What if Jesus is the DECEPTION?

reply to post by Jusvistn

I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me."
. . .
I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

I think that it's quite likely that the line "will put no other GODS before me." was written by a guy sitting in a back room of a temple, rather than by some manifested god during a mythical migration hundreds of years earlier.

If that is the case, then the "god" himself is suspected of not existing in the way the guy in the back room wrote it. The whole question about Jesus becomes rather moot.

reply to post by Jusvistn

I think the Spirit of God remains one and the same, but who's aim is was to find expression through the creation whereby the son is the fullness of the embodiment of that principal as intended by design. What this then says about us all, at least in potentia is rather extraordinary, namely, that the human being was created with intent to "house" the living Spirit of God as the "temple" of God's spirit. Perhaps with Jesus, he's just the real thing whereby the rest of us have been but pale imitations relative to a model of perfection, wholeness and integrity whereby at core, there is no separate self and therefore no such thing as a "particularized" Jesus and he knew this to the core of his being and therefore was simply expressing himself truthfully and honestly when he said the things he said about himself.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

(John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

~ John 1

www.biblegateway.com...

reply to post by wildapache

well i have to say Marduk/Ba'al/Ra/Lucifer was the one Jesus was refering to as father,and not Enlil/Zeus?/Yahweh.

I don't know about Marduk and Ba'al or Enlil. As you noted this is in conspiracy:

Phaëton(shining) was riding the chariot of his father Helios (Sol,Sun) when the coup occurred. Phaëton aka Lucifer was shot down by Zeus (Jupiter) who used to be a very minor planet. Zeus took over as top god, and installed his son Apollo as the Sun god. No one knows what happened to Helios. It's possible that he is being covered up by Apollo(hidden)

In either case, .Phaëton/Lucifer is on the Earth somewhere, maybe dead, maybe alive. That's all I've got so far.

reply to post by pthena


I think it quite possible that gods exist, just not in the capacity that we expect them to.

I know this sounds strange coming from an atheist, so let me explain. When I say "it is possible that gods exist", I mean in the sense that "god" is just what we call them. Just because we recognize them by a label doesn't mean that the label actually applies. I can call a dog a shoe and still recognize a dog when I see one. I just get confused whenever I see a dog and a shoe in the same room.

Remember the word "god" in and of itself has become quite the end-all for any type of being in existence. It's a descriptor of a state of being at the threshold between existence and nonexistence. You have one foot dangling over the edge of being everything and nothing at all. What power is there in such a state? No power. None at all. There is only the sheer joy of BEING the entirety of experience, every single moment of every single space of every single plane of existence all in one eternal moment of collective reminiscence. This, to me, is heaven. The state of knowing exactly what everything is worth as determined by the larger picture, and understanding the exact value of those experiences as individual occurrences. Knowing this, feeling those experiences, and possessing an utterly perfect comprehension of what each of those moments mean in totality, both independently and as part of the whole. You are that. You possess no identity, you are absorbed wholly in that condition.

The god that we keep talking about is just an inch shy of such a state. Hell, it could be that he's a fifth or sixth density being tasked with the management of this world as a part of his own education. Who knows? My point here is, "god" is a label for something that functions somewhere beyond our nature, a label that meant something else a long time ago but we've recreated out of a desire for gods to be what we want from them, and it's quite possible that we've simply overshot in our attempt to comprehend something much, much more simple that does exist. Maybe we've been understanding the term "god" wrong this whole time.

Maybe we've molded them to our desires, instead of molding our understanding to them. Because if you look at it, I mean really look at it, this Judaic deity has all the hallmarks of having been invented by an insecure society. Any society that were more concerned with understanding than with control might have lauded an entirely different sort of divine figure. The god we recognize reveals more about us than it ever revealed about the universe and how it works.

So yeah. Maybe we should work on redefining what a god actually means because we work on redefining ourselves in reaction to a hastily compiled god whose nature might be more dependent on our own than we ever realized.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
god whose nature might be more dependent on our own than we ever realized.

For sure, especially if at some deep fundamental level he IS us! Or in the case of us, as differentiated from Jesus, the very best part of ourselves I should say!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

For sure, especially if at some deep fundamental level he IS us! Or in the case of us, as differentiated from Jesus, the very best part of ourselves I should say!

I don't think so. I think "God" is whatever we want him to be. That's why he was written as being so powerful - so that no matter what we asked of him, there was no argument saying that he couldn't give us what we wanted. And if he didn't? Well, obviously, he works in mysterious ways.

Friggin' cop-outs.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Honestly I think the "x factor" involves an evolutionary principal of differentiation and reintegration and of death and resurrection such that "the last are first and the first last" in Jesus' case the first and the last where the best of the best was/is held in reserve, as the best for last. Therefore, the point of differentiation ie: the worst aspects of ourselves, can be reintegrated via a radical, transformative, forgiveness. This is very humorous for those given to "grok" of it most fully, because it forgives, invites and reintegrates us in spite of ourselves, including all our flaws and foibles meeting us right where we are while inviting us into the growth process by which we can becomes our truest and fullest selves, in God and as the children of God we were intended to be and to become. The "becoming" then in terms of who and what we are choosing in the domain of unfettered and unconstrained freedom, with absolute forgiveness is what matters. It's about "rolling" into something novel with integrity, but without falling apart at the seams in the process.

Human spiritual and psychological growth and well being is the aim of Jesus. It's not a "deception" but a free invitation to participate and close the circle at the most fundamental level as co-creators having come into an inheritance prepared for us from the time before time but not by anything we've done to earn or deserve it, but in SPITE of ourselves and that's FUNNY!

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.

~ Revelation 17

reply to post by Jusvistn


how is Jesus a deception?? Who is he trying to decieve?? and why is he trying to decieve??

reply to post by Jusvistn

. . . To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher . . .

Jesus and God are separate persons, the orthodox version of the Christian Trinity says that.
You may be listening to certain cult members who believe that they are the same person. That to me is the conspiracy, to water down the teachings of Jesus by mixing in Bronze Age ethics (connected with the various gods mentioned in the Old Testament) that are abhorrent in today's world.

Originally posted by Devino
reply to post by Jusvistn

 

For what it's worth, my two cents.

Jesus never claimed to be God. I believe the idea that he claimed to be God was a later interpretation or misinterpretation. Three of the four gospels claim Jesus said, "I am the son of man, the son of David." When asked if he was the Messiah he says, "What do the people say that I am? That is what I am."

That's some profound philosophy right there in my opinion. It is what other people believe you to be that makes you what you are to them. It therefore is philosophically incorrect to proclaim oneself a prophet or Messiah. These are titles that only other people can give, not a self proclamation.

So the question becomes, what is Jesus to you? If you believe that he is some nice old dude that had some fantastic philosophy and a beautiful outlook on life, then wonderful! That was the intended purpose. Follow his philosophical teachings and you will find much peace and love in your life. The same pretty much goes for the belief that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God or God in the flesh. Follow his teachings and you will find much peace and love in your life.

The problem arises, however, when other people attempt to tell us what they believe Jesus is/was. This is one of those paths that we must take on our own. It is wrong for someone to make a claim of belief in your name, or to tell you who you need to worship as God. A common question I ask myself is, “What would Jesus do?”

Why did the Jews kill Jesus then.

reply to post by wildapache

Originally posted by wildapache
well i have to say Marduk/Ba'al/Ra/Lucifer was the one Jesus was refering to as father,and not Enlil/Zeus?/Yahweh.

It makes sense that Marduk is Lucifer since he rebelled against The Igigi (The Watcher) and he became the opposite of them (Some say Nephilim or Fallen Angel). If Enki is Satan, The Serpent, The Dragon, the one that god The Humans to eat the food of Knowledge, then that means that Satan and Lucifer are two different beings.

Lucifer can be compared to Logi, Prometheus, and Marduk - The Rebel of The Gods giving knowledge to man.

I'm not sure why you compare Lucifer to Ba'al though. Ba'al was associated with The Bull and his name means "Father of Gods" . It reminds me more of Yahweh considering that all THREE, Yahweh, Ba'al, AND Enlil were associated with The Bull, but Yahweh hated his father Ba'al which is why he instructed his followers to destroy The Golden Bull.

(I am not just talking about just The Bible here, I am talking about Ancient Canaanite Writings - the ORIGINAL understanding of Yahweh).

How you connected "Ra" to Lucifer, I have no clue.

Jesus would be more like Horus:


They were both born of a virgin. (Horus: The Virgin Isis-Meri| Jesus: The Virgin Mary).
They were both the only begotten son of God.
They had similar father names (Horus: Seb | Jesus: Joseph).
They were both born in a cave (or stable).
They both had an annunciation of an angel.
Both of their births were heralded by stars (Most likely both Sirius - but this is uncertain).
They both had Shepherd as a birth witness.
They both had a death threat during infancy (Horus: Herut, Jesus: Herod)
They both had their special ceremony (Bar Mitzah, etc.) at the age of 12.
There is no date of their lives between ages 12 and 30.
They were both baptized at 30 in a river.
The fate of their baptizers were both beheaded.
They both were tempted by their arch-rival (Horus: set-[hen], Jesus: Satan)
They both walked on water, healed the sick, healed the blind, and made the sea calm.
They both raised the dead (Horus: Osirus, Jesus: Lazarus)
The raising of the dead both happened at a place called "Anu" (Jesus: Beth-Anu)
They were both transfigured on a mountain.
They both had a "Sermon on The Mount".
They were both crucified.
They were both buried in tombs.
They were both resurrected after 3 days.
Both of their resurrections were announced by a woman.
The prophecies says that they were both reign for 1,000 years.
They were both called "The Savior of Man".
They were both called "The Anointed One" (Horus: KRST, Jesus: Christ)

They were both called similar things:
( The good shepherd, the lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, the fisher, the winnower.)

They were both represented by The Fish, The Beetle, The Vine, and The Sheperd's Crook.

They were both symbolized by a lion.

So, was Jesus a deception?

If the Gods of Light are deceivers, then so is Jesus.

If Jesus/Horus and their father Yah/Ra isn't the truth, Then Set-Hen (Satan) - The Serpent - Enki is.

Originally posted by Jusvistn
I honestly do not want to start a holy war or all out religious cyber fight, but am looking for real input.

I believe in GOD, I believe that there is an intelligent design to our planet, our environment and our species, but I truly struggle with the concept of Jesus as GOD.

I'm not saying that Jesus never existed, and I'm not saying that Jesus wasn't a great inspiration bringing GODS will and knowledge to us, but I find it difficult to worship a man when GOD says you "will put no other GODS before me." Essentially, is that not what folks are doing when they are praying and worshiping Jesus INSTEAD of God?

And though Jesus teaches these things, and then tells us to worship him..... what if he is the true deception in the grand scheme of things?

To me, Jesus is separate from God, and I have a hard time calling them one in the same, and I have difficulty with the God made flesh aspect that brings us to the whole Son, Spirit, Holy Ghost thing..... For me, to believe in the "one true God" means that Jesus would be no more than a teacher as what you would find preaching from the front of the church today. So I ask again, could Jesus be the Deception, and in his "teachings" be pulling the people away from God and into his own agenda?

I'm just trying to get my head wrapped around this. I appreciate your civil insights.

Perhaps this will help help for some insight:

Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!")

In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be g.asped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God."

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

Clicky, clicky...

As for the trinity, maybe this would help?:

Full Question

Please explain the Holy Trinity in plain English to me so I can explain to a friend of another faith. I have looked up the Trinity, and it is difficult to understand and explain.

Answer

The Trinity is one of the most difficult realities to comprehend but it might be a helpful start to recognize the distinction between a “being” and a “person.”

God is one Being (the one and only divine Being). This divine Being exists as three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). This is unusual to us because each human being is only one person and it might seem that every being has to be one person: one being = one person.

But that’s simply not always the case. For example, a dog is a being but is not a person. A tree is a being but is not a person. In these cases, one being = zero persons. On the other hand, an angel is a being and is a person. In their case, angelic beings are similar to human beings: one being = one person.

Once you recognize that not every being is always exactly one person, it might be easier to grasp God’s unique reality, the Trinity: one Being = three Persons.

Clicky some 'mo

reply to post by AfterInfinity

When I say "it is possible that gods exist", I mean in the sense that "god" is just what we call them.

People have changed the definitions. You wrote here

So did we decide that the term "god" has no definite parameter? Because it seems that everywhere I look, someone is using the word to describe a rather broad regard for one thing or another. Hell, maybe we can just start saying, "Cripes, dude, that's a godly ride!" or maybe, "You wouldn't believe how godly she looked!" It can become just as vague and loose and ubiquitously applicable a word as every other one in the English language.

That's it exactly, before monotheism took over the World in the Dark Ages people did talk like that. What ever language they used "god" meant "mighty" or "awesome" or "excellent" or "mind bending to look at".

It's a descriptor of a state of being at the threshold between existence and nonexistence. You have one foot dangling over the edge of being everything and nothing at all.

I'll probably have to re-read the rest of this post a couple of times, so I'm bookmarking it.

I understand that people don't generally see the gods. "the threshold of existence and not existence" sounds as good of a description as any. More response later.

this Judaic deity has all the hallmarks of having been invented by an insecure society.

This seems painfully self-evident.

Yes, redefinition is required.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Human spiritual and psychological growth and well being is the aim of Jesus. It's not a "deception" but a free invitation to participate and close the circle at the most fundamental level as co-creators having come into an inheritance prepared for us from the time before time but not by anything we've done to earn or deserve it, but in SPITE of ourselves and that's FUNNY!

That part confuses me. We're not being forced to do anything, and yet there are only three places we can go to when we die: heaven, for those who have earned "God"; hell, for those who have denied "God", and purgatory, for those who have not yet been judged. If we are really so free, why is it so black and white? Why is it so absolute? I enjoy the Ra Material because the theories presented therein are eternal in nature. There is no end to the cycle, and there is no punishment. There is only education and the inevitable grasp of existence. You are taught until you learn. Then you advance. Eventually, you start all over and embark on a whole new experience.

Now THAT'S justice. That is love and peace and harmony and understanding. Don't force it, just let it come. Everyone learns differently, and sometimes they have to do things their own way.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

There is no hell in Christ, he crashed the gate and it did not prevail, so hell, even as a possibility has been removed by His Great Work, no matter what you believe. After all, he did say, of the very people who placed him on the cross, who certainly did NOT "believe in him" - "forgive them father for they know not what they do.". Thus, his love and forgiveness is really an all-inclusive, all-or-nothing proposition without compromise, which is what gives it wholeness and integrity, that it goes all the way and the whole distance to reconcile man to God and reintegrate the sinner as child of a loving God whereby the highest standard of Justice is equaled in height only by it's tender Mercy and Forgiveness.

And the sooner we receive what it offers, the soon the "grokking" can take place as a formative causation unto a redemption of the world wherein God is included and not excluded (that would hardly be fair!).

And by "God" Spirit and Truth, Objective Reality, Awareness, Compassionate sympathetic understanding, are all synonymous and synonymous with Jesus' sent calling, character, and boundless love and understanding and comprehension of the human condition and what would be required for the sake of average Joe.

Best regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan


But if we do not repent, then our souls go to hell. End of story. Right? Every sin we commit requires repentance and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice in order to be forgiven. If we fail any step of that process, we lose that gift. It is withdrawn. And then we're damned.

That doesn't sound very understanding at all to me. "God" is the engineer of every flaw and every temptation and every circumstance surrounding those flaws and temptations. Every failure to follow his edicts is of his own design. I don't feel I should be held responsible for something he engineered. If he wants me to change so badly, let him rewind and rewrite my personality and my life. It should be as easy as blinking for such a spectacularly powerful entity as "God". Wink! The Earth's entire history has been changed. The dinosaurs never went extinct, man evolved into Conan-like figures who ride velociraptors and spend their free time building vast underground burrows that shelter thousands of their people. They speak in a language not so different from the Ents of the Tolkien verse, and may whatever deities you hold dear have mercy on you if you touch their berry-slathered hog steaks without first wrangling a pterodactyl and offering it as a sacrifice to their elders.

Anyway, "God" holds us responsible for his displeasure when he should be holding himself responsible for our inclinations and opportunities. I will not take credit for his mistakes, and I will not change myself to appease his perfect nature. If he wants me to be perfect for him, then he can make me into a demigod or something that makes the process of perfection a little easier on my vulnerable incarnation.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The god we recognize reveals more about us than it ever revealed about the universe and how it works.

I've been thinking about the sun lately. I realize that the sun is not inside the dome of heaven. Sky is not really over the Sun.

If a person started going up to the Sun, eventually, he would be going down to the Sun. Earth would be up then. That's because of gravity(a force able to turn things upside down). I should consider these things when thinking of the gods.

Sky? Sun? Which is greater? If Sun stopped shining, surface life would soon cease. Deep in the Ocean are creatures that get heat and nutrients right out of Earth vents.

If Sky left, Ocean would go too, even those deep sea creatures would cease. These physical gods work together. The not physical probably work together too.

reply to post by pthena

The not physical probably work together too.

What do you mean by this?

reply to post by pthena


That goes to show what you know . In Egypt the library of Alexandria was burned by the Romans and one of the only things that survived was sheets of bronze inscribed and now referred to as the Kolbrin Bible . On those ancient bronze sheets the Jewish Exodus was recorded . And then there is the chariot wheels on the bottom of the Red Sea with Gold leaf trim on them . That had to be someone important that owned that chariot .
I don't suppose you saw that .

reply to post by pthena


JESUS says He is GOD! believe GOD'S WORD!== JOHN 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and ye believed not. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of My sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them and they follow Me.

28 And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.

29 My Father, who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father’s hand.

30 I and My Father are one.”