Did Jews or other Semites jump-start ancient Greek civilization?

reply to post by JilianK


and, yet, the Last Supper is widely believed to have been a Passover Seder
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...


Seems to me he was not just jewish, he was a practicing jew.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


I recognize your reluctance to make such a sweeping declaration but I have seen some messed up stuff that I will reveal soon but I wanna make it into an elite thread lol.

I am confident in making sweeping claims now and although I strive to never underestimate anyone, I don't really feel any serious challenges that cannot be undone.

I am not saying that I cannot reword my claims to better form them. Like I could have said "We are descent of Egyptians partially" because obviously we (at least I personally) don't live in Egypt nor have I ever visited. And obviously we have sister civilizations so to speak from outlying areas of Egypt proper etc.

Terminology has infinite combinations but only some make sense.
Infinite realities could have happened, but only one that we know of did.

I guess the reason I say it so provocatively is because I want someone to disprove me. I want to crush this belief as is my habit and I enjoy rearranging my entire system of thought from time to time.

I know there are some people out there that are really smart and know exactly how to school me.
I won't keep my hopes up though. This thread is kinda buried and may remain so...

Everything seems to keep proving the Egypt theory, rather than discrediting it. In fact I don't know of anything that casts doubt on it specifically.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by JilianK

 

and, yet, the Last Supper is widely believed to have been a Passover Seder
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...


Seems to me he was not just jewish, he was a practicing jew.

Depending on how you define your terminology, yes.

I really like to view things in terms of the Zodiac first and foremost because it is the central tenant of all human civilizations throughout all history. The symbolism and traditions/beliefs/practices all reveal this as true if you look into it from this perspective.

Astrology and Alchemy are the ancient sciences after all.

These subjects are all interrelated with the topics in your post. I plan to address this eventually in depth, so forgive me for my current somewhat cryptic nature.

reply to post by Crakeur


There is a ton more to this but you probably are aware of some of it:

Drummund makes his case that at the time of Abraham, the Amorites first recorded the shift from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries as represented by the year commencing with the Ram (Aries) rather than the bull (Taurus). The Book of Joshua indicates that by the time of Moses the equinoxes had already shifted from Taurus to Aries as Moses had ordained that the civil year should commence with the month of Nisan (Aries) rather than the month of Taurus.The feast of the Passover is probably a celebration of the Age of Aries with the Paschal Lamb representative of Aries, traditionally associated with the symbol of the ram or sheep.[32]Drummond also hypothesizes that most number references in ancient texts were coded to hide their real value by their multiplication by 1000 or multiples of 1,000. For example in the Old Testament Joshua commanded 30,000 men and he slew 12,000 inhabitants of the city of Ai. The historian Berosus stated the Babylonians commenced astronomical observations 490,000 years (7 x 7 x 1000) before Alexander the Great.[33] Most early references were related to 7 (Sun, Moon and five visible planets), 12 (number of zodiacal signs and months per year), 30 (degrees per sign of the zodiac)and higher combinations of these numbers and other numbers associated with astronomical observations and astrology.

Bold part for significance in relation to your post.

Links to see more info at Astrological Age wiki
Axial Precession / Precession of Equinoxes wiki

reply to post by muzzleflash


all holidays are derived from something, of that there's no doubt. that's why all major faiths seem to have a holiday on, or around, the same time and, yes, the major ones seem to be related to the changing of the seasons.

Regardless of the original source of the jewish Seder, it is widely believed that the Last Supper was a seder. Thus, Jesus was a practicing jew.

reply to post by muzzleflash

But his math is wrong. 7 x 7 x 1000 is not 490,000. That seems to invalidate his claims about these numbers, does it not?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


Interesting you bring that up, I found the full copy of the book:

Link

"Oedipus Judaicus Allegory in the Old Testament"

I have been looking through it and I cannot even find where it mentions this haha.
So I don't know where whoever created the WIki got this 7x7x1000 thing from. I sort of assume it must be a typo and they are missing a zero somewhere?

I actually don't know anything about this specific piece you asked about.
I only posted that snippet mainly for the bold part that is pretty provable from many angles of approach.

It's a really interesting piece of writing though the intro is pretty funny. I am going to continue reading some of it if I find anything I'll let you know

But yeah, someone needs to fix the wiki on that poor math (typo?)

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

Interesting you bring that up, I found the full copy of the book:
Link

"Oedipus Judaicus Allegory in the Old Testament"

I pretend that the ancient Jews, like other nations of antiquity, had their esoteric and their exoteric doctrines. They concealed the former under innumerable types and symbols, the meaning of which is generally unknown among their descendants. It is the object of my book to explain the hidden sense of many passages in the Hebrew Scriptures; but as Christians are, for the most part, so well satisfied with the literal sense, as never to look for any other...

there maybe passages in this volume, which are capable of alarming the timid, and of provoking the prejudiced. Ignorance bears ill being told that it has much to learn... what we have been taught to credit as children, we are seldom disposed to question as men.

Called away from speculative inquiries by the common business of life, men in general possess neither the inclination, nor the leisure, to examine what they believe, or why they believe. A powerful prejudice remains in the mind; ensures conviction without the trouble of thinking...

This is how it starts out. Thanks for the link.

Originally posted by Crakeur
and, yet, the Last Supper is widely believed to have been a Passover Seder
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
Seems to me he was not just jewish, he was a practicing jew.

So then explain to me, how is it I am Christian and not Jewish

how is it this "man" created so many Christians, and still only few million 10-13 Jews are on Earth

If he was practicing Judaism, why isn't half the world Jewish then. Why are Jews still stuck in the old testament.

Bottom line is, when a person of power wields that power to have masses follow.

Why didn't Jesus just throw everybody onto Judaism bus.

JilianK

So then explain to me, how is it I am Christian and not Jewish

because your parents were Christian, and not Jewish

JilianK
how is it this "man" created so many Christians, and still only few million 10-13 Jews are on Earth

There are a variety of reasons why Judaism is not the most populated faith. A long running history of persecution against the jews is partly the cause.

JilianK
Why are Jews still stuck in the old testament.

Jews aren't "stuck" in the old testament. Jews follow the new testament. Christians follow the new testament because Jesus didn't exist in the old testament. There will always be people who believe the sequel is better than the original, and vice versa.

JilianK

Why didn't Jesus just throw everybody onto Judaism bus.

Because they didn't have buses back then?

Jesus wasn't preaching christianity. He was a jew who was, after his death, deified by his followers, thus a new religion was born.

Originally posted by JilianK

Originally posted by Crakeur
and, yet, the Last Supper is widely believed to have been a Passover Seder
www.biblicalarchaeology.org...
Seems to me he was not just jewish, he was a practicing jew.

So then explain to me, how is it I am Christian and not Jewish

how is it this "man" created so many Christians, and still only few million 10-13 Jews are on Earth

If he was practicing Judaism, why isn't half the world Jewish then. Why are Jews still stuck in the old testament.

Bottom line is, when a person of power wields that power to have masses follow.

Why didn't Jesus just throw everybody onto Judaism bus.

Very briefly.... well kinda.
The jesus figure arrived long after the Jews were divided into three sects, the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes. Jesus (which was not his real name but a Latin version monikered by the Roman Catholic Church long after his death)... is recorded to have frequently rebuked and denounced both the Sadducees and Pharisees... whilst not mentioning the Essenes.... the testimony of both Philo and Josephus appears to respect the mode of life pursued by the Essenes, as these authors were fully acquainted with it.

Your jesus figure didn't create christianity nor control the direction his followers took. It evolved.... the christian 'cult' started after his death as a small group of people who were still practicing jews. This 'cult'... followed an alternative version of judaism to the mainstream.
From Jerusalem the jewish/christians eventually found their way to Rome... lost their Semite names and now had Roman names. At the end of the 1st century this christian sect began to be recognized as a separate religion from Judaism.
In Rome Paul's influence on Christian thinking was promoted above the other apostolic versions, as 'Paulism'... which seems to focus more on the miracles than the other apostles.
Roman christians had established a theology based on christ rather than on the Mosaic Law. They refused to acknowledge the Roman Emperor's supremacy or that he was a god, as he was a pagan ... hence the christian persecutions by Romans and Jews. And for Peter the first bishop for the roman christians... it was 'off with his head' and buried under the first christian church in Rome.
Roman Paganism gave way, as christianity absorbed pagan rituals and their key dates with an appealing doctrine. So we have a sect/cult made up of judaism/christian paulism/paganism which became acknowledged as the christian religion.
Eventually Roman catholicism dominated the roman empire as the state religion and the title of 'Pontifex Maximus' usually reserved for the Roman Emperor, who was considered as a god, was given to the first pope when church and state were separate entities... but that soon changed... which makes an interesting plot twist in the history of The Holy Roman Empire and the Holy Roman Catholic Church uniting under the pope instead of the Emperor. Church and State became One.

The papal title Pontifex Maximus can be traced back in different forms to the ancient Chaldean times. When Medo-Persia conquered Babylon, the Babylonian religion was maintained, but after a revolt of the priesthood, the priests of Babylon were driven out of Medo-Persia, and established themselves at Pergamum, taking with them their titles and vestures. The last pontiff king of Pergamum was Attalus III, who bequeathed his title to the emperor of Rome in 133 BC. In the fourth century AD, Christian emperor Gratian refused the title, and in the year 431 AD, the title was taken over by Damascus, bishop of Rome.

source

There's a variety of non practicing/practicing christian jews/practicing orthodox jews, etc, etc along with several jewish religions now... they have their own bible as well as a collection of sacred books... Torah, Talmud, Tanakh, Midrash, Responsa ...a vast collection of thousands of volumes, Zohar,Kabbalah and the greek translation The Septuagint... used by the new testament writers. Far too much to read... probably a good reason why it didn't catch on as the popular religion.
The Bible that you are aware of is a collection of selected works which was decided in Turkey by The First Council of Nicaea around 300-400 years after jesus's death, on the command of the Roman Emperor Constantine.
Why did Christianity dominate over the Jewish ones... because it was the state religion of the Holy Roman Empire... The Holy Roman Catholic Church which still has its Pontifex Maximus/Pontif/Pope.

Originally posted by LexiconV
The jesus figure arrived long after the Jews were divided into three sects, the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes. Jesus (which was not his real name but a Latin version monikered by the Roman Catholic Church long after his death)

It's the Latinized version of the Greek Iesous, which had been in use for at least a century before Jesus was born. (E.g., in the Septuagint.) Anyone speaking of him in Greek or Latin during his lifetime would have used Iesous or Jesus, respectively. Unless they were trying to be sophisticated by pronouncing a foreign name "correctly."

The Bible that you are aware of is a collection of selected works which was decided in Turkey by The First Council of Nicaea around 300-400 years after jesus's death, on the command of the Roman Emperor Constantine.

Wikipedia disputes that, so I'll just add that not everyone is "aware" of the same Bible, as there are at least three major canons in Christianity today.

reply to post by FurvusRexCaeli


Yep I need to fix that... it was about 3 am when i typed that and its 5:15 am now... bit on the over tired side of the night ."Constantine commissioned fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople before the council of ...etc, etc"

Originally posted by LexiconV

 

Your jesus figure didn't create christianity nor control the direction his followers took. It evolved....
From Jerusalem the jewish/christians eventually found their way to Rome... lost their Semite names and now had Roman names.
Roman Paganism gave way, as christianity absorbed pagan rituals
The jesus figure arrived long after the Jews were divided

So this is the strategy.

Naïvete.

Everything just happens, it gets lost, it evolves. Nothing happens on purpose. Nobody needs to take responsibility.

Paul didn't change his name on purpose, or to hide his identity, he just "lost" it. Peter didn't change his name on purpose, or to hide his identity, he just "lost" it also.

Nowadays, when a gun goes off, it was an accident, not to kill somebody; a person commits adultery, it just happened, not because they wanted to have sex; a thief steals, it was a mistake, not because he wanted the money.

Christianity was not "chosen" because it suited the emperor. It just happened. No, it was chosen.

What is the truth when nobody is there to to take responsibility?

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by Sphota

 

In other words, man didnt come from monkeys and Greeks didnt come from Jews.

For three centuries preceding Jesus there was a country called Egypt and their people are called Egyptians. Their leaders were called Pharaohs.

Do these words not strike you as misnomers? The leaders were emperors, they were Greek colonizers, and they spoke Greek. Our concept of one country, one language, one culture, one people is flawed.

To respond to your post, "Greeks" may have been Indo-European, but not all of them. Who were their rulers? Maybe the rulers were not any more Greek than the Ptolemies were Egyptian - despite the title they had given themselves.

I'm not sure I'm getting your point.

I thought that Rome controlled Egypt around that time. At any rate, Egypt is an exonym, that's not what they called themselves (I think what they called themselves is related to the modern term Coptic).

I'll be the first to agree that one country, one people is not always the case. Even Indo-Europeans practiced exogamy. But everything is so fluid, how do you then ever classify what an X is? The only way is to choose a moment in time and use a gestalt model.

Here's genes and memes. Genes don't predispose culture, otherwise you wouldn't have Sub-Saharans in Chicago speaking a form of English, Turkic people in Bulgaria speaking a Slavic language or Japanese people in Brazil speaking Portuguese.

None of these examples, however, negate a general genetic range of "Greekness" or Semiticness" or Even "Japaneseness" for that mater.

I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say...

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I really like to view things in terms of the Zodiac first and foremost because it is the central tenant of all human civilizations throughout all history. The symbolism and traditions/beliefs/practices all reveal this as true if you look into it from this perspective.

There was no zodiac in Ancient Egypt.

Harte

Originally posted by Sphota

 

I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say...

Yes, genetics is not what I am addressing. You may have heard the phrase "Muslims don't hate Americans, they hate the American government."

I have noticed that a country's leadership is often disconnected from its people. The Ptolemy dynasty is an example for that. After Alexander had been murdered his empire was divided up and Ptolemy got the Greek portion of it.

For the longest time, I did not realize that Egypt was basically a Greek Province - during a religiously relevant time period, the 300 years that lead up to shortly before Jesus' birth. And it seems to me that many others, also, don't realize it. This distorts the context in which we see the Bible. The misnomer "Pharaoh Ptolemy" perpetuates this misperception.

Once you realize that the governments are totally disconnected from its people (even in democracies), you may gain a new perspective on why wars happen, why religions are being accepted as quasi-factual, why government sponsored education has an interest in deceiving its students.

Ptolemy did not want to be perceived as foreigner, the authors of the New Testament did not want to be recognized as Jewish, and the founder of "Ancient Greece" did not want to be known as Phoenicians.

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I really like to view things in terms of the Zodiac first and foremost because it is the central tenant of all human civilizations throughout all history. The symbolism and traditions/beliefs/practices all reveal this as true if you look into it from this perspective.

There was no zodiac in Ancient Egypt.

Harte

I'll rephrase, "Astro-theology". If the issue is mere semantics. But you are right their versions differed from what we today consider it to be.

Egyptian astronomy consisted of the identification of the heavenly bodies in the sky and their connection with the deities that were believed to play a role in religious mythology and practice.[6]

This is the exact same theory behind formulating such things as Astrology/Zodiac Charts/Constellations etc.

Astronomical Ceiling of Senemut Tomb

Astronomical ceilings bore significant symbolism for the Egyptians as they combined divine religion with more earthly aspects of daily life such as agriculture and labor. The detailed depiction of astronomy and deities illustrates the Egyptians desire to understand the heavens and the attempt to apply that understanding to the gods that they believed influenced all aspects of life.

Basically the mythology and the stars were directly interrelated.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

 

Basically the mythology and the stars were directly interrelated.

I never understood why ancient people would bother to stay up at night, to arbitrarily connect some 'spots' with each other, to call them a "constellation", and then somehow come up with a connection between their lines in the night sky and what happens here on earth. I'd be interested if you could point me to a thread about that.

What do the stars say about why the Greeks adopted a foreign alphabet, and why they adopted mythology that considered the number 12 as essential as did the Old Testament, and why they used the same tripartite as several other cultures?

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by muzzleflash
I really like to view things in terms of the Zodiac first and foremost because it is the central tenant of all human civilizations throughout all history. The symbolism and traditions/beliefs/practices all reveal this as true if you look into it from this perspective.

There was no zodiac in Ancient Egypt.

Harte

I'll rephrase, "Astro-theology". If the issue is mere semantics. But you are right their versions differed from what we today consider it to be.

Egyptian astronomy consisted of the identification of the heavenly bodies in the sky and their connection with the deities that were believed to play a role in religious mythology and practice.[6]

This is the exact same theory behind formulating such things as Astrology/Zodiac Charts/Constellations etc.

Astronomical Ceiling of Senemut Tomb

Astronomical ceilings bore significant symbolism for the Egyptians as they combined divine religion with more earthly aspects of daily life such as agriculture and labor. The detailed depiction of astronomy and deities illustrates the Egyptians desire to understand the heavens and the attempt to apply that understanding to the gods that they believed influenced all aspects of life.

Basically the mythology and the stars were directly interrelated.

Sorry, I assumed you knew what a zodiac was.

Yes, Egyptians looked at and recognized stars, and a handful of star patterns. But not many.

No, they (and hundreds of other ancient cultures) did not have a zodiac of any kind.

And no, it is absolutely NOT "...the exact same theory behind formulating such things as Astrology/Zodiac Charts/Constellations etc"

Harte