The Language of Vampyr

originally posted by: lostgirl
a reply to: Direne

Actually, there is an example of humans teaching other species to communicate...

Koko

If a human was smart enough to teach a gorilla sign language, it seems to me all the more likely that advanced aliens could figure out a way to teach 'some form' of communication to a human.

Koko only does what its trained to do, koko doesn't express its feelings or thoughts to a human the way that koko can express to another chimp. Basically a circus animal because this communication isn’t a 2 way street.

a reply to: The GUT

Your animosity and negativity is already known to us. It is irrelevant to us. You call the discussion about ETI, minimal forms of cognition, the limits of interspecies communication, and the many problems related to human understanding as just something similar to Dianetics and Scientology, while your position about ETI is just repeating Vallee's fairy tales.

Tell us, is that all you can do? Couldn't it be that everything you don't understand (which is quite a lot) always sounds pejorative to you?

If you're afraid of what you don't understand, you're better off sitting in your rocking chair reading Vallee's children's stories. I'll tell you when you can join the party.

a reply to: odiehatzcats

the FL group seems to have vast a history of information .... but you hold it all very close to your self!

Yes. Is that a problem for you?

a reply to: Ksihkehe

I think in the grand scheme of things Koko is close enough to us as to be mostly indistinguishable to higher order intelligence. In our very narrow band of known/presumed intelligence Koko seems different to us, but I question the scale we measure that on. The level of communication we achieved is pretty low.

I totally agree with your words. Maybe the dilemma is that in order to communcate with a superintelligence one needs to get rid of one's biological nature. Maybe superintelligences cannot communicate with biological forms, much as humans cannot communicate with other species.

Or maybe what happens is that, in reality, language is a curse, a virus that infected some life forms to prevent them grasping Reality and keep them confined in their cognitive bubble.

a reply to: Direne

Maybe the dilemma is that in order to communcate with a superintelligence one needs to get rid of one's biological nature.

The opposite would be true too. Were the superintellegence to aquire a biological nature, biologicals and the superintellegence may have the common ground through which to communicate.

Or maybe what happens is that, in reality, language is a curse, a virus that infected some life forms to prevent them grasping Reality and keep them confined in their cognitive bubble.

I seem to remember the little Indian fella Krishnamurti saying something similar.

a reply to: Direne

that maybe the case but I think I can communicate with animals pretty easily, I have some food here in my hand
i wish to communicate that to a peacock on my mums land I shout to it and say come here for food
it comes it sees me holding food , it comes isnt that communication im sharing information that I have food


my dogs are the same they understand me when I speak to them about quite a few things , not always with food
or going for walks but things they do in the house. I want to clean the couch and the dog is sitting on it , I ask it to move it moves.

food seems to be a good way to communicate with animals
the foxes in my garden understand me to a degree when I tell them there is chicken bones ive left in the garden when they see me walking my dogs at the corner they run straight to my back garden and when I get back with the dogs I see them sitting there eating.

So maybe we can communicate with food, sharing food sources seems like a friendly thing to do.
it shows you care about them or are benevolent.

so maybe aliens could make us a feast or some light snacks to get the interspecies talks going.
Although Us being humans , we'd probably be weary of such gifts , we have a history of killing each other at the dinner table.

isnt advanced aliens speaking to us , like the first human speaking to the hungry wolf to say here , take the left overs just dont eat me when I sleep.
and thus the friendship was formed, the friendship that has lasted for millenia
we could be living in symbiosis with aliens quicker than we can say "good boy"

edit to add: in this case , we the humans are the hungry wolf surviving against the chaos of nature, and the aliens are the more advanced species sharing its food and warmth by the fire

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

thats the thing , a machine intelligence wouldnt arise from nothing would it?, it would have to have come from a biological species then went through a period of transformation from its biology to machine like nature.
Just as we see humans slowly entering the transhumanist era.

that was my point earlier as well, dont we all come from the same source?
so why the need for common ground when its already there
same source multiple biological outcomes

a reply to: Direne

maybe its not about communication of complex ideas , but just communication at any level
as long as you can convey the idea that you arent a threat then isnt that all you need
to make friends ?

a reply to: Brotherman

Koko does what it wanted to within its own mind
if it didnt like the situation it was in it surely could have went crazy ripped off a few limbs and got put down

surely koko saw the benefits of complying with the researchers because it was receiving food and sustenance from the humans and also apparently some nipple shows

if that gorilla didnt want to be there it could easily have revolted and killed a few humans but it never did.

So i think communication is possible between species so long as there is a mutual benefit to be gained
a symbiotic relationship.

for humans and animals a lot of the time its just the pleasure of being close to domesticated and wild animals in our gardens and in nature , for the animals its the food we can provide

just got me thinking there about animals of different species communicating with each other , especially for food

I remember watching the family of foxes in my garden in the summer a few years ago
id just came back from the shops and managed to pick up some cheap duck liver patte for my dogs as a wee treat
id got one extra so I decided to leave it outside for the foxes to eat.

I put it in my garden , the magpies came down to investigate , they werent into the duck liver patte but liked the seeds id left for them.

the foxes were out in my neighbours garden I watched from the kitchen window.

The fox was lying down on the grass unaware of the fresh duck liver patte sitting in the garden.
The magpie flies into the fence , caws a couple of times , the fox looks at the magpie then ignores.

The magpie then flies down right next to the fox , sits near it , the fox does nothing ignores the magpie
the magpie caws again , and then repeatedly pecks the foxes tail and caws , the magpie flies back to the fence, looks in the direction of the meat patte , caws again , and then the fox gets up walks through the hedgerow and directly to the duck liver patte.

Now why would the magpie do that? unless it was specifically trying to get the foxes attention for the patte.

or am I just imagining things and it was the smell that wafted over to the fox eventually

a reply to: sapien82

I agree with you that a machine intelligence does not arise from nothing. Clearly, humans will build their robots smarter and smarter, which will perform more and more and more tasks and which will be smarter and smarter and smarter. And the difference between humans and robots will become greater and greater, to the point where, cognitively, the difference between the intelligence of a robot and that of a human will be the same as it is today between a human and a gorilla. Or between a human and a paramecium.

Coexistence is not possible and, in this scenario, humans become irrelevant.

Assuming that this process is universal and has occurred on other planets, the encounter between a human and an ETI will be totally unequal. All communication, under such circumstances, will be impossible.

This does not at all imply that ETI is malevolent. It means that it will probably find humans to be extremely simple biological forms from whose interaction they would derive no benefit. They will most likely ignore humans.

a reply to: NobodySpecial268

"The opposite would be true too. Were the superintellegence to aquire a biological nature, biologicals and the superintellegence may have the common ground through which to communicate."

Yes, I agree with you, And this opens up a disturbing possibility: that humans are, precisely, robotic superintelligences from the past that adopted a biological form. And they did it for good reasons.

In my view the cognitive bubble is not a limitation: it is an innate defense mechanism.

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Brotherman

Koko does what it wanted to within its own mind
if it didnt like the situation it was in it surely could have went crazy ripped off a few limbs and got put down

surely koko saw the benefits of complying with the researchers because it was receiving food and sustenance from the humans and also apparently some nipple shows

if that gorilla didnt want to be there it could easily have revolted and killed a few humans but it never did.

So i think communication is possible between species so long as there is a mutual benefit to be gained
a symbiotic relationship.

for humans and animals a lot of the time its just the pleasure of being close to domesticated and wild animals in our gardens and in nature , for the animals its the food we can provide

Koko hasn't been re-introduced to the wild, there's a reason for that, koko would get murdered by its own kind, the other one is because this poor creature is a research tool.
Communication between species is absolutely possible, my dogs and I communicate all the time outside bull# commands my doggies that aren't science experiments can express so many things in a lot of ways, so do my horde of fish none of them are food related either. I think that sheer presence in inter species conversational etiquate is the beginning.
Domestication, again the doggies I got a wild ass dog that you would believe is a mean junk yard dog, and he is dead to rights but he is my junk yard dog and I never trained or taught him to be better or worse than what he feels, and with his lack of training he is very disciplined because he reads me, if I don't like you neither does he and that goes beyond words and I don't have to strap on a key board for the doggie to push the smush face emoji for him to tell me # this.

a reply to: Direne

surely and advanced ETI would study or record all forms of life
just as humans have recorded all forms of life we find on earth
would an advanced ETI abandon all of the principles that it was derived from ?
such as investigation, exploration ,understanding, communication where relevant
what is the point in an advanced machine intelligence past the point of making things easier for biological life
its a tool right.
when does it cease to become a tool when it becomes intelligent or when it eventually has consciousness and awareness of its own existence.

I mean that we humans are curious by our nature we like to investigate and catalogue and discuss
so wouldnt our advanced machines also carry these same "desires" well programs

so wouldnt an alien intelligence that has created advanced machines also carry these same "desires" / programs
or are these things specific to humans

it appears that consiousness leads us to become scientifically minded by questioning the environment and world around us, looking for feedback and answers to our never ending barrage of the questioning mind.

So wouldnt also a machine intelligence do this?

it seems extremely egotistical haha its funny to think about a machine intelligence being egotistical
well from a human perspective that's how it seems

we are too smart for you so we will just ignore you like ants
well humans dont ignore ants we study them and see how they interact with their environment. Some people even keep ants as pets

i guess maybe thats it , humans want so badly to know if we are the only conscious beings in the universe
we want that human alien interaction , we consider ourselves pretty advanced compared to the rest of the life we know of
yet we are probably amoeba like in comparison to an advanced species that has existed for millions of years
so its our own ego that makes us think we deserve contact

we think we are the dogs bollocks
but in reality we are just the sweat on the dogs bollocks

but still humans never give up easily so we will keep trying
until it happens. Anyway there is infinitely more chance we will kill ourselves before we meet aliens

Yes. Is that a problem for you?

For me personally, no it isn't. I rather enjoy puzzles and one without an image to work from is quite compelling!
I do dislike secret societies and despise those who engage in "book burning" .... but of course, FL is not burning the knowledge, just with holding it .... or more precisely, hiding it in plain sight!
Your website can be viewed and the information read but it is akin to allowing entry to an immense library but within that massive building every page, of every book has been randomly placed on the shelves .... and there is no 'map'!

So no problem for me but for this realm and all within it (man and beast alike) .... yes I think it has and does cause a problem.

So be it .... a riddle within a puzzle it is .... I will still attempt to create the 'image' I need to place the books back together inorder that all can freely read them : )

a reply to: Direne

now thats pretty interesting , do you think we came to earth as a super intelligence
saw that it looked like a decent planet with lots of resources
then set about making our biological forms

now you just made me think what if we have to turn ourselves into machines to travel the vast distances of space, and when we arrive at our desired location we then go through the process of turning ourselves back into biological beings
its how we move from one homeworld to the next or how we seed life from one homeworld to the next.
From one colony to the next

What do you think its a defense mechanism for exactly , defense against what ?

originally posted by: sapien82
a reply to: Direne

surely and advanced ETI would study or record all forms of life
just as humans have recorded all forms of life we find on earth
would an advanced ETI abandon all of the principles that it was derived from ?
such as investigation, exploration ,understanding, communication where relevant
what is the point in an advanced machine intelligence past the point of making things easier for biological life
its a tool right.
when does it cease to become a tool when it becomes intelligent or when it eventually has consciousness and awareness of its own existence.

I mean that we humans are curious by our nature we like to investigate and catalogue and discuss
so wouldnt our advanced machines also carry these same "desires" well programs

so wouldnt an alien intelligence that has created advanced machines also carry these same "desires" / programs
or are these things specific to humans

it appears that consiousness leads us to become scientifically minded by questioning the environment and world around us, looking for feedback and answers to our never ending barrage of the questioning mind.

So wouldnt also a machine intelligence do this?

it seems extremely egotistical haha its funny to think about a machine intelligence being egotistical
well from a human perspective that's how it seems

we are too smart for you so we will just ignore you like ants
well humans dont ignore ants we study them and see how they interact with their environment. Some people even keep ants as pets

i guess maybe thats it , humans want so badly to know if we are the only conscious beings in the universe
we want that human alien interaction , we consider ourselves pretty advanced compared to the rest of the life we know of
yet we are probably amoeba like in comparison to an advanced species that has existed for millions of years
so its our own ego that makes us think we deserve contact

we think we are the dogs bollocks
but in reality we are just the sweat on the dogs bollocks

but still humans never give up easily so we will keep trying
until it happens. Anyway there is infinitely more chance we will kill ourselves before we meet aliens

What if humans are in the middle because we were never born with knowledge we have to seek it out and make poop. Bees don't go to school to learn how to collect pollen and wasps don't apprentice as framers to make paper wasp nests in baroque style octagonal paper chambers for babies and food. LOL which professor teaches the ants to dig and which dali llama instructs the deer to eat the clover and not the night shade bush?
Humans have a very empty mind from birth, our ideas as people are so drastically different in my opinion than anything else on this planet, we have to fill our minds with what we think is technical or important but really its just human stuff. Alien stuff if more organic to something different like the universe and like our bees and ants could have a crazy different series of technology.

yeah cosmic wasps eff me @Brotherman I can only hope and pray there is intergalactic honey badgers and interdimensional cobras

a reply to: Direne

Yes, I agree with you, And this opens up a disturbing possibility: that humans are, precisely, robotic superintelligences from the past that adopted a biological form. And they did it for good reasons.

It was once said to me:

"To be born into a mortal world, without memories, at the mercy of strangers, is considered reckless."

I wonder, may that be the superintellegence's dilemma?

I've just read the latest post on FL
about the metabiological phase and the convergence into machine super intelligence and the quiescence of life

I dont understand why a biological species would transform itself into a machine
just so it can understand everything

humans have a strong desire to play and have fun
we spend more time doing that than we do working and we work so we can play
so why would we abandon those desires when we turn ourselves into machines

at what point do we become irrelevant when we only created super intelligent machines so that we can play more without having to work

really thats all we want to do , be free to create and enjoy life without the hard work or suffering along the way
these are some of the strongest human desires

so why would we abandon that when we create machine super intelligence
dont you want to just kick back acquiesce and party

or is that it, humans have to agree quietly , to acquiesce to the machine super intelligence
and be assimilated like the borg

why when we can have so much fun, it doesnt have to be gain all the knowledge then do nothing
it could be , gain all the knowledge then celebrate that we did it, celebrate until the brain cells are gone haha

speaking of fun

if you could choose one FL blog post to read in full , which one would it be?

I also noticed that they near enough quoted burns

" O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!"

maybe burns is right we need to be able to see ourselves as aliens would see us.