The 'Gay' Agenda

Originally posted by AllInMyHead
reply to post by TrueMessiah

 

I am not getting bent out of shape about your previous comment, I apologize if I came across that way. I believe that an open, honest dialog, like this, is exactly what is needed. So thank you. My personal feeling is that, in the eyes of God, my love and devotion for my partner is equally valid as your love for your wife. No more, no less. Does it really make sense to you that God would condemn people for loving each other?

Ok no biggie. Even if God believes that his creations have gone astray so to speak, love still trumps all. Can't really argue with that.

And I don't believe that I "became" gay. My belief is that I was born this way. I am curious to know if you believe that there is a point that you "became" straight? And I ask that question in all sincerity.

I'm not of the belief that a person can be born gay. I've heard reasonable theories about a lack of testosterone being supplied to a male fetus/lack of estrogen supplied to the female fetus as a contributing factor but other than that I'm not really buying it. Personally, due to me being raised in a traditional household where the natural biological process was stressed and taught to me first and foremost, that's the avenue I was led down. Therefore, Ive been straight ever since my reproductive organs started functioning when adolescence kicked in. What a child grows up witnessing and what a child is taught sex wise has a significant impact on the sexual preference of a developing child but that's a entirely different subject I won't touch on right at this moment.

In regards to your mention of the biological functions of men and women, I of course, understand biology. But I hope you at least concede that people more than mere biology. You, I , or anyone, does not know for a fact that God didn't intend to make some people gay.

No prob. I guess I was approaching this from too technical a standpoint by strictly focusing on that one comment you made. However I'm still leaning towards my previous stance.

And I would also hope that you would concede that men and women, together, do a LOT of things God probably didn't intend. Some straight people have anal sex too. For that matter, I know plenty of gay men who have NEVER had anal sex. The sex act doesn't define me as a gay man. A straight man can have sex with another man and that doesn't make him gay and a gay man can have sex with a women and that doesn't make him straight

Yeah you're right men and women do a lot of things but if you ask me, I would say that anal sex (even between opposite sexes) veers from the customary purposes of reproduction. If sex doesn't define being gay, then what does? Attraction? If a straight man has sex that isn't forced with another man then most likely he's gay. If you don't think so then I'm interested in hearing what makes you think it isn't. If a gay man willingly has sex with a woman then he falls into bisexual category.

I am sorry I couldn't give you the "yes or no" answer you were looking for, it just isn't that simple.

That much I could tell being that I'm now 3 paragraphs in. LOL!

However, I will concede that the craigslist reference was somewhat irrelevant after I re-read the thread this morning. Sorry for that, married men who fool around and want their cake and eat too is just one of my pet peeves. However I just want to clarify something related to that and then I won't bring it up again. You said in your previous post " irrelevant due to the fact that I'm not discussing a personal decision", the personal decision here is not their desire to have sex with men. The personal decision was to marry someone without disclosing the fact they were attracted to men, then cheating on their wives and families. (Not all of them, some wives know, but the vast majority don't).

I do have to admit...what you described happening on Craigslist is some foul stuff. Anyway, it wasn't so much what the decision was but the fact that it was a decision generally speaking. Also, it's possible that some of those married men weren't attracted to the same sex initially but developed the attraction later on. Perhaps by being bi-curious.

I know there are many points where we are going to have to agree to disagree, and I am okay with that, as I hope you are too. When people have these types of discussions they can get heated very quickly. Please just know that my intention here is not be rude or crass, only get across my point of view.

There's nothing wrong with having disagreements. If everyone shared the same views, then there would be no diversity as far as independent analytical thought. In that case, a majority of people would only be mere followers. Your views are well respected.

Originally posted by TrueMessiah

 

I'm not of the belief that a person can be born gay. I've heard reasonable theories about a lack of testosterone being supplied to a male fetus/lack of estrogen supplied to the female fetus as a contributing factor but other than that I'm not really buying it. Personally, due to me being raised in a traditional household where the natural biological process was stressed and taught to me first and foremost, that's the avenue I was led down. Therefore, Ive been straight ever since my reproductive organs started functioning when adolescence kicked in. What a child grows up witnessing and what a child is taught sex wise has a significant impact on the sexual preference of a developing child but that's a entirely different subject I won't touch on right at this moment.

Hi TM

I can see by the length of your post and the language you are a reasonably minded person. Based on that I just wanted to weigh in on what you have said above.

Consider this; I am gay (no surprise there if you have read any of my other posts) I too was raised in a household where the natural biological process of reproduction was taught to me. My mother had an absolute paranoia about us kids being exposed to any form of sexuality, whether it be on TV, the radio or even in conversation. So we were only told the basics. We were immersed in the world of animal sexuality, living on a farm so we had plenty of male mates with female cues there.

However, I grew up all the while feeling that I was a little different. My first crush was on a boy and I thought it was quite normal until I realised that other boys were starting to show interest in girls. I then began to question my sexuality and wonder what type of girl I was attracted to - because that was natural of course. It was one Sunday (in church of all places) that I realised that the 'type' of woman I thought I liked was very masculine - there was (a quote possibly lesbian) girl in the congregation and she wore men's clothes and had a male haircut. It was after that I realised that it was all the masculine qualities I was attracted to, as the thought of her naked, well it was not pleasant to me, let's put it that way. I can 100% honestly say with my hand on my heart that I have never ever been even the slightest bit sexually aroused by a female. Even though more than one has got a little agressive with it and tried to 'help me along'

So, yes some of us do grow up gay. If it's not something that happens in the womb, then it is something that happens very early in our childhood as I have no memories about gay anything in my life other than my parents signing the petition against decriminalising homosexuality and being very vocal and very prejudice about it. Back then I was not sexually aware, so I of course went along and I too believed that 'faggots' were sick, twisted and disgusting not realising until a few years later I was one myself.

reply to post by markosity1973


Dear markosity1973,

How very nicely you worded that. Kudos. I have heard so many gay people tell me exactly the same thing you said. I am a straight Christian and preach to gays. LOL. One of them told me how, just like you, they had thought they should be with butch women; but, didn't like the idea of sex with them. I thought you wrote in a very calm and mature way; better than I do sometimes. Maybe, calm and considered voices like yours should be heard more by the straight community. Most of them only know caricatures.

I find that sex between two men is wrong, but sex between two women is awesome.
But then, that is just my opinion.

reply to post by markosity1973

Interesting, although I interpret the narrative more in the sense that you suddenly realized that you had to be attracted to girls to be normal, so you focused on the "butch girl" because she was the closest thing to a man, but yet to no effect.

We didn't have butch girls like that in high school at all.
Sure we had tomboys (all straight from what I hear), and two female PT teachers and drill instructors (we called it "cadets" back then).

The one female instructor taught us Afrikaans in her mini-skirt, with a whistle around her neck.
She was quite a homophobe, and I still hear recent stories of how she would mock guys who sound gay, and pull faces to the rest of the class.
She seems quite straight however.
Her husband died in a motorbike crash and shortly after that she married his even richer brother.
She's not well liked by other staff.

Anyway, I've also never been attracted to a woman, but I once smelled this girl's hair.
She had the longest and thickest blond pigtails.
It smelled so gentle and clean.
It made me feel, well I guess "protective".

When I could finally grow my hair long in college, I was the only death metal hippie who washed and conditioned his hair every day with the shampoo she used.

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
...
Our collective views are engineered by TPTB and children now think being gay is 'cool' or the 'in thing' because of what they are influenced by on TV.

The thread is about how this is affecting those people, who in the past would have not acted on their confused emotions, ultimately realising they are not actually gay anyway once they reach adulthood. Now however, and increasingly in the future, as 'gay' is promoted by media and even increasingly education, we have an issue that is going to be quite important to our society.
...

Uhm yeah... No.

My story is the same as thousands if not millions of others. I grew up in a conservative home with strong religious overtones. My milieu was filled with anti-gay sentiment: School, friends, parents, siblings, church and so on. In my little world gay was very wrong and all gay people were going to burn in hell. There was no Will and Grace or Glee or Modern Family. We (myself included) used derogatory terms for slightly effeminate guys.

So, in short - my little world was straight and tried to program me to be straight. I tried to have relationships with girls, but was never really interested in anything other than holding hands. I constantly suffered from depression and my suicide attempts was numerous. Only when I left home to study I discovered what was really "wrong" with me. I was gay in a straight mold. And only when I accepted my sexuality at the age of 20, did I begin to live. (And it was only several years after that before I had my first sexual experience.) Almost a decade of my life wasted denying who I was and being miserable.

So you see my point is the idea that a teenager can be programmed into a sexuality is absurd. Looking at my own background I can tell you with great assurance that I was born this way. No amount of social programming could get my natural attraction to the same sex "out of me" so to speak.

And to be honest - I wish I had "Glee" (over the top stereotyping that it is) in my teen years, if only to tell me that my feelings were normal, and that it would be tough, but I would get through it... I would have had many fonder memories of my teen years...

Originally posted by mykingdomforthetruth
how are children ¨born gay¨ i looked into this phenonenom a few years ago and discovered recent changes in the way food and drinks are stored has a readable impact on the content of estrogen which is arguably ¨the gay gene¨ tupperware containers, baby bottles the lining inside tins all breakdown into the food and since these changes in food storage has come about over the last 30 years or so there has been a gay explosión

What a load of poop. Can you provide some data to back up these claims? I can provide you a whole lot of data showing that homosexuality has been with us throughout history - in all cultures. From Native Americans to Europeans to Africans to Asians - long before food was being processed. If your theory was correct then everyone would be "female", seeing that your theory doesn't make room for Lesbians...

reply to post by markosity1973

Originally posted by markosity1973

Originally posted by maes2

Answer - recessive Genes.

How is it that both of my parents are brown haired, one with brown eyes and one with green that I have one brother and one sister that are both blonde hair blue eyed?

Recessive genes i.e. If and I stress if homosexuality is found to be genetic it will most likely be a gene that is carried by some straight people but does not show up unless there are 2 recessive genes present i,e one from mum and one from dad. The exact same genetic composition does not replicate every time when two people procreate either.

Which is how my siblings get to have blonde hair and blue eyes while the other 3 of us are brown haired with green eyes and I am the only one who is gay in my family.

edit on 30-6-2013 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)

yes ! consider that some people were homosexual so that they did not involve in heterosexual activities with this assumption then my point is that recessive genes (homosexuality) can not be so widespread as media claim. if homosexualities are so widespread then the reason should be something else. moreover according to evolution hypothesis such useless characteristics should be omitted from the evolution process. but it has not omitted throughout a long history !
environment and genetics both can alter each other. there is no any honest research.

reply to post by Gemwolf

Very well put and illustrated.

It is certainly amazing how SA changed from a very homophobic society in 1994 to gay marriage in 2006.
I'm a bit skeptic on whether legal and political changes really translate into social changes,

I think a lot of these heterosexual anxieties about gay people also have to with gender, and maintaining a consistent gender code.

The 1980's in South Africa were strange in that way.
It was a highly militarized society, with a "cowboys don't cry" norm of masculinity.

But yet, the most popular performer was a man in a dress!
It was tannie (auntie) Evita!
That still seems so inexplicable today.

It seems that even if gay people didn't exist, they might have to be invented by social groups that are so gender-restrictive that they need some other version of themselves to let off steam.

reply to post by Gemwolf


i suppose a good dig around the net using estrogen as a keyword would turf up plenty of proof as for lesbians there is a number of reasons for a girl to go lesbian i know a few myself and they happen to be birds i have nailed myself regularly as a teen (not a gay gene in their bodys) i reckon they turned lesbian out of frustration of being used over and over then disgarded by guys. some girls experiment and decide women are just better at it i know a guy who was turned gay by an older gay man who knew what he was doing in the sack up to that point this guy was fairly straight but lacked experiance with women and clubs , however being born gay like you mentioned i believe is a result of a genetic change estrogen receptors are being switched on by over exposure to estrogen in foods and drinks the early 90´s microwave revolution didn´t help as everything humans ate was cooked in 1 in some kind of plastic container breaking breaking down the containers themselves accelerated exposure,
maybe you wasn´t born gay maybe your mum used to warm your milk up in the microwave as a baby and the bottles broke down exposing you to large doses of estrogen and you grew up feminine as a result convincing yourself its normal ? I realise this is not everyones cup of tea its hard to swallow well harder than estrogen laced baby milk ... sma gay ?

reply to post by mykingdomforthetruth

People don't turn gay or lesbian because of disappointments with the opposite sex, or because of one experience.

Gay people don't own homosexuality and there are many forms, but I'm speaking as an exclusively gay male.

Genetic or not, it is a central part of a gay person's personality.
Change should not be confused with ignoring or willfully suppressing a part of the ever-present personality, as can be temporarily done with religion and some therapies.
Being gay can be traced to a very young age, when gay children will engage in gender non-conformist play, ironically more with the opposite gender.
Although narratives may vary, it has been studied and filmed.

I can't say what effects foods may have, but gay people have been around for ever in history, and were known in all cultures.
Testosterone is actually the corrosive chemical that causes hair-loss.
It also causes men to have a significantly shorter average life-expectancy than women.
If we're getting too much female hormones we should have lovely skin, nails, and male baldness should disappear.
It should also then affect fertility for males across the spectrum, instead of just seeing lazy heterosexual white males (usually) blaming some other group for their lack of procreation.
An unlikely theory so far.

Gay people were treated with hormone therapy until the early 1970s, and despite some horrific physical side-effects (see Alan Turing) it made no difference to their sexual orientation whatsoever.

Neither homosexuality or heterosexuality can be changed with hormones, even if a man can be forced to grow breasts.

Originally posted by mykingdomforthetruth
reply to post by Gemwolf

 

i suppose a good dig around the net using estrogen as a keyword would turf up plenty of proof
...
maybe you wasn´t born gay maybe your mum used to warm your milk up in the microwave as a baby and the bottles broke down exposing you to large doses of estrogen and you grew up feminine as a result convincing yourself its normal ? I realise this is not everyones cup of tea its hard to swallow well harder than estrogen laced baby milk ... sma gay ?

Lazy debater are we?

With the chance of derailing the topic, let's pretend that there is conclusive proof that Phthalate (or other plastics) exposure - especially prenatal and as an infant - causes homosexuality... How do you explain that my twin brother is straight? Not to forget my older brother and younger sister?

And again how do you explain the Egyptian couple Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum, the Sotho motsoalle, Two-Spirit Shamans from the Americas, the writings of Wang Shunu from China, the gay Samurais from Japan, Kathoey from Thailand, Hijra from India, many, many examples from Europe and even from the Middle East (see Assyrian and Persian history) not to forget the well-documented Melanesian culture. All of these hundreds (some thousands) of years before plastic was invented... As a matter of fact the food back then couldn't have been more "organic" (in the modern sense of the word). And yet, history and the many cultures are "littered" with references to homosexuality. And in many of these cultures homosexuals weren't shunned by their society. With Native Americans homosexuals/transsexuals were actually "honored"...

And this brings us the full circle. There is no "gay agenda" (other than equality). Homosexuality is as old as heterosexuality... It's been with us all this time. And I think you'll find that the "fall" of homosexuality in human evolution/history coincides with the rise of certain religions...

On a side note. I would hardly call myself "feminine" as you suggest. As with millions of other gay men - you wouldn't be able to tell that I'm gay unless I told you so. The stereo-typical "queen" is just that - a stereo type.

Originally posted by Gemwolf

On a side note. I would hardly call myself "feminine" as you suggest. As with millions of other gay men - you wouldn't be able to tell that I'm gay unless I told you so. The stereo-typical "queen" is just that - a stereo type.

On that note, I could not agree with you more. I am one of those people who knows how to tear an engine down and put it back together, I am currently rebuilding a caravan to tow behind my SUV, I go fishing, work on the family farm when I go home and have a mad love for tractors (Lord knows why, lol)

No-one can tell if a person is gay just by looking at them - I used to get asked if I am gay all the time when I used to haunt gay pubs and bars

That's why people like I are speaking out. To smash stereotypes and to show that we have no agenda beyond equality and that we are here and we are no threat to the heterosexual population.

Isn't it ironic that the way gays used to be treated, like dirt, is why there were so many in hiding, now the way gays are being treated, like dirt, is the exact reason that we are coming out of the closet and demandng to be treated equally!

It's also ironic that this "gay agenda" that so often gets touted has never been heard of by gays, surely if there was or ever had been an "agenda" the gays would be the first to know!

then there is the government agenda,

Like other married couples, same-sex couples are about to learn that federal benefits for being married might not be all they're cracked up to be.

"In that case, they may have won the court battle but are still stuck in a social structure where the government basically tells them, do not marry or you're going to lose a lot of money," Steuerle said.

online.wsj.com...

reply to post by Gemwolf


i see you have looked... i would explain it like this

people have different tolerances

some people can be hypnotised others cant

ivé met people that scream gay talk like 1 mince like 1 best friends are all girls all that # yet they are straight as can be ... or at least claim they are

i see it like this

most gay men lose their ability to hold their # in later on in life just that thought alone is enough to convince me gay is wrong its allright not being able to make it to the toilet on time when your 70 plus but #ting yourself in your 50´s doesn´t sound right to me

but thats just my personal opinión if gay men were normal i put it to god he designed the sphincter wrong.

reply to post by mykingdomforthetruth


Sorry, but your post isn't very coherent.
From what I can gather you somehow made a jump to anal sex. You're clearly under the wrong impression. I suggest you do some reading up on the percentages of men (both straight and homosexual) that engage in anal sex.

Let's just leave it at that because anal sex is a pretty far jump from the "Gay Agenda".

stick a fork in it i reckon

Originally posted by Gemwolf

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
...
Our collective views are engineered by TPTB and children now think being gay is 'cool' or the 'in thing' because of what they are influenced by on TV.

The thread is about how this is affecting those people, who in the past would have not acted on their confused emotions, ultimately realising they are not actually gay anyway once they reach adulthood. Now however, and increasingly in the future, as 'gay' is promoted by media and even increasingly education, we have an issue that is going to be quite important to our society.
...

Uhm yeah... No.

My story is the same as thousands if not millions of others. I grew up in a conservative home with strong religious overtones. My milieu was filled with anti-gay sentiment: School, friends, parents, siblings, church and so on. In my little world gay was very wrong and all gay people were going to burn in hell. There was no Will and Grace or Glee or Modern Family. We (myself included) used derogatory terms for slightly effeminate guys.

So, in short - my little world was straight and tried to program me to be straight. I tried to have relationships with girls, but was never really interested in anything other than holding hands. I constantly suffered from depression and my suicide attempts was numerous. Only when I left home to study I discovered what was really "wrong" with me. I was gay in a straight mold. And only when I accepted my sexuality at the age of 20, did I begin to live. (And it was only several years after that before I had my first sexual experience.) Almost a decade of my life wasted denying who I was and being miserable.

So you see my point is the idea that a teenager can be programmed into a sexuality is absurd. Looking at my own background I can tell you with great assurance that I was born this way. No amount of social programming could get my natural attraction to the same sex "out of me" so to speak.

And to be honest - I wish I had "Glee" (over the top stereotyping that it is) in my teen years, if only to tell me that my feelings were normal, and that it would be tough, but I would get through it... I would have had many fonder memories of my teen years...

Originally posted by mykingdomforthetruth
how are children ¨born gay¨ i looked into this phenonenom a few years ago and discovered recent changes in the way food and drinks are stored has a readable impact on the content of estrogen which is arguably ¨the gay gene¨ tupperware containers, baby bottles the lining inside tins all breakdown into the food and since these changes in food storage has come about over the last 30 years or so there has been a gay explosión

What a load of poop. Can you provide some data to back up these claims? I can provide you a whole lot of data showing that homosexuality has been with us throughout history - in all cultures. From Native Americans to Europeans to Africans to Asians - long before food was being processed. If your theory was correct then everyone would be "female", seeing that your theory doesn't make room for Lesbians...

edit on 1-7-2013 by Gemwolf because: (no reason given)

I said about 4-5 times now this thread is not about gay people. If you are gay, there is nothing you can do as you say and I agree/take your word for it.

This thread is about how societies views are engineered by media and a very high % of adolescents are not sure about their sexuality until adulthood. Hence we have a real issue and impact on society as young kids who are not actually gay are being affected by the TV shows they watch and music they listen to that makes gay 'look cool' or the 'in thing' etc.

You need to step out of your POV for 5 minutes, this thread is not about gay people.

Originally posted by Wonderer2012
...
I said about 4-5 times now this thread is not about gay people. If you are gay, there is nothing you can do as you say and I agree/take your word for it.

This thread is about how societies views are engineered by media and a very high % of adolescents are not sure about their sexuality until adulthood. Hence we have a real issue and impact on society as young kids who are not actually gay are being affected by the TV shows they watch and music they listen to that makes gay 'look cool' or the 'in thing' etc.

You need to step out of your POV for 5 minutes, this thread is not about gay people.

How is this thread not about gay people? Your title is "The 'Gay' Agenda". You refer to gay people several times in your opening post. And frankly it is an insult to gay people to suggest that a person can be "programmed" to be gay.

That was the whole point of my post. You state that the media sway adolescents into being gay. I used myself as an example that you cannot be swayed to be gay (or vice versa); you are who you are and there's no changing that. What better perspective than that of a gay person?

Being gay is hardly cool. It's quite the opposite. There are nearly 5,000 teen suicides a year - in the US alone. In 2005 alone the total teen suicide number for ages 15-19 was 12,000 worldwide... Suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24 and accounts for 12.2% of the deaths every year in that age group.

And those were the successful suicides. Then there's the further 157,000 self-inflicted hospitalizations for ages 10-24...

30-40% of all LGBT teenagers have tried to commit suicide at least once. LGBT youth are 4 times more likely, and questioning youth are 3 times more likely, to attempt suicide as their straight peers.Suicide attempts by LGB youth and questioning youth are 4 to 6 times more likely to result in injury, poisoning, or overdose that requires treatment from a doctor or nurse, compared to their straight peers.

"LGBT students are three times as likely as non-LGBT students to say that they do not feel safe at school (22% vs. 7%) and 90% of LGBT students (vs. 62% of non-LGBT teens) have been harassed or assaulted during the past year."

Gay kids - even in today's "gay friendly" environment doesn't have it easy. Not even close.

... suicide among lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) youth is comparatively higher than among the general population. LGBT teens and young adults have one of the highest rates of suicide attempts. According to some groups, this is linked to heterocentric cultures and institutionalised homophobia in some cases, including the use of LGBT people as a political wedge issue like in the contemporary efforts to halt legalising same-sex marriages. Depression and drug use among LGBT people have both been shown to increase significantly after new laws that discriminate against gay people are passed. Bullying of LGBT youth has been shown to be a contributing factor in many suicides, even if not all of the attacks have been specifically addressing sexuality or gender. Read more

Sources for statistics: Here or Here or here or here.

So you see if homosexuality was a "choice" why would anyone ever want to choose that life style? You know what I think? I think we need even more gay people in the media, i.e. more exposure to normal gay folks - so we can save the lives of LGBT teenagers .

What we don't need is more wild theories like yours - because you are only adding to the confusion any teenager may experience.

Do yourself a favor and go read up on sites like It Gets Better Project or The Trevor Project.
Instead of telling me not to look at this from MY point of view, YOU should actually put yourself in the shoes of one of these "confused adolescents" and rethink your theory.

Originally posted by Gemwolf

Being gay is hardly cool. There are nearly 5,000 teen suicides a year - in the US alone. In 2005 alone the total teen suicide number for ages 15-19 was 12,000... Suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24 and accounts for 12.2% of the deaths every year in that age group.

And those were the successful suicides. Then there's the further 157,000 self-inflicted hospitalizations for ages 10-24...

I would further add to this that during my 5 years in a highschool of 500 students in rural NZ, there were 2 succesful suicides because of being gay that I know of and I was a third who was saved by very determined nurses in hospital. There were 3 other deaths due to accidents, so 40% of the deaths at my school were because of suicide and more specifically because of sexuality.

No-one thought gay was cool, exciting, hip or any other sort of enticing. 90% of the students grew up on farms in a very masculine area where 'pansies', 'faggots' and 'fairies' were terms used by men on one another to start bar brawls.

Despite all of this, and the fact that I have lost touch with most people from my highschool, I personally know of 5 other gay people to come out of that misery pit. None of us came out at school for fear of having the living day lights beaten out of us. My school was actually named as one of the top 5 for bullying problems in the nation and had the second highest teen pregnancy rate in the counrty to boot. So you can definitely rule out any form of influential or manipulating influence on the entire school.

So I am afraid that suggesting to us that we are influenced into our sexuality is blind ingnorance at best.