The Language of Vampyr

a reply to: Anaana

I don't think we are as far gone as people believe we are in regards to extinction.

Now don't get me wrong, Direne refereed to being charted as to our threat to extinction, as a percentage lol, i'd bet that is very high 70's at the moment maybe higher.

Not to be Cheesy I have to quote Han Solo "Never tell me the odds" this relates back to emotional reaction and what I asked Direne above. Do I "feel bad" for the native as he looks at the plane? I don't. It's... damage to be mitigated, there is a man in a plane in a slow process of "helping them cope" I don't see right or wrong, I see... the acne, a side effect of puberty. Some "kids" might just kill themselves if it gets bad enough and they feel humiliated right? even slowly, cope badly inject drugs to kill the pain drop out of school.

That's why I ask Direne her opinion of the role of emotion... I see that video and wonder will "he" go into the forest and teach them to read soon? I don't hate the bulldozer I think...the trees are part of us achieving a higher level, I also think "some one better designate sections every X acres for regrowth when this crappy necessity ends" and... "it would be super easy to send a Botanist out to sample everything in front of the bulldozer and it's stupid this isn't done better"

But i'm utterly optimistic in regards to extinction, I think we can reach 99% odds and still pull through, I wonder that our emotional nature will prevent that though, reactionary responses to simple matters. Absolutes... like okay, getting past this stage, we are probably going to kill a lot of stuff, it's messy the industrial age. Do we have the seed banks in place? What has been done in regards to auto shutdown at reactors, how can we fix this if not?

I don't think most of the issues need "sweating" there are negatives and positives the real issue is "reactionary" responses, emotionally.

Let me try to explain better.

Back to the video, while it is Amazing to witness the reaction of the native, I know that somewhere off screen there is a Bulldozer coming, I know the trees harvest is being wasted and species are dying because it's done badly, I know in other places there are radicals who would seek to protect the rainforest, I know... doomsday so to speak can be ushered by the fight that ensues over how to handle it because of the peoples reactions, from being touched by seeing that native to self preservation save the plants to greed no we need reosurces now blargh...

But the 99% I think goes out the window... if your the guy on the plane internally.

He smiled and laughed seeing the natives, he wasn't in anguish about what is next, he enjoyed the ride. Calm, mitigating the damage

a reply to: Direne

Please, pay attention to how people react, look at their eyes, how they move, how they stand petrified.

You're being exaggeratedly one sided.
It's more on curiosity. That's why they move to see a better look.

For a really intense experience, switch off the sound.

Really? ha ha! You're really into the negative side. It's much more intense with sounds on for me.

Being afraid - is always a barrier.

But I get your point, fear!

a reply to: joshint

I don't know, shock is a really weird thing.

I had never conceived of it until my mother died, and I remember saying at the funeral aloud when someone asked me how I was feeling and I replied "I don't know i'm kind of without feeling, kind of laughing seeing everyone again, it feels weird" and my Uncle muttered under his breath "he's in shock" A similar thing happened after my ex's C section which I was in the room for the whole thing. I was fine for the 3-4 hrs through the whole thing and when I went home for a bit I grabbed a little something to smoke but before I could, I slid down the wall and sat there for 3 hrs not getting up... shock

Sooooo... what are they feeling? Probably wasn't the very first time they have seen it... hrs later? Different for everybody I would guess, but i'd bet "the shock" in culture shock is very real.

a reply to: criticalhit

They're more in awe than shocked.

a reply to: joshint

What i'd offer is Tomato, Tomaaato

It's kind of funny that you'd return and offer "Awe" remember the 1st Gulf War "Shock and Awe" were the words used to describe what the US was about to do to Iraq, or in short, "Destroy them so bad they never recover" "Shock and Awe" I see "Shock" you saw "Awe" the language doesn't lie, in the end... they are screwed.

It has "Impact" it might as well be physical... the damage?

We have all been through it... recently and ongoing.

"The War on Drugs" there is a culture shock we are living through, we learned as a society "drugs" can change our thoughts our bodies many things, it's a huge power actually to have gained.

The first adjective was "Fear" Then I used "Shock" then You "Awe" that's the Most of it, it affects everybody differently, there are ripples and they break the surface of the pond you live in, reality gets shattered by it...

Here we are 30 years later post start of the War on Drugs, many people had fear, some would say we are in a "police state" ridiculous amounts of money spent and wasted, many people addicts and lives ruined, many others enhanced and lives saved.... but the entire gene pool forever changed, parents threw out their children, 30 Million people went to Jail countless thousands have died, the education system went to crap, whole nations became narco economies.

What did the first HS kid in the Fifties think when someone showed him a joint, what was the look on his face?

Could have been anything... but that ripple, everything changed

In another 30 years text books might say "the war on drugs began the collapse of the American Empire"

So call it whatever... it's the mover

@ Direne

Here as the expert working on language development for contact... I'd Imagine this topic comes up and is part of the equation so to speak, can the language stop the monster of culture shock? Or whatever better word anyone has devised? Because it will be "frightening" and "Amazing" and "Awesome" and "Shocking" and... all at once and different for everyone without it?

OK Direne,

I see you uploaded 3 videos 3 days ago:

First this one:



The video shows something like a structure.

So, what was the opportunity present here?

Was that captured by a satellite?

And these two videos:




Are they some kind of ET Messages acquired by SETI perhaps?

Have you decoded the message?

Care to elaborate?

Thank you.

a reply to: criticalhit

is any one out there via intent dealing with the media to create such exposure, alien movies etc. Is that any part of your work with languages?

Conditioning is an essential part of Contact Theory, provided your contact is based on ethical grounds in the sense you are not going to invade or destroy the civilization you wish to enter into contact. I am here assuming two civilizations that, bona fide, wish to enter into contact. However, because one of the partners is more advanced than the other, and because their biology is so radically different, conditioning is necessary. If the movies
want to be used as a mass conditioning means, they should start depicting "aliens" as having a totally different biology. Humanizing their aspect does not help. In my view, it is better to watch documentaries about spiders, viruses, and abyssal life forms in closeup if you wish conditioning to actually work.

Contempt is a major obstacle in any contact between two different species.

Also what do you think of "emotion" you refer to her compassion as important, the best part. but is the pain healthy? Should it be experienced over and over

That a visiting civilization is more advance technologically than you does not turn them automagically into experts in your emotions. You can learn a lot about the genome of a wasp, about its physiology, its bio-molecular composition, its behavior, and still know nothing about its feelings and emotions. To feel what a wasp feels you'd need to be a wasp yourself. There is no other way. The fact you cannot replicate a wasp, as you cannot replicate its emotions and feelings, means you should not ever try to destroy it. You shouldn't destroy what you cannot create, and even if you could create it, compassion is there for you to not to do it.

I guess the question is where do you stand on the Spock vs Captain Kirk views of sentience?

Both, criticalhit. Spockish, when analyzing facts, Kirkish when understanding those facts. Spockish, when the business is about data gathering; Kirkish when the task is taking decisions based on those facts. Emotions are not cognitive and volitional states, but they play an important role in the decision making process. Not all decisions are taken from a logical point of view or after a thorough analysis of facts. To love is not to choose. When you deal with life forms, emotional involvement is expected, unless you belong to a civilization which systematically despises and scorns others.

a reply to: Anaana

Domesticated trees don't talk the language that the Amerindians talk and the pesticides and other chemicals that are no doubt introduced shut down their other lines of communication with their ecosystem, which will eventually lead to the collapse of that ecosystem as it has everywhere else it has touched.

Amerindians were also "aliens" at some point of their past history. Actually, they were invaders. Brutal ones, by the way. At some point in the past they also created a vast civilization, and even in Amazonia you are now discovering big cities, sadly this is due to the deforestation practices being carried out there. This tells you that a potential contact with an advanced civilization from another stellar system will also unveil to you the fact that its past
history is also full of wars, crimes, and destruction. The question is whether a given civilization has learned to cope with those events, and whether they have integrated into their worldview their own past. A civilization that has not overcome that stage should not attempt contact. Unless you wish to enter into trading agreements, exploitation of local resources, subjugation, war, and destruction. Cooperation is always among equals, otherwise it soon becomes
dependency and colonization.


a reply to: lostgirl

But the same video illustrates my point - that humanity deserves the intervention of anyone 'out there' with the means to save this world...

A civilization must learn to save itself before attempting to save others. Much like an overprotective mother spoils her children, a civilization should certainly help another, but "over-helping" can be lethal. You can certainly give advise, but lending practical help can turn against the helped ones. Helping a whale stranded on land and helping a zebra about to be killed by a lioness is not the same. In the second case your help might turn into a lioness and three cubs starving and dying. Assessing the consequences of your decisions is very difficult. There is no standard procedure.


a reply to: joshint


I didn't upload those videos. Enlydd did. They were not uploaded 3 days ago. They were uploaded on April, 2, two months ago. I cannot comment on Cassini Diskus. However, the id belongs to LROC Observation M162350671L, Original product, nacl000649b4. Product version, v1.8. Mission phase name, SCIENCE MISSION. Rationale desc, TARGET OF OPPORTUNITY. I would need the sanitized copy of that product to give you my opinion on it.

Our original entry is here:

Target of Opportunity

About the other videos, we do not work with SETI, therefore they are not SETI products. I cannot comment on them either.

Caves

I own a domain on the subject i've been too lazy to elaborate on.

I believe life on Mars remains underground. There is warmth and pressure once you get deep enough, At depth physics tells me the ice melts and rivers/streams flow downward.

Caves on Mars, if Earth was doomed and all we had was "life boat" level (local planet) capable craft with limited supplies to set up shop, that's what I would aim for.

*Target of Opportunity

a reply to: Direne

Perhaps anyone else on the group could comment on it.

a reply to: Direne

You're general points here are quite correct, we need to put our own house in order before there will be any positive contact with off world cultures or boldly going here there and everywhere, also your general observations on human behaviour do indicate what would be intolerable.

Given that i believe in some form of beneficial contact in the ancient past understanding what was involved there is what we should be looking to emulate and the religious system that sources back to this from those who claimed descent , so from that perspective we would also need religious consensus, beliefs such as atheism will need to be eradicated as it holds back our future expansion and development, also beliefs that saw such contact as evil and that this is a local planet for local people.

The flip side of caring is always conflict, were there is is conflict one can either succumb into compliance or extinction, contain and manage it, or totally eradicate. An example of containing potential conflict is reducing what people care about, for example their family, society,religious tradition, ethnic background, that's the traditional Marxist perspective, leave them nothing to care about and they are easily controlled.

Of course it is also suggested that we should extend our caring to embrace all of humanity and every living creature, which is fine in principle, but problematic when among them there are those who only care for themselves or believe in and follow detrimental ideology, directly impacting in a negative way things one cares for a great deal, caring always comes back to the negation of threat.

So when it comes down to it then the more that one cares then the more that must die...

a reply to: Direne

Yeah, I got started with bugs very young. Carpenter Ants, huge colony in the alley behind my building, every summer i'd experiment with them, obstacles in their paths, took out library books, learned about Pheromones started experimenting with smells then got a chemistry set to take that further, moved on to seeing if I could trigger "wars" between them and other insect colonies.

I was only 8 at the time, but I was into the Von Dainiken stuff, had seen the Hellstrom chronicles etc etc (pre internet days) my fascination was if "I could stop or manipulate them" without "brute force or poison, in essence change their communication, the endless army never tiring, never wavering.

I knew of all the stories of Roswell, area 51 too, Phil Schneider and his "underground discoveries" I had started wondering if the "Grey's" were actually "from here" Insects, living underground, very small. I couldn't help but wonder that Roswell happened a year after we tested the A bomb in the area and it seemed impractical to me that it was seen from far away and it began to make sense in my head that perhaps if anything actually happened, it came up from underground, that maybe there was a hive intelligence living right alongside us that they were really very small and not noticeable and if people saw large bodies these could be projections induced by pheromones or just genetic creations but the eyes to me always looked insect like...

So I took it upon myself to figure out how to communicate with insects, mainly the "go away" signal was what I was looking for, it's nice to hear btw I was on the right path, I smiled when I read that earlier in the thread...

(my mom called me "an interesting child" lol)

Still fascinated by the underground, gosh i'd love to know if that is what the Mars images are in regards to... it strikes me as odd that most life would manage to survive to a point of sentience on the surface or remain that way very long given all the smash bang boom, solar fire maybe even discovery by "whatever". Many interesting spots out here on the res, water moving along under the deserts deep down openings from the Grand Canyon under wraps. You once mentioned Utah, Arizona and New mexico as spots of activity and if you look at those "spots" they surround the Cocconino aquifer. Given the nature of the rock I assume there is a large set of caverns, maybe it's navigable underground.

a reply to: criticalhit

I'm not for dwelling on the dark side myself. I am a happy, extremely smiley person, I like to leave every person that I encounter, in person, with a smile on their face. I can always find a bright side even if it requires a little gallows humour to drag it out. I am a realistic idealist. I am raising a child, I need to know about the world that he is growing up in so that I can prepare him for the difficult choices that his generation, more so than my own, is going to face. I want to be able to look him in the eye from my death bed and know that I never did less than my best. I don't want my son to go to war in order to put more food on his plate and less on others. I don't want my son to kill mothers and their children. I don't want him to have to kill anyone, ever. I don't want anyone to be forced into killing him either.

So, I enjoy every single moment of every single day. I laugh as much as I can, I stop to smell the flowers or to watch the butterflies, but we have a steep climb if we are going to get out of the # heap that we are in. The penny is going to drop soon, and our leaders are going to have to decide whether to carry on as we are, which takes us to war as a means of "natural" selection, or rather survival of the least fittest, and a simple policy of mass slaughter until the last nation is standing, that's really only slowing the overall process down, because there is no actual change or deviation involved, only reductionism.

If we stop, take a good hard long look at ourselves and go back to the modelling that was done in the 1970s in terms of sustainability, update it, and get our arses in gear, we can totally turn this around. I am filled with hope, and I know that there are thousands of initiatives in place actively driving sustainable futures forward. The world is filled with magnificent, passionate people who care and who work themselves into the ground helping others. The key obstacles however are political systems based on elections driven by cult of personality and financial backing which leads to spineless governance unwilling to make hard decisions for fear of offending their investors or damaging their popularity.

Those hard decisions are being put off, and here in the UK, with the arrival of the Tory/Liberal coalition, funding for sustainability and as importantly biodiversity was cut to next to nothing. Independent and publically funded bodies, NGOs etc are still ploughing on, but all funding for research in bio-chemical sciences is focused on biofuels, admittedly still a huge priorty, but research needs to be invested in stabilising ecosystems and there are better solutions to collapsing agricultural ecosystems than Monsanto, but that is the only one being pushed to the poorest nations as well as anyone else who'll take it.

What our presence in the biosphere represents to the overall health of the biosphere can be equated to cancer, or the very least a viral phage. We know from our own DNA that viruses can be successfully integrated into a living system and become beneficial to the whole organism. That is our task. In my opinion.

I most definately believe that we can avoid going extinct and adapt to the changes and challenges that we face. I am and have been in the ways that I can, I see lots of people doing the same, but it is not enough yet.

a reply to: Direne

Amerindians were also "aliens" at some point of their past history. Actually, they were invaders. Brutal ones, by the way. At some point in the past they also created a vast civilization, and even in Amazonia you are now discovering big cities, sadly this is due to the deforestation practices being carried out there. This tells you that a potential contact with an advanced civilization from another stellar system will also unveil to you the fact that its past
history is also full of wars, crimes, and destruction. The question is whether a given civilization has learned to cope with those events, and whether they have integrated into their worldview their own past. A civilization that has not overcome that stage should not attempt contact. Unless you wish to enter into trading agreements, exploitation of local resources, subjugation, war, and destruction. Cooperation is always among equals, otherwise it soon becomes
dependency and colonization.

Amerindians were invaders, then they were invadees, then invaders again, and so we continue. Welcome to Anatomically Modern Man, we're nothing if not repetitive. I would vote against anyone saving us, we don't deserve it.

I believe it has been said that God helps those that help themselves, so I don't expect any help from Them either.

If it was an option I'd put a word in for the kids though, grown ups have to face consequences, that's what being a grown up is about, we have to take responsibility or accept that we need a nanny state to babysit for us.

You're not going to get much opposition from me, I know where we've been and how we got here, I've done my homework, I never stop doing my homework and there is very little that escapes me. War. I'm against it. In case you were wondering. It is wholly unnecessary and based entirely, as you say, on economic dominion and exploitation. The Mayan civilisation (post 2000BC), and the Jiroft, had ritual geomancy and developed distance trade based on mining and mineral extraction. The mining nor the trade was a problem it was those who stuck a stick in the ground and staked their claim on that land and started claiming a sole right to access. Monopoly of shared natural resources is what #s things up, as is taking more than is needed in order to satisfy wants particularly when some aren't getting what they need to survive. Or of destabilising governments in order to create civil wars in order to drive up the prices of those resources. Or putting in a puppet government so that you can both screw the people who have to still eek out a living long after the resources have been sucked dry, and the land left barren and toxic, and the puppet left to fend for themselves against the baying mob. It truly is a wonderful world though, despite all that, but far too many are suffering to support the Western way of life, and that Western Way of Life is a plague that is spreading. As I said, no illusion, but still, reasonably chirpy.

So, no, under the terms that you describe, I don't think we are ready.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
So when it comes down to it then the more that one cares then the more that must die...

I can't tell, are you saying that you care so much that you are willing to give your life so that others might live, or are you saying you are willing to kill others so that you might live?

You know that people don't murder themselves don't you? And that taking a life causes psychological damage even if that person thought the killing just? Unless you're personally volunteering to do that work then I'd engage your brain before making such a suggestion. It is also worth considering how much of guarantee that you have that your name won't be on the list of useless eaters, how useful are you?

a reply to: joshint

You first. I, for one…..wink, wink, am not showing you what I am, till you show me yours.


What's yours?
edit on 31-5-2015 by joshint because: wink wink pakang hinampaka ka. haha

Just trying to lighten up a little, joshint. As in, "you show me yours, I'll show you mine." I was being rather confrontational with Direne, there, and wished to add some humor to lessen the harshness, that's all.
Thanks for asking to help me out, though…..

As for this from Direne:

a reply to: tetra50

You are right, it is tiresome. You are wrong: you are already showing me whom you are. Actually, I am not interested in whether you believe in the existence of civilizations in other stellar systems and what you think of them. I think it is more helpful to know what you think about your own civilization. Do you care for others here? Is not arrogance from your side assuming you do? Tell me.

I am showing you some of myself, here, you are correct. In fact, it has been suggested that this whole thread, and FL, may be some kind of "social experiment." However, you wouldn't ask those questions of me if you knew me in RL. Arrogance assuming I do? You know nothing of the sacrifices I've made in my life….

I am what's known as an empath. I feel the pain of others just as Lostgirl describes. And as a new poster just said, I, too, have read much science fiction. I am a disabled person, and I have little to no contact, socially, or with others. I can't navigate that social scene very well anymore. I am also a UFO experiencer, myself. If you knew me through my posts, here, then you wouldn't bother to ask me such questions. So, it seems you know very little about me. And certainly, a public forum isn't that great a place to truly judge what other's are made of.

I was replying to your language, and your habit of speaking to us, using "you," implying that you are something separate from our civilization, just observing it, and I wished to know what you consider, then, yourself to be? A different kind of life form than human?
tetra

a reply to: Anaana

Agreed... not so sure about my demeanor lol , I can be pretty intense in regards to my work lately as I am becoming aware of it's importance.

But yeah, particularly since the "pivot to Asia" nonsense I am highly concerned for my soon to be 16 year old. I have had damage to my life from American "fundamentalist" sort of beliefs as well as others. I do not see any allowance for further escalation of energy dominance conflicts not for participation of me and mine personally.

I'm not however your typical environmentalist, although I agree with it's importance I feel particularly state side like always the views are Black and White, Luddite like conservation on one end and extremist drill baby drill on the other. I'm a Terra-former at heart, I think we can harvest and regrow rainforests, control the climate (to a degree) save species in dignified happy manners. I kind of marvel at a world in 2015 that... has no vertical food Towers, in which solar isn't mandated on homes, in which all highways and buildings aren't green, in which the Tesla is not a govt funded car project etc etc at al...

And of course the Two are One topic... War with China over pockets of Gas we don't need vs a massive solar array across the top if the grid was redone in Graphene wires would power the whole of North America, it would work out financially better from a public POV as well, i've done the numbers, it's better for the economy, it's existing technology not "future"

Just saying, we are absurd.

(that can be an addition to the what do you think of your society question, simple "we are absurd")

a reply to: Anaana

I write from a religious perspective so they must die in order to be born again, the doctrine of the Ninja Midwife were you end up with the same number of people as when you started, so no actual killing considered, it's useful but not for those that die.

originally posted by: Kantzveldt
a reply to: Anaana

I write from a religious perspective so they must die in order to be born again, the doctrine of the Ninja Midwife were you end up with the same number of people as when you started, so no actual killing considered, it's useful but not for those that die.

If only….
I have come to realize that some people, in certain situations, perhaps, need killing……
Understand, I hate that…..

but nevertheless it's true.

"Thou Shalt Not Kill…."
I always believed in that. LIke you wouldn't believe, believed in that. But there unfortunately is a place/time where this is necessarey for survival.

Interesting. where this thread has gone. Anaana: I understand completely what you are saying about the world you are raising a child in, and wish you Godspeed and good luck. For myself, as a mother of a 25 yr. old, I am very afraid for her, and so happy she is not younger in today's world. I'd have a very hard time with that.
tetra

a reply to: tetra50

The complexity of a system is directly correlated with the complexity of the task involved. An individual can solve a set of problems which have a specific level of complexity (for instance, gathering berries or hunting a rabbit to feed himself). When the tasks to be accomplish are of a higher order of complexity (for instance, to crop a field, or to hunt a buffalo), the system must evolve to a higher order of complexity, too (now you need a group of individuals, sharing a code, and organized in a more complex way).

When tasks to be accomplished are increasingly more complex, the system gets more complex in turn. At the organizational level, you need to set up rules and to confer a structure to the system, introducing areas of specialization for groups of individuals, new rules, a new language, and probably new belief-systems. To maintain those complex systems you need a complex organization, and when the task to accomplish amount to that of maintaining a sustainable exploitation of an entire planet, you'll need a totally different structure, a globalized one, which requires a global code, global mechanisms of control (in the positive sense).

From gatherers to hunters, from city-states to nations, from nations to coalitions of nations, the level of complexity increases. When your environment extends beyond your planet to cover the entire planetary system, you need to organize in a completely new way. Stellar engineering, that is, the building of infrastructures of formidable size to exploit the resources of an entire stellar system, ultimately require not just the coordinated effort of an entire planet, but the coordinated effort of several planetary civilizations.

Once you reach that level, you realize the limits of growth in a finite system: resources are never infinite. They are ultimately totally depleted, and no matter how complex your coalition of civilizations is, you'll face extinction. Even if you could reach the ultimate level of complexity, allowing you to exploit the resources of the entire Universe, the Universe is finite, too. No escape?

An individual is more complex than the society she belongs to. One grass blade is more complex than a field. Civilizations are made of individuals, and individuals do not live up with just water, food, energy, or time. We all require two things you won't find out there: dreams, and freedom. If to fully exploit a Universe, a galaxy, a stellar system, or a planet, you need to give away your dreams and freedom, what's left in the end? A fattened-up pig. Millions of them. Building Dyson spheres and queltrons. That's what's left.

However, those that manage to overcome their innate tendencies toward continuous material growth and replace them with non-material goals will be the only ones to survive that final fate. The net result is this: your entire galaxy will become populated by stable, highly ethical and spiritual civilizations.

Like yours. I do believe in this. Firmly.

a reply to: Direne

Hey Direne:
Yes I believe in the same, which is saying a lot, for we have to share these ethics, don't we?

However, those that manage to overcome their innate tendencies toward continuous material growth and replace them with non-material goals will be the only ones to survive that final fate. The net result is this: your entire galaxy will become populated by stable, highly ethical and spiritual civilizations.

However, these are worrds. There are situation which exist, in a sick society, that has grown in the wrong direction….you have spoken of this via pornography, and its use in triggering….'

Some things/people have gone too far in a direction that not only is detrimental to the society as a whole, but is detrimental to those they control……

Hate to say that, but have experienced it. It is harmful to the growth of society , and must be stopped. We cam talk all day but the sharing of these ethics is all important. Ethics and compassion…….
tetra