Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

Gradually, it dawned on me that there was really only one story here, being told and retold in all sorts of different settings, languages, colorings, times, names, and costumes. I wondered whether I was crazy to think this way, or just the only person to ever make these connections. To my relief, I eventually discovered that I was neither.

Stories of great debate in the bible are just Bits And Pieces passed down through the ages, from stories passed down or taken from tellers of stories etc...(Noah's flood is one example)

Some stories are changed to fit the current culture. Some stories get all screwed up, like that game you play by passing a phrase from person to person...after it gets to the hundredth person its completely different

Read this stuff here (in the link) by this guy, he studied myths and told it like it is...its nothing magical or from gods, its just stories from mankind since they started telling stories.. its that simple.

oh edit to link markcz.com...

I usually stay away from religion threads (they can be impossible!)
It's to bad people take these stories ( to SERIOUSLY) and cause great evil.

Originally posted by signalfire
There is NO logic. It's insanity codified into dogma. Since both the god and the son supposedly knew what Act III was going to be all along, and babies are considered to be sinners-in-waiting, the whole thing is dismally evil. What kind of god produces a child only to have that child murdered as some kind of blood sacrifice for the ages?

How about we stop lying to children and ourselves and start trying to fathom the universe by telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? That includes the government to the people.

Well, so much more is going on in Creation than those people can allow themselves to believe.

Even this "God" of the Christians is afraid of its own shadow, whatever it is, it surely is not limitless and all powerful but is controlled by rules and laws of a far larger system than it can even fathom.

In all reality, what is going on here has NOTHING to do with ascension of any sort ! And never did, this place is a creation to attempt to repair the billions of experiments gone wrong in all dimensions.

I can honestly say that the "Creator" has absolutely nothing to do with anything going on in this entire Plane of the Universe, but is has been created by other interesting beings of great power, and has consistently gotten bigger, akin to the garbage that is mirrored here on earth.

Many of these beings mean well, but when come down to it, are all just trying to create a "Bigger God".

P.S. the stargates will not be opened for you fearful ones who claim to be in any religion seekers of Joy.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by TheIceQueen

 

I don't agree with that whatsoever. God wanted a creature that would freely choose to love and obey Him out of it's free will. The secondary consequence of that is the fact that some creatures would reject that and rebel from Him. God didn't want robots. I would do the same if I were God, create a being the had the choice to love or rebel.

You cannot force or program love.

I beg to differ, he wants robots that CHOOSE to be robots, hence what I am saying is this is not the Creator you think it is, but a Creator who has far different agendas than you can stomach.

Then again the scriptures you adhere to are cleverly written, and many agents have formed the message to fit just what you need, in order to harvest you, and such a harvest it will be.

As revelations says, the harvest is now ripe.

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by sparky31

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
The Bible also says that the message of the cross is "foolishness" to most people.

it is to me,jesus died for our sins?we,ve been doing it ever since so where is he now?

Not sure what you're asking, I'm sorry.

well he died for our sins........it happened before.during and after he died so it didn,t work so i,m asking where is he now?if thats the theory then he died for nothing so whys god not bothered for thousands of years to try something else? is it because it may just not be true?i don,t know but lets fling that out there and see what people think.

edit on 2013 by sparky31 because: (no reason given)

You have to realize that some people's DNA has been specifically coded to run the programs they need to accomplish certain missions without anyone getting suspicious.

They actually have a built in need to believe that all of this is some Great Plan that has only the best of intentions, and despite admitting they know nothing of this "God's" ways, they then claim that they do know that these beliefs will include them in some sort of awesomeness later on, all the while avoiding a terrible painful empty existence that has been created by some other being, because it hates you for your freedoms.

Something indeed weird is going on here, and every effort is being made to categorize it as a fight between good and evil, when it really is a much longer reaching problem...

Only the fear they have, disguised as faith and joy keeps there already badly damaged DNA from completely collapsing, there soul matrix from imploding, so they carry on with the mission that has been futile for eons already.

Luckily, something is finally being done about it, just none of it will match the glories they so badly strive for.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


they didn't eat an apple. it says fruit but it comes from the word pĕriy which can also be translated as offspring. does that mean they ate offspring? no, it means the tree of knowledge was about creating offspring -- i.e., procreation. "adam knew his wife and she begat." to know was to have sex. that's what knowledge was. might as well have called it the tree of procreation. i mean consider the surrounding text. they would be able to be like "god" creating life, good and evil. it's right in the text

enlil didn't want the adam creating offspring. new adam were cloned/copied from originals so the population growth could be controlled. i dunno what the originals were other than to say i think the egyptian atum was the same thing as the progenitors of the adam (they were named after their dna donors methinks. (atum=plural word same as adam). at this point, they were not homo sapiens. it's not till they receive the procreative addition, mammalian in nature, that they become homo sapiens.

atum, father of creation

reply to post by adjensen


The quote I provided from Origen points toward him believing in some type of reincarnation. He says that bodies arise from time to time, clearly pointing to reincarnation.

He even says this:

By some inclination toward evil, certain spirit souls come into bodies, first of men; then, due to their association with the irrational passions after the allotted span of human life, they are changed into beasts, from which they sink to the level of plants. From this condition they rise again through the same stages and are restored to their heavenly place.

Source

If that's not reincarnation then I don't know what is.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Read Law of One, aka The Ra Material.

Is that also related to zero point energy?
(see ZERO POINT ENERGY)

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword

 

I'm not behaving difficultly, the link is already on the last page.


And yes, Origen is discussing reincarnation. Criticizing Clesus's position affirming the doctrine.

edit on 30-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You'd have to have some fairly convoluted logic to deduce that from those quotes..

Read the title itself, "Contra Clesus", and the opening paragraph.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


Context = Logic

Bible = Genesis to Revelation = One Book

Adam/Eve (made pure in the beginning) = The Fall (into sin)
Jesus Death & Resurrection = Saving of mankind (raised out of sin to Life)

The Fall, sin, death = faith in the devil = Knowledge
Enternal Life = faith in Jesus = Faith

No one, not even the angels or the devil knows how this works.

Christianity is the ONLY religion in history that says you are already saved by GRACE whether you know it or not, and not by any works or acts of mankind. There is no proof of course, and so Christians have to live by faith in Jesus that this is so. That is very hard for other people accept and to live by, because KNOWLEDGE and PROOF is required.

Continue to chase the wind.
Let me know when you find all the answers.

In the meantime, maybe read the Bible some more. My advice, read it as though you are reading a book of fiction, so you can understand and appreciate what is trying to say first without the logical conflicts. Then you can judge and discard it anyway you like. (Just like watching superman, or batman etc...) We don't chastise children who believe in fairies, sponge bob, etc... Why frown upon Christians for their faith.

I am not saying it is the truth or that I am even Christian. I am just saying... can't hurt to read the Bible.

I guarantee you will not find your answers here on ATS, interesting and stimulating as it may be.

This is actually a very good question you raised. It is the HEART of the Christian DOCTRINE that most people do not really understand at all. But faith is like that. You don't need to know.

Good luck

the fall narrative is about when we become procreators.
that's it. the reference to the eve having pain in childbirth is because they had become procreators. before that they were copied/cloned somehow, pain-free.

sin=the moon god, son of enlil.

reply to post by TheIceQueen

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I wonder where you hear this being said.
If it is by televangelists, chances are it is coming from a preacher who is a dispensationalist who believes in the rapture.
They need a neat explanation of salvation to fit in with the idea of an impending rapture that can happen any second.
What this version of salvation that you are talking about does is to tell people that normally, becoming righteous enough on you own takes a lifetime, and because of the rapture, you don't have a lifetime, so rather than being righteous, they let themselves be satisfied with being "righteous sinners", meaning they haven't exactly become righteous, but they can be forgiven by claiming that Jesus' blood pays for all their sin, then they can go to heaven anyway, and become really righteous later.

reply to post by TheIceQueen



Two points here:

1) The idea of sacrafice comes out of the Old Testament and Jewish traditions. All good Jews made a sacrafice in the temple at the designated times. This is just the tradition of the local society.

2) This idea that 'Jesus died for our sins' is, in my opinion, horribly misinterpreted. What I have seen is this 'wish' both personal and institutional, that because of this sacrafice, we are washed clean of all responsiblity for our 'sins'.

I read it a different way, allowing for the 'sacrafice' being an important symbol in Jewish life in that time, I see it as providing divine forgiveness. Now forgiveness in this meaning doesn't mean that one is not responsible for ones actions. The Bible itself speaks to this 'karmic' law (and reincarnation too) in phrases about "sowing and reaping" "the sins of the fathers", etc.

Thereby you may be forgiven your error but you still have to pay for it in this life or the next. There is no get out of jail free card that Christians seem to so desparately cling to as they continue in error and ignorance (not all certainly - but many).

I have a great deal of difficulty with the irrationality of fundamentalist Christianity as well. There are some great, turn-of-the-20th-century, esoteric, new-thought Christian writers that expound on these very problems. Emmett Fox, Ernest Holmes, even Rudlof Steiner in his own way.

newthoughtlibrary.com...

On an interesting side note - out of this movement came two streams of practise that are quite influential today. One is 'The Family' (truly scary Christian power brokers) and on the other had Alcoholics Anonymous. I'm not entirely certain what name 'The Family' is going by now (they work in the shadows) but they sponser the yearly national prayer breakfast in Washington DC. There is a good book on the subject by Jeff Sharlet if you are interested called "The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power"

The point being that meaning is very subjective and it behooves us to make up our own minds about matters and not just follow blindly the dictates of those in authority. As the Buddha says "

"Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances."

"Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion."

"Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good."

- The Buddha

There is some dispute as to the exact phasing of the above paraphrase.

reply to post by windword

Did Jesus have to die first, before he could enter Hades? How come the devil and sin are still alive and well?

Jesus being murdered testified to the real nature of the people who were showing themselves to the world as the example of holiness. That was the "prince of this world", the people who claimed themselves to be the Messiah, the priests and Pharisees of Judea in the time of Christ.
Those practices that they taught that was to make people righteous were worthless, and was replaced by what was taught by Jesus, which is the worth of every person, being all made in the image of God.
I think that this type of preaching that the OP is talking about is the wish for some people to go back to that old system, but they make a new twist and make it out as if their believing in Jesus is vicariously offering a sacrifice to God, making them really no better or righteous than the people and system that was judged at Jesus' crucifixion for the evil that they really were.

reply to post by ElOmen

I don't get why some religious people idolize the crucified jesus instead of just a normal looking jesus.
Can someone help shed some light on this?

They wish to hold it up as a bloody sacrifice to appease an angry god.
Of course we can not offer Jesus to God, since it was God who offered Jesus to us, to reconcile us to Him, by us looking on Jesus, as wretched as he was, killed as a common criminal on a cross, who was raised from the dead and taken up to heaven.
Saying all of that, I have to admit that it isn't the picture but how one thinks about it that matters.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What evidence is there that Jesus died for the sins of the world?

The idea (or meme) that Jesus died for our sins has been accepted as symbolic truth for 2000 years. The question is where did this idea get started? My answer: the Book of Hebrews. At least that was the 1st written "authority" that made this claim.

The Greek philosophers developed their “God meme” independent of the Jewish idea. Socrates clearly understood the dilemma involved with a Holy and just God forgiving sin without eternal consequence. As another post noted, he once remarked, ”It may be that the deity can forgive sins but I do not see how.”

Socrates knew well enough for a perfectly just and righteous God to forgive sin without eternal consequence it would deny His own nature of justice and a righteous God could never deny Himself or His own nature.

The new Christian meme solved this quandary.

The author of Hebrews make the case that Jesus' death matched the prophetic hallmarks of a Passover lamb. Particularly the one sacrificed during the advent of the 10th plague in Egypt whose blood had to coat the posts and lintel of Hebrew homes, symbolizing Christ’s blood being on the doors of our hearts. Like the Passover lamb he had to be without blemish (sinless) and his bones could not be broken. Like the High Priest would do when the sacrifice was complete, Jesus was said to yelled out “It is finished.”

The author of Hebrews is brilliant. The problem was this: there was no man to intercede in heaven, so God had to become our intercessor Himself. God had to become flesh and “tabernacle” among us, and then He would return to heaven as our High Priest to finish the job once and for all time. According to the earliest Christian theology, this was the logical reason that Jesus came to Earth. By using details from the history of the Jewish religion and mixing them with this idea that Jesus died for the sin/debts of mankind, the outcome was that the Kingdom of God he preached had indeed come. Jesus was our new High Priest now seating at the high hand of the Father as his Holy Spirit dwelt in the hearts of every believer.

As brilliant as this new theology was, there was one problem. Those disciples in Jerusalem who followed Jesus didn't get it. After Jesus died, they followed his legalistic brother “James the Righteous” who declared himself the new High Priest of Israel and modeled the Jerusalem church after the Jewish Sanhedrin. This was the first “false authority” of the new Christian religion. Over the centuries many more priesthoods were set-up to usurp the power of the High Priest in Heaven. These religious hierarchical structure assume they had authority over all men on Earth, including Kings. Soon these ecclesiastical societies become political structures and their undue influence endures to this day.

Now I repeat the Buddha quote someone else used earlier:

Where you believe in Jesus or not, this quote from Buddha seem fitting:

“Don’t blindly believe what I say. Don’t believe me because others convince you of my words. Don’t believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don’t rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don’t infer or be deceived by appearances.”

“Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion.”

“Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good.”

reply to post by TheIceQueen

Err, okay.. EVEN BETTER. So, let me rephrase part of my initial question.. Why did god feel the need/desire to send his son to earth to be betrayed, tortured, and then crucified in order to a: forgive us for our sins b: "thwart the devil" c: "release those who were in hades/ (actually the name of one of greek mythology's 'gods' and where he ruled) "shoals"(?)/paradise ?

The simple answer is He didn't have to.
God doesn't have to do anything, but of course then if He didn't do anything, then He would't really qualify as being a god.
What God was trying to do was to rally the people by allowing them to see that it was worth fighting against the enemy, which is evil in the world. For the forces of good to throw themselves against the ranks of the forces of evil in the great cosmic battle for the sake of humanity.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by adjensen

 

The quote I provided from Origen points toward him believing in some type of reincarnation. He says that bodies arise from time to time, clearly pointing to reincarnation.

He even says this:

By some inclination toward evil, certain spirit souls come into bodies, first of men; then, due to their association with the irrational passions after the allotted span of human life, they are changed into beasts, from which they sink to the level of plants. From this condition they rise again through the same stages and are restored to their heavenly place.

Source

If that's not reincarnation then I don't know what is.

That text does not appear in the actual writings of Origen. Google "beasts, from which they sink to the level of plants" and you'll see that it appears on a bunch of reincarnation promotion pages and Hare Krishna crap, but not the works of Origen. That tells me that it was either an outright fabrication, or an intentional mistranslation, because the actual writings of Origen are against reincarnation.

But, again, you won't care, because your incorrect opinion is more important to you than the facts.

reply to post by TheIceQueen

. . . if one with no knowledge of christianity were to go into a catholic's house and see all of the jesus on the cross/death memorabilia they would probably think that they were in the home of some sort of s & m person or something..

Does it ever make you think that whoever did that to the man on the cross were bad people, and I don't mean the people making the crucifixes, but the people who murdered the real person who never did anything bad but loved everyone?
That should be how those things should be seen, in my opinion. That sacrificing anyone "for the sake of the many" is not a good or honorable thing.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Bible says that God the Father placed all our sin on His Son and He died for all our sin. So the Father punished the Son for all our sin. All throughout scripture God does things that don't make sense to us, but it says His ways are not our ways.

The Bible doesn't say any of that, sorry, I think that you just heard that from a preacher on a YouTube video and never checked the Bible to see if it really said that.

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

What's "no logical" ? that someone else paid your debt ? that someone else took your punishment ? that he died in your place ? out of love for you ! that's "no logical" ? then you don't know what true love is !