers?

Great points you made star

Originally posted by Brotherman
reply to post by Eidolon23

 

The core essentials of what makes a human an individual not only remain but become reinforced by being able to freely communicate without the need of language and cultural barriers?

Hey, Brotherman, that's a pretty nifty question you just slung. I guess, off the cuff, I would say that language and cultural institutions provide the scaffolding upon which we grow. How can one have a sense of self if there is no substrate from which to individuate?

Originally posted by Direne
reply to post by Brotherman

 

Hello Brotherman. The best starter in phonosemantics is Margaret Magnus' dissertation. I am sure you can find it in the internet, in PDF format. In case you do not find it, I can make available a copy to you. Additionally, Margaret used to have a website with examples and even some tests for you verify her theory. As far as I understand, she made the observation that words related to some actions (say, to strike) do always contain the same phonemes, even when the words are not etymologicaly related. Mind that this observation are language specific and, some times, language-family specific.

More interesting are her experiments in which she showed her students abstracts images and asked them to give them a name. It came out that most of the students invented words that were quite similar, though the students were working in isolation. The key ideal experiment would be to show someone an object he/she has never seen, and ask him/her to invent a word to name it. If you prove that there is a statistical correlation between the answers of several individuals, in the sense that they invent words using the same phonemes, that would point to the fact that there is a correlation between how humans perceive objects and how they name those objects. The question then is: why is this so?

The bolded part I find very interesting so I've been doing a bit of research to see if I can find some case studies and I came across this link here

Lexical Storage and Retrieval of Prefixed Words


I believe almost everyone has thought about why we give the words we do to describe something but until now I never knew what to call this curiosity.

If the use of the spoken word to communicate with eachother were to collapse as Direne put, do you think we would then have to re-learn as human beings to convey our thoughts and feelings through emotional body language?, makes me think of Interpretive dance.

And thinking about that makes me think about this

Global Consciousness Project

I especially find interesting the mention of "Mass Precognition" and "Retrocausality".

Sorry, my mind is going off on a tangent.

reply to post by Eidolon23


I think that new cultures will form as a natural process but this time around you will pick the culture that best represents your perception of reality I can only speculate but your questions earlier led me to read a little on fundamentals of culture and culture change. I found this document about this and need a little more time to read it and to ponder the implications and learn a little more about culture and culture changes to have a better scope of the possibilities of where we may end up if what we are speculating comes into fruition.

reply to post by Reiken


I had to read this one 2 times and I still don't grasp it but it falls in line with your link and fits very nicely with the topic:


Representation of Lexical Form
Conor T. Mclennan, Paul A. Luce and Jan Charles-Luce
University at Buffalo, The State University of New York
Link to PDF

Maybe Direne can help break down Lexical Form and the experiments at some point it is of high relevence I get the experiments in a narrow sense but not sure how to assimilate it all as the information is overwhelming to a non pyscho linquistics concious scientist esque type guy

reply to post by Direne

We simply consider that speaking out words is the last step in a complex process, a step that can be removed (and should be removed) if we wish to communicate in those situations in which language collapses and is of no use. If the brain adopts a given specific measurable configuration milliseconds before opening your mouth to pronounce a word, why pronouncing a word at all? Couldn't be better to 'read' that neural configuration somehow? And, wouldn't be wonderful if you could read that neural configuration at a distance? Same for images. If your brain takes a particular, measurable, configuration when exposed to an external image, wouldn't be better to learn how to read that configuration in order to 'see' the image your communication partner is seeing mentally? We feel that's possible. At least, we feel that's where evolution is leading us.

This is the first time i have felt it relevant to put myself out on the chopping block per say,but here goes.

I have always felt this deep connection with the world the cosmos and my fellow humans in precisely the way you described seeing images and sounds without a sound received by my ears or an image received with my eyes and this has always led me to believe there is way more to us then what our immediate 5 senses perceive,leading me to come to an understanding that everything is connected via some ethereal,or for lack of words some unseen force tying everything together.

The forgotten language of no language audible or visually that is,spatial communication(Telepathy)=anti-language!

I have been reading and following this thread very closely and from what i have gleaned so far,especially in regard to the above post i do believe i have discovered the true means to which your groups study's are looking to come to,please correct me if i am wrong i can take constructive criticism quite well.

Thank you Direne very kindly for taking time to register here and elaborate your true intent to us all, very altruistic of you i might add!

I do believe i touched on this very idea earlier within this thread as quoted here

So i have a very interesting question in regards to all this language study with regards to sound and sight,if one wanted to transcend barriers of such a limited form of communication to better convey themselves to other sentient beings would they not want to develop Telepathy as a more true method to express there feeling and emotions while literally eliminating or minimizing the chance of having a miss-communication? Also i do believe this would greatly reduce security issues in certain situations,and in some greatly increase it! One other thing of note in regards to Telepathy,Telepathy would eliminate technology and constraints of time and distance in regards to communication,but it is not "monetarily lucrative"to advance the general population this way which is indeed sad!

Originally posted by Ghostcooler
The forgotten language of no language audible or visually that is,spatial communication(Telepathy)=anti-language! I have been reading and following this thread very closely and from what i have gleaned so far,especially in regard to the above post i do believe i have discovered the true means to which your groups study's are looking to come to,please correct me if i am wrong i can take constructive criticism quite well.

This is generally the same conclusion I came to as well.

Bringing me to this *question(s) for Direne*-

Are you or any other members of FL, Telepathic, in any way? To your (FL's) knowledge can it be taught or is there some sort of neuromechanism that can be activated or stimulated that allows us (humans) to then innately preform this type of non-verbal communication?

Many thanks Direne for joining ATS to partake in this amazing thread.

What a lucky bunch we are to have the good fortune of partaking in one of the most insightful and thought provoking threads on ATS (IMO). Double applause to Kantzveldt for bringing this to the table.