Your "Ufology" Is Lacking. Can You Handle the Truth (Evidence)?

Originally posted by DelMarvel
Just to throw this out there: just looking at 1947 onward, the abduction/breeding meme hasn't been consistently reported by experiencers. There was a period of time where people were seeing a lot of Nordic aliens who supposedly claimed to be from planets in our solar system. We didn't start getting a lot of reports of smaller aliens until around the time of Betty and Barney Hill. What has been reported has changed over the years and there is unquestionably a psychological aspect to it (such as correlation with science fiction.)

I have to agree that we can't "argue" out an easy answer for any of this. While I have finally come to some personal conclusions, I feel it imperative that I continue to look at all data. Yep, a great argument can be made that abductions, especially, are all in the head.

On the other hand, we have a historical body of experience that suggest that whatever these high-strangeness phenomenon are, it seems as if it does have an aspect of "physicality" that simple psychology, as we know it at this point, can't account for.

That forces me to consider what the mystics, occultists, religions have to say on the matter. Is there a realm--outside our normal perception--that exists and that we only have access to in some form of altered state?

Skyfloating's thread Alien Abduction: An astral phenomenon? is one of my all time favorites here at ATS.

Great discussion points from all of y'all...I hope we are still having fun!

A few paragraphs from Incommensurability, Orthodoxy and the Physics of High Strangeness: A 6-layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena by Jacques F. Vallee and Eric W. Davis

Abstract

The main argument presented in this paper is that the continuing study of unidentified aerial phenomena (“UAP”) may offer an existence theorem for new models of physical reality. The current SETI paradigm and its “assumption of mediocrity” place restrictions on forms of non-human intelligence that may be researched. A similar bias exists in the ufologists’ often-stated hypothesis that UAP, if real, must represent space visitors. Observing that both models are biased by anthropomorphism, the authors attempt to clarify the issues surrounding “high strangeness” observations by distinguishing six layers of information that can be derived from UAP events, namely (1) physical manifestations, (2) anti-physical effects, (3) psychological factors, (4) physiological factors, (5) psychic effects and (6) cultural effects. In a further step they propose a framework for scientific analysis of unidentified aerial phenomena that takes into account the incommensurability problem….

…The rational study of reported cases of Unidentified Aerospace Phenomena (UAP) is currently at an impasse. This situation has as much to do with the incomplete state of our models of physical reality as it does with the complexity of the data. A primary objection to the reality of UAP events among scientists is that witnesses consistently report objects whose seemingly absurd behavior “cannot possibly” be related to actual phenomena, even under extreme conditions. Skeptics insist that intelligent extraterrestrial (ETI) visitors simply would not perpetrate such antics as are reported in the literature. This argument can be criticized as an anthropocentric, self-selected observation resulting from our own limited viewpoint as 21st century Homo Sapiens trying to draw conclusions about the nature of the universe. Nonetheless, the high strangeness of many reports must be acknowledged….

…In any scientific question it must be possible to ascertain to what extent a hypothesis, when tested and proven to be true, actually “explains” the observed facts. In the case of UAP, however, as in physics generally, a hypothesis may well be “proven true” while an apparently contradictory hypothesis is also proven true. Thus the hypothesis that the phenomenon of light is caused by particles is true, but so is the opposite hypothesis that it is caused by waves. We must be prepared for the time when we will be in a position to formulate scientific hypotheses for UAP, and then we may face a similar situation…

And I'm not saying that I definitively believe it's "all in the head," just that there seem to be parts of it that are psychological.

.....Thus the hypothesis that the phenomenon of light is caused by particles is true, but so is the opposite hypothesis that it is caused by waves. We must be prepared for the time when we will be in a position to formulate scientific hypotheses for UAP, and then we may face a similar situation…

True and not true at the same time. I like it!

Originally posted by DelMarvel

.....Thus the hypothesis that the phenomenon of light is caused by particles is true, but so is the opposite hypothesis that it is caused by waves. We must be prepared for the time when we will be in a position to formulate scientific hypotheses for UAP, and then we may face a similar situation…

That statement is what actually made me post it.

reply to post by DelMarvel


All he is saying is that the ETH and IDH both fit the observed phenomena.
To that I would suggest that perhaps the TTH does as well. Time Traveler Hypothesis.

hmm after reading all the posts I have a thought .Could the reason why ufology is so muddied and no real direction is that everyone is right to a point.

I mean secret military aircraft, dis information,secret medical experiments, natural phenom,real ET's doing what ever,time travelers from the future,inner/extra dimensional visitors do some long term breeding experiment,to psychological problems to yes I will say it fallen angels/demons.

there is no one concrete truth all are happening to some extent which makes it hard to see the big picture

reply to post by othello


Very well could be.

I have been reading up on Skinwalker Ranch for the last hour or so. Some mind bending stuff there.

How can anyone even be EXPECTED to make sense of that stuff??
It is insane!

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by DelMarvel

.....Thus the hypothesis that the phenomenon of light is caused by particles is true, but so is the opposite hypothesis that it is caused by waves. We must be prepared for the time when we will be in a position to formulate scientific hypotheses for UAP, and then we may face a similar situation…

That statement is what actually made me post it.

Not to throw yet another religion into the mix but there was something on my Zen calendar a while back about wise men having the ability to entertain simultaneously conflicting thoughts. I'll have to dig that quote out.

Originally posted by othello

I mean secret military aircraft, dis information,

The last UFO book I read was Mirage Men by Mark Pilkington which dealt with the involvement of intelligence agencies and the military in creating the modern UFO narrative. I understand the author might have some credibility issues and that the book covers material that was already known but I suspect there is at least some substance to it

reply to post by HairlessApe

No, the problem is that despite being given the data some people will say "there is no data" because they can't accept the objective fact that they've been proven wrong.

Evidently taking up a collection for replacement mirrors for the shattered ones would not likely help.

Many of us likely feel that we've offered substantive issues, points and even evidence . . . all totally ignored.

Some folks seem immune or inoculated against or willfully blind about the looming evils involved in the Ufology realm.

Time will certainly tell.

Originally posted by othello
hmm after reading all the posts I have a thought .Could the reason why ufology is so muddied and no real direction is that everyone is right to a point.

I mean secret military aircraft, dis information,secret medical experiments, natural phenom,real ET's doing what ever,time travelers from the future,inner/extra dimensional visitors do some long term breeding experiment,to psychological problems to yes I will say it fallen angels/demons.

there is no one concrete truth all are happening to some extent which makes it hard to see the big picture

Personally, I have long felt that was highly likely true to emphatically true.

CERTAINLY the picture is soooooooooooo complex that making much useful sense out of it is akin to assembling an SR71 from a junkyard.

Originally posted by DelMarvel
The last UFO book I read was Mirage Men by Mark Pilkington which dealt with the involvement of intelligence agencies and the military in creating the modern UFO narrative. I understand the author might have some credibility issues and that the book covers material that was already known but I suspect there is at least some substance to it

Other than my signature, I don't generally plug my own posts. In this case, I feel compelled too. Admittedly, it takes a bit of stamina to get through, but the following thread, imo, collates a wide-range of solid information and makes a good case that should concern all who have invested their time and heart into ufology.

How can we ever hope to know the truth until we separate the tricksters and their psyops from the real deal? Maybe, even, they are part of that true/untrue/true paradox?

The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs

The subject matter needs better minds than my own...maybe some of y'all can help?

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by othello

 

Very well could be.

I have been reading up on Skinwalker Ranch for the last hour or so. Some mind bending stuff there.

How can anyone even be EXPECTED to make sense of that stuff??
It is insane!

The documentation/science is sorely lacking considering the Phds involved. It is intriguing from the standpoint of high-strangeness or black-ops or psyops or all of the above. The players are an intriguing lot that's for sure. What are they up to?

reply to post by The GUT


Well, I get the feeling they were operating under a gag order of sorts.
I mean, we have average folks on this site who have released more evidence than Vallee and company out in Utah.

And yeah, high strangeness is an under statement. I want to go out there myself.
If that skin walker, or whatever, is responsible for cattle mutilations it interests me greatly. We have a history of mutilations near my hometown.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by The GUT

 

Well, I get the feeling they were operating under a gag order of sorts.

That's what the website suggests and what Vallee himself has alluded too...but what might that mean??!

reply to post by The GUT


Well, I think one need look only as far as Mr. Robert Bigelow and the OTHER things he is involved with.

That's where my money would go. He is a very wealthy man and very wealthy men generally don't get that way by. Relying on luck.

ETA: or to put it another way, I doubt the results of their research did much to dissuade Vallee from his IDH posture.
But to me, it could all still be equally applicable to the ETH. It all brings up a convo I had with one of our skeptics here lately about near Earth skies monitoring done by NASA and why ain't NASA catching these UFOs on their way in?

Well, the evidence strongly suggests they aren't coming from space.
They are popping up inside our atmosphere. Either via wormhole or dimensional portal.

Originally posted by JayinAR
...or to put it another way, I doubt the results of their research did much to dissuade Vallee from his IDH posture.

Which brings me to a question that has been "burning" me for quite a few months now: How much can we really trust Doc Jock (Vallee)?

His brilliance and facility for asking the hard questions is unmatched, imo, in the ufological field. He seems ever so sincere. The folk he has--and continues to--associate himself with...well that's another story.

The reason I ask, in a nutshell, is this: It's not in question that he has worked on many TS projects. As such, he is obviously bound NOT to reveal details that would compromise those topics. But in his writings, he does make some very interesting read-between-the-lines statements. He's either "towing the party line," or has a sincere desire to steer us in the right direction in spite of his associations/projects.

On the one hand, he is fairly transparent and suggests that psyops as regards secret technology has been used against us in the ufological field. On the other hand, he continues to be associated with the sort of folk he warns us against.

For those that haven't read it, I suggest his book Forbidden Science II. Rather expensive and hard to find in an original edition, but PDFs are out there. To me, it seems a testament of a man who wants to leave clues for future historians that could lead to those things he's bound by law to keep secret.

Can we have a carrot please, sir, before we venture once more down the rabbit hole...?

One of the most interesting accounts I have heard out of Utah was the account of a witness seeing an orange ring hovering in mid-air releasing white orbs. The sighting happened at night and the witness reported seeing blue sky through the ring.
This indicates strongly to me a wormhole. It is pretty much exactly what I would expect a wormhole to look like.


GUT, I also read somewhere of people seeing orbs precisely like the one you saw.

reply to post by The GUT


To be honest GUT, I am starting to get the feeling that (I believe it was Gortex you said in another thread) Vallee is force fitting data a little. He is losing his objectivity.

In the meantime, I feel as if he has the potential to become a whistle blower later in life.

ETA: I mean, other than money as a motive, what other reason does one have for associating with the very people you often rail against, if not for the old adage of "keeping your enemies closer."?

I know the Gov uses psyop in UFOlogy. Clear evidence in cattle mutilation accounts. It seems the GOV is behind at least some of it. People reporting helicopters outfitted to look like UFOs hoisting cattle into the air with cables.

Originally posted by The GUT
Other than my signature, I don't generally plug my own posts. .....
The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs

Come to think of it, GUT, I believe I might have gotten the recommendation to read "Mirage Men" from that thread. First UFO book I've read in ages.

reply to post by DelMarvel

Not to throw yet another religion into the mix but there was something on my Zen calendar a while back about wise men having the ability to entertain simultaneously conflicting thoughts.

Perhaps you are thinking of Aristotle.

"The mark of an educated mind is the ability to entertain a notion while not accepting it."

ETA: I like using that one when debating over zealous Christians and they hit me with, "so you have studied the bible and you reject it? Why bother?"