Did Jews or other Semites jump-start ancient Greek civilization?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

Basically the mythology and the stars were directly interrelated.

I never understood why ancient people would bother to stay up at night, to arbitrarily connect some 'spots' with each other, to call them a "constellation", and then somehow come up with a connection between their lines in the night sky and what happens here on earth. I'd be interested if you could point me to a thread about that.

What do the stars say about why the Greeks adopted a foreign alphabet, and why they adopted mythology that considered the number 12 as essential as did the Old Testament, and why they used the same tripartite as several other cultures?

First and foremost the seasons of the year and the harvest cycles appear to be the most important.
Than we have navigation.

For example Polynesian cultures, they essentially traveled the entire Pacific on rafts. I was curious about this so I looked into it and it is indeed true they used the stars to navigate with accuracy, and for food they caught sea creatures. For water they collected rain or obtained it from other means, such as the livers(?) of various fish etc.

If you know the stars you won't "get lost" in any matters so to speak. "The stars guide us", etc.
From agriculture to travel to even the most basic aspects of life like marriage, morality/ethics, good common sense, etc.

12 months / hours / signs etc
The Sumerians used the base 60 mathematical system of which 12 is 1/5th of 60.
60 minutes, seconds etc. 360 degrees to a circle.
The 365 days of the year concept is based on this.

The Babylonian number system had a base of sixty, inherited from the Sumerian and Akkadian civilizations, and possibly motivated by the large number of divisors which 60 has. The sexagesimal measurement of time and of geometric angles is a legacy of the Babylonian system.

60 number wiki

Babylonian Number System

As you can see pretty much everything we consider 'civilization' is derived from knowledge of the stars and developing knowledge systems to work in tandem with them.

In a way, constellations are like writing that lasts forever without needing paper or stone. All people need to know are stories and how to recognize the signs in the sky and how the references apply.

So in a way, we could consider the stars and the signs in them created by the minds of man, as the first system of writing and reading, of which the rest derive from.

Originally posted by Harte

Sorry, I assumed you knew what a zodiac was.

Zodiac = Circle of Living Creatures

Also in terms of the stars Zodiac = a. Astronomy A band of the celestial sphere extending about 8° to either side of the ecliptic that represents the path of the principal planets, the moon, and the sun.

Astrology = (1) Originally, the practical application of astronomy to human uses.

I was using those broad definitions sorry if you misunderstood.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

First and foremost the seasons of the year and the harvest cycles appear to be the most important. Polynesian cultures, they essentially traveled the entire Pacific on rafts.

Thanks for your post, but sorry I have to disagree. The stars do not determine the harvest cycles, the sun does. But they did not even make the calendar based on the sun. And the calendar wass based on a 'disk' in the night sky, the moon.

To put it bluntly, that which determines the seasons - the sun - is completely ignored. But there is a tremendous effort on the stars. Why?

We were not talking about the Polynesians. But even they didn't need "Constellations". A North-Star would have been plenty. They certainly didn't need to draw animals arbitrarily around them, nor make arbitrary stories about their drawings.

So what is it, that caused the people thousands of years ago, when they hardly had a system to write and to count, to be intimately connected to the stars?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
The stars do not determine the harvest cycles, the sun does. But they did not even make the calendar based on the sun. And the calendar wass based on a 'disk' in the night sky, the moon.

The Hebrew, Buddhist, Hindu, Burmese, Bengali, and Tibetan calendars, as well as the traditional Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Mongolian and Korean calendars, plus the ancient Hellenic, Coligny, and Babylonian calendars are all lunisolar.

A lunisolar calendar is a calendar in many cultures whose date indicates both the moon phase and the time of the solar year. If the solar year is defined as a tropical year, then a lunisolar calendar will give an indication of the season; if it is taken as a sidereal year, then the calendar will predict the constellation near which the full moon may occur. Usually there is an additional requirement that the year have a whole number of months, in which case most years have 12 months but every second or third year has 13.

Lunisolar Calendar

Oh yeah and :

Polynesian navigation is a system of navigation used by Polynesians to make long voyages across thousands of miles of open ocean. Navigators travel to small inhabited islands using only their own senses and knowledge passed by oral tradition from navigator to apprentice, often in the form of song. In order to locate directions at various times of day and year, Polynesian navigators memorize important facts: the motion of specific stars, so where they would rise and set on the horizon of the ocean; weather and the seasons of travel; wildlife species (which gather at particular positions); the direction, size and, speed of ocean waves; colors of the sea and sky, especially how clouds would cluster at the locations of some islands; and angles for approaching harbours.

The Polynesian people used to utilize some constellations which helped them navigating through the Pacific Ocean. The mythology behind these constellations are majorly linked with the sea as well.

Polynesian Navigation
Archaeoastronomy

Instead astronomical observations are used in combination with ecological signs, such as bird migrations to determine the seasons.

So "soothsaying" or "reading the signs" was a primary occupation of the sorts.
Also remember a lot of these civilizations used multiple calendars simultaneously.

About the Mayans:

There was not one single calendrical system, they employed different calendars for different uses. They also used a system that had 365 days in a year, almost exactly the same as the world now follows, and like ours, their calendar got out of step every four years and had to be corrected.

Babylonians and Mayans compared

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

ancient Hellenic, Coligny, and Babylonian calendars are all lunisolar.

"Lunisolar" is a term specifically made to DISinform, with 'solar' included to fool the people. It requires a "leap-month" without which it is NOT solar, neither did the Greek have that at the time. Plus, even with the "leap-month", the year will not start at the beginning of the solar year and therefore does not help identify the seasons.

The Greeks, as early as the time of Homer, appear to have been perfectly familiar with the division of the year into the twelve lunar months but no intercalary month Embolimos or day is then mentioned.

Also, there were many different local calendars - and yet they develop a complicated system of Constellations with animal figures attached and detailed mythologies. Again I ask why?
en.wikipedia.org...

You did not answer my question, what is it, that caused the Greek people thousands of years ago, when they hardly had a system to write and to count, to be intimately connected to the stars?

Originally posted by raifordko

Originally posted by ElohimJD

Originally posted by johncarter

Man....whats next the danites emigrated to old america and established a small kingdom of god on manhattan? LOLOL..."Makes voice like Marlon Brando in Apocalypse now"; The horror, the horror...

edit on 11-7-2013 by johncarter because: (no reason given)

I found this humorous as well.

There is strong ancient evidence in Ireland indicating the Irish "Tuatha de Danaan" are the Israelite "Tribe of Dan" as well.

Danites were seamen, and masters of ocean sailing. Believe what you want, but the documents exist and were recorded by historians, not made up my posters on ATS.

God Bless,

What's funny is the Irish have a tale older than the 300 warriors of Sparta, which also includes 300 warriors of the Fir Bolg fighting the invading army of the Tuatha de Danaan, and they fought so viciously and valiantly that the Sons of Danu spared their lives and gave them a quarter of Ireland. Another similarity, is that while there were 300 Fir Bolg warriors, there was also an undetermined number of Fomorian warriors who assisted in the defense and at least two are named in the accounts. Irish mythology has long been a passion of mine

And Tuatha de Danaan actually means Sons of Danu, or Sons of Dan. Modern scholars think this is a link to Celtic deities though as Danu is a godess in both Asian, Greek and Celtic mythology. (P.S. Dan is a woman, not a man, and the Tribe of Dan in the bible is most definitely speaking of a man as the forefather as he was the SON of Jacob.)

You'll find the left red hand symbol interresting as well then , as an Irish Historical scholar.

The story of the sons of Judah. Zarah and Pharez.

Zarah and Pharez were twins both male. Zarah's hand came out first and thus the midwife placed a red ribbon around his left wrist to indicate he is the first born son of Judah. Then Zarah's hand withdrew and Pharez was birthed first, then later Zarah.

This created a feud among the Judites as to which son was the rightful heir, those who believed it was Zarah adopted the red left hand as the symbol of their alligence.

Years later during the prophet Jerimiah's commision (called Jermoi in ancient Irish stories) he transported the daughters of Zedikiah with Jacob's pillar stone (called the stone of destiny today) to Ireland and because those daughters were decendents of Zarah, the red hand flag came with them.

Fascinating stories, I wonder if they are true or not sometimes.

God Bless,

Originally posted by JilianK

Originally posted by Crakeur
and, yet, the Last Supper is widely believed to have been a Passover Seder
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
Seems to me he was not just jewish, he was a practicing jew.

So then explain to me, how is it I am Christian and not Jewish

how is it this "man" created so many Christians, and still only few million 10-13 Jews are on Earth

If he was practicing Judaism, why isn't half the world Jewish then. Why are Jews still stuck in the old testament.

Bottom line is, when a person of power wields that power to have masses follow.

Why didn't Jesus just throw everybody onto Judaism bus.

God's truth and His ways are what Jesus Christ lived. No religion under the control (governed) of mankind live according to God's truth or ways.

Jesus Christ kept the laws of God perfectly.

He kept a 7th day Sabbath, He ate only clean meats, He kept the annual Holy Days, He kept the yearly Passover in remembrance of the need for the Passover sacrifice from God... then He BECAME the Passover sacrifice for all mankind on the day of Passover, and changed the observance of Passover from physical (sedar) to spiritual (eucharist).

"do this in remembrance of me"

These physical truths the jews try to keep, but they fail because they rejected the very Passover "lamb" needed for the removal of sins; jews reject Jesus Christ as their Passover therefore they do not understand the spiritual application to the physical law given to Israel.

Do not confuse keeping God's laws in spirit and in truth as Jesus Christ did with being a practising "jew" religiously speaking. Even though they observed the same days, doesn't mean they are observed in the same manner and for the same purpose.

God Bless,

Originally posted by ElohimJD

 

God's truth and His ways
Jesus Christ kept the laws of God perfectly.
He kept a 7th day Sabbath,
These physical truths the jews try to keep,
Do not confuse keeping God's laws

Why are you preaching your religion in an 'Ancient Civilizations' forum?
Go do that in the 'Weaponry'.

"Did Jews or other Semites jump-start ancient Greek civilization?" I bet the Jews would like you to think so.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

Also remember a lot of these civilizations used multiple calendars simultaneously.

Since you are an expert on ancient astrology, please answer my question, what is it, that caused the Greek people thousands of years ago, when they hardly had a system to write and to count, to be intimately connected to the stars?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

Also remember a lot of these civilizations used multiple calendars simultaneously.

Since you are an expert on ancient astrology, please answer my question, what is it, that caused the Greek people thousands of years ago, when they hardly had a system to write and to count, to be intimately connected to the stars?

To make a pun on "Fiddler on the Roof" as well as to state the factual answer to your question, it was "Tradition!" LOL

Far, far earlier cultures were fixated on the stars than the Greeks,

The Greek method of astrology, including the zodiac almost exactly as we know it today, dates to Sumer.

That's 5 or 6 thousand BC.

The why of it is not all that hard to understand. They didn't have television.

Harte

reply to post by Harte


Technical nit pick Harte the Sumerian civilization is thought to have begun circa 4,000-3,800 BC so did you mean to say BCE? Before that you have the Ubaidians but they too were probably staring at the stars too.

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Harte

 

Technical nit pick Harte the Sumerian civilization is thought to have begun circa 4,000-3,800 BC so did you mean to say BCE? Before that you have the Ubaidians but they too were probably staring at the stars too.

You meant to ask if I meant YBP, not BCE, right?

Maybe I misremember, but did the Ubaidians not have astrological properties regarding their temples?

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by Harte

 

Technical nit pick Harte the Sumerian civilization is thought to have begun circa 4,000-3,800 BC so did you mean to say BCE? Before that you have the Ubaidians but they too were probably staring at the stars too.

You meant to ask if I meant YBP, not BCE, right?

Maybe I misremember, but did the Ubaidians not have astrological properties regarding their temples?

Harte

edit on 7/23/2013 by Harte because: (no reason given)

oops...Well dang BP actually, too late.... need to sleep, as to your question....hmmmmm I don't recall. Will look up tomorrow

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


The Greek empire came into power (particularly the region around Athens) due to the overwhelming demand of their number one export.

Olives and Olive Oil.

Their language was spread across the region as the language of business for hundreds of years, much like today's language of business is English.

Originally posted by Evil_Santa
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

The Greek empire came into power (particularly the region around Athens) due to the overwhelming demand of their number one export.

Olives and Olive Oil.

Their language was spread across the region as the language of business for hundreds of years, much like today's language of business is English.

I would suggest that the silver mines of Laurium help to create the basis for that empire.

Originally posted by Harte

 

what is it, that caused ... people thousands of years ago, when they hardly had a system to write and to count, to be intimately connected to the stars?

To make a pun on "Fiddler on the Roof" as well as to state the factual answer to your question, it was "Tradition!" They didn't have television.

You answered my question of 'why did they have that tradition?' with 'because it was their tradition'.

Sorry if I don't find that very helpful.

If people, even earlier than the Greeks, were creating astrological mythology, or sometimes called archaeo-astrology, my question becomes even more relevant.

Maybe you have aa better researched answer than "they didn't have TV".

Originally posted by Evil_Santa

 

The Greek empire came into power (particularly the region around Athens) due to the overwhelming demand of their number one export.

Olives and Olive Oil.

Their language was spread across the region as the language of business for hundreds of years, much like today's language of business is English.

I agree with your statements... but did I ask those questions? I understand their influence on other cultures. I am trying to explore why and how they came up with theirs in the first place. Thanks

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Harte

 

what is it, that caused ... people thousands of years ago, when they hardly had a system to write and to count, to be intimately connected to the stars?

To make a pun on "Fiddler on the Roof" as well as to state the factual answer to your question, it was "Tradition!" They didn't have television.

You answered my question of 'why did they have that tradition?' with 'because it was their tradition'.

Sorry if I don't find that very helpful.

If people, even earlier than the Greeks, were creating astrological mythology, or sometimes called archaeo-astrology, my question becomes even more relevant.

Maybe you have aa better researched answer than "they didn't have TV".

Let me put it this way. All across both Americas, and around most of the world, there are tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of men and women that could tell you who the starting pitcher was in the 1978 World Series opening game. You know this is a fact, right?

So, how can you explain this fact?

Same way I explained the origins of astrology.

Only my explanation is far easier to see. After all, these baseball lovers could have obsessed over some other form of entertainment, such as model trains or stamp collecting, whereas the ancients had nothing else to look at in the evenings.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

 

hundreds, of thousands of men and women that could tell you who the starting pitcher was in the 1978 World Series opening game. So, how can you explain this fact?

Same way I explained the origins of astrology.

You clearly view things, how should I say, the 'other way around' than I do. Humans are lazy, we like to be fed, serviced and be happy. That's why we love TV. Why we swallow any useless nonsense. And why we follow the hypocrites until it is time for the slaughter. (financial or otherwise)

But we have become a tiny little bit better, the people thousands of years ago were even more like what I described, just like people in many 'less developed' countries today. Enough food for today means its time to drink. Alcohol is happiness.

I begin to doubt that you are human if you claim that PRIMITIVE people 2500 years ago or more (way before the crusades) would embark on intellectual pursuits provoked by TINY SPECKS OF LIGHT somewhere on the firmament, to spend their scarce resources to draw maps, and to invent stories - without any basis in truth - about Under-sea Gods and Winged-horses, to meticulously recount them, and eventually record them. So sophisticated that their imagery is still being used in today's sciences and philosophy.

We humans like to be happy, as long as we're not being ordered by a power hungry hypocrite into fighting wars.