Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

OK people;this is the only Christian question I will answer or reply to.

1) during the old testament times the Hebrews had to offer a lamb up to god on the alter for their sins.
2) Jesus was sent into the world with the free will to either say I will do it or I wont.
3) Jesus wad not god,but the full likeness of god;As he stated in the new testament "He who has seen me has seen the father.It was because Jesus was the full likeness of the father (was IS) .people will argue that because 1st John seems to speak of Jesus as god.but not so,And I have no intentions of arguing any of these points.
4) take notice to Jesus last prayer in the garden before he was taken ( "Father,If it were possible,remove this cup from me;But never the less not my will be done but yours") Jesus was like any other being that has lived on this planet,he was scared,like any other being would be knowing his time has come.but he loved god so much he was obedient to him even to his death.(So ladies and gentlemen,what will you say at judgement time?"I couldn’t do it god";lol yeah right,after what Jesus did I don't think any excuse will do.) So Jesus is not god(or he would be praying to him self.)
5) In all actuality Jesus died in obedience to god will,not man.He loved god so so much he would lay down his life in accordance with gods will.and as Jesus had done so,anyone who takes this into consideration and believes it to be true follows the ways of his only begotten son,will live again in paradise.
6)and yes jesus had to come to earth live as a man die as a man all to show his obedience and love for god.He set an example for all man to foll.he has shown us the way to heaven,and set a prime example of how to get in.
there is hours and hours of arguments that could be made,but in the end it is up to every individual to decide for himself.After all you came into the world alone,you will decide alone,you will die alone.you have to decide if these things are real and true.meditate on the words written in thie book if your truly interested ask for knowledge.fast.pray.be diligent.and you'll find your answers.


goodbye.

IceQueen, it would be a hard time trying to make sense of organised religious documents of any kind. The bible stories were not literal, they are still not literal and they never will have been literal. That is the biggest issue between people who see the world for what it is and people who try to read the world.

I beg some people to look at the world around them, the life forms and the comple interactions of matter. After doing so, can you still believe that the events of the bible are factual?

reply to post by TheIceQueen


This is being done, all the time ... we are curcifying people, even today.

Jesus, is not about forgiving your sins, it's a social issue. That you are to accept, that Jesus was sacrificed for the greater good of the people. If you can accept, that the ultimate lamb, the ultimate inocent is to be sacrificed for the greater good of the people. Then anyone else, being sacrificed is something you will accept without question.

Take Hitler, for example ... bad guy, real mean son of a biatch. He alone, murdered millions and millions ... no, he didn't. He *may* have given the order, but he didn't pull the trigger. The same applies for all the others, that we execute for such crimes. None of them, could have performed the crime without the aid of the common man. The people ... but, the people "hang" Hitler, Gaddafi, George Bush, etc., for the crime ... to replenish themselves. "I just followed orders" ... but the fact of the matter, these guys didn't push the trigger ... the common soldier did.

So, if we are to believe Nietsche ... we Killed God, and brutally murdered his Son, and the raise our children in the aftermath, that this was a good thing. And we make them drink of Jesus blood, and eat of his flesh ... so that they can become a part of society.

Putting it in another way, it's to make you become a part of the crime.

The ethereal ocean is awareness. its first creation in its grand supreme intellect is time and space. That which is prior to the big bang is known as The Absolute State. It is Supreme Nirvana. Nothing exist there and very few beings have entered the rarified space and then transcended all of the manifest universe to merge themselves back with their true SELF. The Few Beings that I know have entered this space and then transcended time & space are Lord Aarioc ( Jesus Christ) Lord Siddartha Gautama ( The Buddha), Dr. David R. Hawkins, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, Sri Yuketeshwar Giri, Siddarmehswar Maharaj. Since our DNA is connected with them the sacrifice they made in sacrificing their egos allows us to have access to this same point in time space through mediation we know that there is a unicity in all sentient beings. We know that Love lets us know that we are everything and everyone that has ever existed in time space.

So you yourself were sacrificed on that cross. The first sin of mankind was that he saw himself as an individual due to the illusion of separation because of the creation of time and space. Once this illusion is properly understood because one sees rightly that one is the source of consciousness. My guru would say this " God may exist but only if their an I to perceive him, the I creates God." We are aware.

Do I have to prove to you that you know you know you exist? No, it is self evident. This knowingness within us is awareness. This awareness is all pervading. Awareness imagines consciousness to be. consciousness is transitory and only has a lifespan of 100 billion trillion years. So that means all the universe that can be created will eventually die. The cosmos and creation itself are not infinite but YOU are. You are immortal and innately you know this. Deep within you, You know this. Why? The same awareness that is in you is in Lord Krishna, Lord Buddha, Lord Jesus and also in the maggots that consumed them at the end of their physical bodies. What they know my guru knows experientially. That You and God are One. It is the Ego that stands in the way between You and knowing who you truly are and entering Nirvana. The cruxifiction is part of the play of the cosmos where thus one being can copy can another as an example. We are all Kings and Queens on this Earth who represent the unmanifest King (i.e God) but the sacrfice of the Ego is one King bowing to the Greater King and this is personfied through the Cruxifiction.

reply to post by windword


It is ironic that you accuse me of "intellectual snobbery" because I note that you don't understand historical methodology, and then you go on to prove the point.

I did not say that there is non-Christian testimony to the claims made in the Bible, I said that there is non-Christian testimony to the historical existence of the person of Jesus Christ, in the time he is said to have lived, in the place he is said to have lived and whose teachings gave birth to the religion of Christianity. If one uses historical research methodologies to "work back" from the state of the church in, say, 125AD, it is consistent with the claims of the existence of an historical person named Jesus and the activities and beliefs that are established in the New Testament.

That is the accepted position of almost every academic historian who has studied Christianity, apart from Richard Carrier, whom, as I said earlier, is an idiot. That he has an agenda and a career to further, and this is the particular bandwagon that he's chosen to latch onto, does not make him any less of one.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Origen didn't believe in, or teach, reincarnation, and you're in the wrong thread.

reply to post by TheIceQueen

Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

He didn't create sin, man did. The word " sin" means "wrong doing". You yourself cannot pay for the evil things you do, say, or create. Once you send it out you cannot take it back, it echoes in eternity. For instance, you gossip about someone behind their back and they either hear you talk smack about them or it gets back to them, the hurt and pain you have dealt them you cannot undo, once it is done nothing will remove it from their minds, and it in turn causes them anger and resentment and maybe even to hate you, so you have then caused them to sin, because hatred and anger are wrong.

Since you cannot pay for what you have done and survive the reaping of your own actions, "for the wages of sin is death", then the only one who can pay your debt is the Lord Jesus, since you have entered into "debt" (monetary terms ftw) and have nothing for which to offer him that would suffice, you then must place yourself under him and make him your Master and he then pays your debt with his own blood/soul.

The jews believe that your soul is in your blood, so that when Christ shed his blood to cover you, he was really covering you with his soul and removing you from the equation, then God the Father, only sees his own Light (Christ his Glory revealed) and is blinded to your sin by his own Glory. Then Jesus forgives that sin and it is as if you never sinned.

Baruch Habah

Originally posted by Dystopiaphiliac
IceQueen, it would be a hard time trying to make sense of organised religious documents of any kind. The bible stories were not literal, they are still not literal and they never will have been literal. That is the biggest issue between people who see the world for what it is and people who try to read the world.

I beg some people to look at the world around them, the life forms and the comple interactions of matter. After doing so, can you still believe that the events of the bible are factual?

Actually, the Holy Scriptures are a mixed bag. Some literal, some allegorical, some euphemism and without God's help you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of deciphering which one is which. That's why to nonbelievers without his Holy Spirit, it makes no sense to you and you are incapable of having any understanding. This is because the book is not meant for unbelievers, in the context it was written it was for the believers excepting the Gospel which is the ministry to nonbelievers, the "good news" that all people can have salvation in Christ Jesus. The scriptures are for those who accept the terms, not for those who do not.

The events in the bible are factual and much can be proved with archaeology, and there is a surprising amount of evidence hiding in Israel, except the secular academia refuses to make these finds known, which ties into the greater spiritual war going on about us but i'm not going to bother getting into that, for it is for another thread perhaps.

to answer the question, you have to start at the "beginning"

were you aware there are books/writings that predate the bible, that also contain similar stories and appear to be talking about the same things?

the book of genesis is highly scientific and historical. the serpent in the garden is not a snake, he's a sorcerer. before you freak out and think, oh a witch, realize that sorcery is medicine, pharmacopeia. the symbol is the caduceus and also the rod of asclepius.



this medical symbol is what moses raised in the desert to protect the people of the exodus from poisoning. jesus referred to himself as the serpent moses raised on the staff to bring healing to the people. these ideas are not just random bits of information tossed into a word salad, they are extremely important.

in fact, even information on the rod of asclepius / caduceus is not entirely revealing, as inevitably, the actual reference to the serpent is this



any questions so far? i will wait to see if you're even interested before i continue

reply to post by TheIceQueen

Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

To understand the logic, you have to answer the following question : Would you sacrifice your life, to save anothers man life ?

Peace

I totally agree with your question. Now, if Jesus was Obi Wan Kenobi and said "You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" and self-sacrificed himself on purpose, then maybe, just maybe we might have something here.

But it didn't happen that way. Jesus was double crossed (pun not intended) dragged off and stuck in the scorching sun and left to die. Besides, it still wouldn't correlate to dying = everyone forgiven. There is no logic there. Before christianity, lambs would have to be slaughtered every once in awhile and have their blood spilled on the alter. Some kind of Pagan ritual. It was believed that god liked this and would wipe away any sin debts people had incurred. But Jesus' blood was a replacement for the lamb slaughters.

So I guess we need to ask, why would lamb blood have anything to do with wiping away people's sin debts in the first place? An all mighty being who has the power to create the universe and all of its toys needs sacrificial offerings and a church to remind him/her/it of the power it holds? Riiiiiiight ok. I think God is beyond that and couldn't care less about our puny insignificant ridiculous rituals because in the grand scheme of things, blood spilled vs the entire cosmos is pretty much chump change.

reply to post by Seed76


Hold on. Jesus never volunteered remember.

The dark side has cookies.

So theological understanding of the Jesus story is really immaterial.

This is the same book that begins with a talking snake and ends with a four headed monster.

You expect logic?

reply to post by undo


I, for one, am interested. Please continue.

Jesus was put here not just to die for mans original sin but to start Christianity!
We were not created with original sin, we gained it in the garden of Eden by taking from
the tree of knowledge!
God did not send the Christ here to die he sent him here cause he loves us and wants us
to understand the wrongs that we do but sometimes the only way one can learn is through error!
You keep asking why God had the need or desire to send Christ here to die but I believe the need
was not Gods but mans!

Even if Christ were not to be God incarnate he died because of the threat he was to organized religious
leaders! That in and of its self was a brave deed that I will always respect! Reminds me of what we are up against today! Though there are a lot more of us here today, I don't see anyone risking their life and the prospects of being tortured for several days to show us the error of our ways! Praise him!

We can not always understand all the reasons beyond what we perceive but this is no reason to deny those that can!

reply to post by adjensen

I did not say that there is non-Christian testimony to the claims made in the Bible, I said that there is non-Christian testimony to the historical existence of the person of Jesus Christ,

"Christ" was a conceptual entity that existed in theory and ritual, long before the advent of Jesus, and was a title claimed by many. And, by the way, Jesus' last name wasn't Christ! Jesus Christ never existed!

That is the accepted position of almost every academic historian who has studied Christianity, apart from Richard Carrier, whom, as I said earlier, is an idiot. That he has an agenda and a career to further, and this is the particular bandwagon that he's chosen to latch onto, does not make him any less of one.

There you go again! It's intellectually dishonest to generalize and reject other's scholarship, based on the loudest and, provenly, the most suppressive organization's dictated opposition, desperately clinging to false facts.

Anyone who listen's to Richard Carrier speak, or reads his writings and commentaries, can easily see that the man is far from being an idiot. Old hat! Personal insults and mockery is basically all you've got.

reply to post by TheIceQueen



Christians will tell you Jesus took your punishment and everyones sin on the cross, so that you could be reconciled back to God. They will also tell you that Jesus is God; which essentially equates to God taking his own punishment, that he himself, was going to bring upon us. Which is a completely ridiculous notion.

God is a God of love, and doesn’t work that way IMO.

In my view, men have got this aspect of God, completely wrong, due too many factors. Strange thing is, I believe Jesus did “die for my sins” but just not in the way that standard Christianity teaches.

Matthew 20:28:
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

IMO Jesus does give his life as a Ransom for many, but what is left open to interpretation in the above verse, is the manner in which Jesus gives his life for many.

Here’s an analogy, to help try and explain my own perspective…

***

Imagine a soldier, who has been given a mission to deliver a message. The message must be delivered to an army who are in danger, because an enemy is fast approaching them. Unfortunately the soldier is going to have to get past the enemy in order to deliver that message to the captain of the army. The soldier knows that it is a risky mission, and that he might get killed (from Jesus/God perspective, God knew ahead of time, that Jesus would be killed by men) in the process.

The soldier does his best to deliver his message but along his journey he gets shot a few times and is bleeding heavily. He finally makes it to the camp and crawls into the captains headquarters. The soldier reaches into his pocket and hands an envelope to the captain, which contains the coordinates of the enemies position and details of what the captain must do to avoid the enemy. After he has handed over the message, the soldier because he has lost too much blood, dies from his wounds.

***

Now I would say that the solder gave his life for those men, but it is not his death/blood that saves them… it’s the message that he died to bring, that saves them.

I see Jesus sacrifice, in a similar way to my analogy above. He comes to testify to the truth, knowing that men would reject it, and have him killed for doing so. It’s not a blood sacrifice for all sins, to save you from a tyrannical God IMO, but a modern day version of the word “sacrifice”

It’s Jesus life and teachings, that really saves a person. Why do I say this…well first of all, Jesus teaches us about repentance, which he sees as an important thing in the eyes of God. He also teaches us about how to receive the Holy Spirit, which helps a person enter into a relationship with God; and Jesus considers this to be very important part in becoming “saved.” Jesus brings a greater understanding about the commandments given by God, and shows why it’s important to keep them etc…

The other key aspect to all this, is that Jesus resurrection is actually a key part of his message! Jesus also knew that the power of his resurrection, is the only thing, that would keep his message alive. Which is why I believe Jesus said “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends”…

When you look at in the way I have described above, the focus gets shifted from Jesus death and judgment by God, and more towards his life message, and how you can find salvation, through it, and by following it


- JC

reply to post by adjensen


Origen taught about the pre-existence of souls and that souls changed bodies with each incarnation.

If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it, then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrawise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing.

Sounds a lot like reincarnation to me.

Also, thanks for pointing out that I got my threads confused. I edited my post shortly after I made it to point that out myself, so thanks for reiterating it in case others missed it.

I guess the only question I have to ask is why would you ask for logic when discussing myths? That'd be like pointing out that humans can't shoot lightning from their hands when discussing Zeus.