Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

reply to post by Rex282

hard as hell number to get past even though "the many" are stuck on 1+2=3.

I was starting to get scared there, for a bit. Self doubt was mounting.

In my religion it is believed that 2+3=5. With great trepidation and fear, did I check the sources:

The 2 is found by adding the two numbers before it (1+1)
Similarly, the 3 is found by adding the two numbers before it (1+2),
And the 5 is (2+3),
Fibonacci Sequence

Wow! My religion is correct after all!

I really am in a silly mood today!

But seriously, my religion does teach me that 2+3=5. It's one of the fundamentals. I haven't gotten much further along than that, But at least it is further along than 1+2=3.



I didn't literally become a waiter, but if we take that as allegory, then we can understand.

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.

The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.

I haven't asked anything, actually. haha.

Speak for yourself man, religion makes you blind and deaf. And in that sense, youre right. I cannot teach a person blinded by faith, or deafened by lies how to see the truth or hear reason.

I don't know if you've noticed, but logic as all ANYONE has. Anything else is just chaos, and what could it possibly contribute to order? If your religion is such an illogical one, then why don't you do the opposite of what it preaches? Since, you know, logic is all we mere peasants have, you must be so far above logic that you obviously know that the illogical thing to do would be to act chaotically and randomly? Yet you do not. You follow your doctrine as logically laid before you, just like everyone else. So don't tell me logic is all I have. It's all you have too brother.

You are wrong.

You are blind and deaf.

Nuh uh. You are.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Rex282

hard as hell number to get past even though "the many" are stuck on 1+2=3.

I was starting to get scared there, for a bit. Self doubt was mounting.

In my religion it is believed that 2+3=5. With great trepidation and fear, did I check the sources:

The 2 is found by adding the two numbers before it (1+1)
Similarly, the 3 is found by adding the two numbers before it (1+2),
And the 5 is (2+3),
Fibonacci Sequence

Wow! My religion is correct after all!

I really am in a silly mood today!

But seriously, my religion does teach me that 2+3=5. It's one of the fundamentals. I haven't gotten much further along than that, But at least it is further along than 1+2=3.....

I didn't literally become a waiter, but if we take that as allegory, then we can understand.

I understand completely Garconbob....5 is the loneliness number.One day you'll be able to use your functional 5th finger to pick your nose and mind with then it's .... GULP on to..the more "difficult" equations... but ...you can do it just THINK THINK THINK!! like Winny The Pooh bear!

5+8=.........uh 10 5/8?????...no,no..try again carry the 1...... a hunderd eleventy???..closer.....lets try something more "simple".I know rocket surgery isn't allowed at ATS( it leaves an awful stain on a tin foil hat!!) but I leave you with this to ponder in the pool of saliva filling your inny navel.

9 is to none as ____ is to one......

please do not use your calculator as this counts towards your final grade.

So...Jesus died for all our sins, but we can only be absolved of them if we believe in him? I grew up in Sunday school and that's always been my understanding.

That makes no sense though. To me that says two ridiculous things. One, that "believers" have a free pass to sin. And Two, that God (or whoever mans the gate) has a way of knowing who believes and who doesn't...as of course a non-believer would lie to get into heaven.

It's all absurd of course, but it's fun to theorize on the preposterous.

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.

The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.

I haven't asked anything, actually. haha.

Speak for yourself man, religion makes you blind and deaf. And in that sense, youre right. I cannot teach a person blinded by faith, or deafened by lies how to see the truth or hear reason.

I don't know if you've noticed, but logic as all ANYONE has. Anything else is just chaos, and what could it possibly contribute to order? If your religion is such an illogical one, then why don't you do the opposite of what it preaches? Since, you know, logic is all we mere peasants have, you must be so far above logic that you obviously know that the illogical thing to do would be to act chaotically and randomly? Yet you do not. You follow your doctrine as logically laid before you, just like everyone else. So don't tell me logic is all I have. It's all you have too brother.

You are wrong.

You are blind and deaf.

Nuh uh. You are.

NUH UH Uh UH!!! my father will kick your dads ass

(then torture you in hell for eternity ) SO THERE!!!

...btw......Jesus loves you...

Originally posted by Battlefresh
So...Jesus died for all our sins, but we can only be absolved of them if we believe in him? I grew up in Sunday school and that's always been my understanding.

That makes no sense though. To me that says two ridiculous things. One, that "believers" have a free pass to sin. And Two, that God (or whoever mans the gate) has a way of knowing who believes and who doesn't...as of course a non-believer would lie to get into heaven.

It's all absurd of course, but it's fun to theorize on the preposterous.

Personaly I use "Resolve" to get stains out of my clothes(and it leaves a fresh clean scent of Summer!) but..that's just me.

..oh yes the perennial question.....you are correct.... what you were taught in Sunday school( I hope they let you out for air occasionally) is illogical and of course false.It is all so much more complex.There's a planet called Nibiru....excuse me I have to take my meds............................................................................ahhh...scratch the Nibiru thing too....this is a hard question!!

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by DigitalKid

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..

Jesus's crucifixion is seen as a symbol of god's love and forgiveness and so on.. 'Jesus died on the cross in order for our sins to be forgiven', etc (you get the point). What I don't understand is how and the hell that is supposed to correlate with one another in some sort of way that christians discuss and view as being perfectly logical or something? Has it ever struck anyone that it makes no logical sense what so ever?

How is god sending his 'only son' to earth, to be betrayed and then brutally massacred in order for him to forgive the sins of his own creation (human beings- us) logical what so ever? I just don't understand.. Christians use/discuss/preach about this constantly as if it makes any logical sense.. Why and the HELL would god choose to/need to/DESIRE to send his only son to earth to be killed in order to forgive us?

I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

The death on the cross is symbolic, it didn't actually happen.

The death on the cross symbolizes the death of the 5 senses and the move into higher conscious.

How many injuries did he have?

5 one in both hands, one in both feet and one in the side.

The bible was written by mystics and showed you things by numerology and symbolism, hence the 5 injuries.

The number 9 in the bible is also important it actually means higher consciousness hence why 144,000 (1+4+4=9) people where saved, you see these numbers many times over and if you study numerology all of this becomes very apparent and easy to understand.

There is also another story with Jesus fishing and he says fish to the right side of the boat and they did and caught 153 fish. Again this was symbolic of the brain and the right side of the brain hence 153 fish (1+5+3 =9) and was showing again in a symbolic way higher consciousness.

I suggest maybe it's something you start to look into?

Hope this helps.

edit on 1-7-2013 by DigitalKid because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-7-2013 by DigitalKid because: (no reason given)

You are leading people to hell.....please stop spreading false truths.

I can see your life is without God, son and holy spirit ........ hell is guiding and misdirecting you. STOP this New Age religion teachings. It is full of half truths and teachings from demons.

Your life is full of confusion, hate, and fear.

In Jesus name I ask that God release these heavy burdens that are upon you and your family and may you be set free.

AMEN

Please look into things with reason and find truth, not be told what truth is.

By all means pray for me but my friend I'm not the one who needs it.

There is NO HELL!

Just right or wrong choices which you make to grow the ladder of spiritual evolution which is exactly what the bible is telling you when you read it SYMBOLICALLY.

Follow the story not the teller, isn't that exactly what Jesus said?

Originally posted by Rex282

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..
I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.

The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.

I haven't asked anything, actually. haha.

Speak for yourself man, religion makes you blind and deaf. And in that sense, youre right. I cannot teach a person blinded by faith, or deafened by lies how to see the truth or hear reason.

I don't know if you've noticed, but logic as all ANYONE has. Anything else is just chaos, and what could it possibly contribute to order? If your religion is such an illogical one, then why don't you do the opposite of what it preaches? Since, you know, logic is all we mere peasants have, you must be so far above logic that you obviously know that the illogical thing to do would be to act chaotically and randomly? Yet you do not. You follow your doctrine as logically laid before you, just like everyone else. So don't tell me logic is all I have. It's all you have too brother.

You are wrong.

You are blind and deaf.

Nuh uh. You are.

NUH UH Uh UH!!! my father will kick your dads ass

(then torture you in hell for eternity ) SO THERE!!!

...btw......Jesus loves you...

How many quotes within quotes can we make here? It's like the Inception of quotes.

Jesus owes me $5.

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Rex282

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by Fraudfinder

Originally posted by Kody27

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
This is something that I've wanted to inquire to people about for a little while now.. Keep in mind, I am not anti-Christian or whatever, and I am just trying to understand the logic behind this..
I mean jesus, (ironically expression is on topic here) that's pretty brutal and as some would say 'hardcore'.. Why would he have the desire, let alone need to do such a thing AT ALL let alone in order to forgive beings that he created, allegedly, to be exactly as they are (as christians also say)? It makes little sense to me, what do you think? Christians/etc can you please make sense of this for me?

I hope you came prepared to receive numerous lengthy biblical reasons to your query, and no actual logical explanation. Because there is none. You're right. It doesn't make sense. None of it. The fact that Christianity is a religion that revolves around suffering, submission, allegiance and guilt should be a clue that it's illogical to begin with. Spirituality is supposed to be about unconditional love. You can pretty much close the book after that.

The blind can not see and the deaf can not hear.

How do you teach a blind man to see or a deaf man to hear? These are the questions you ask.

Logic is all you have and it will never satisfy you or the others.

I haven't asked anything, actually. haha.

Speak for yourself man, religion makes you blind and deaf. And in that sense, youre right. I cannot teach a person blinded by faith, or deafened by lies how to see the truth or hear reason.

I don't know if you've noticed, but logic as all ANYONE has. Anything else is just chaos, and what could it possibly contribute to order? If your religion is such an illogical one, then why don't you do the opposite of what it preaches? Since, you know, logic is all we mere peasants have, you must be so far above logic that you obviously know that the illogical thing to do would be to act chaotically and randomly? Yet you do not. You follow your doctrine as logically laid before you, just like everyone else. So don't tell me logic is all I have. It's all you have too brother.

You are wrong.

You are blind and deaf.

Nuh uh. You are.

NUH UH Uh UH!!! my father will kick your dads ass

(then torture you in hell for eternity ) SO THERE!!!

...btw......Jesus loves you...

How many quotes within quotes can we make here? It's like the Inception of quotes.

Jesus owes me $5.

By the way this thread is going I'd say it will go on infinitely until it reaches the event horizon of The Betelgeuse black hole and is stuck influx..... forever!!!...muuuuuuuhhahahah.....my" plan" is WORKING!!... I mean gosh dern it ....can't we all just get along!.....btw Jesus already paid the debts...yours must still be in the mail.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Right..............

What evidence do you have Jerome deliberately mistranslated the writings of Origen?

He didn't -- the guy he was complaining about did. The evidence is Jerome's letter denouncing him for it and citing examples.

I reject your "newly discovered" "Origen's commentary on the "Gospel of Matthew"

What are you talking about? You think someone forged Greek and Latin copies of the text, got in their time machine and went back to 240AD to plant them? You think that it is never referenced by anyone from 240AD until it was trotted out to refute Shirley MacLaine?

Shirley MacLaine is a nitwit whose goofy views are only a threat to those foolish enough to listen to her -- I hardly believe that a grand conspiracy was put in motion by the church to squelch her ridiculous claims.

Besides the fact that these writings contradict his earlier writing

No, they do not -- reincarnation had been denounced as heresy by the orthodox church in the middle of the Second Century in the refutation of the Gnostic Christians, and if Third Century Origen was openly heretical, he would not have had any sort of position in the church, so we know that his earlier writing was not about reincarnation.

So, on the one hand, we have the words of the man, saying that he didn't believe in reincarnation and that it had never been a part of church teaching, along with the knowledge that it was rejected as heresy by the church and anyone who promoted it would be kicked out as a heretic a hundred years prior.

On the other, we have you, with your insistence that a man 1,700 years in the grave must be in agreement with you because you read it on a pro-reincarnation web site, and all real evidence should be thrown out in favour of that.

Well, whatever, believe what you want, but it should be obvious to any unbiased observer that your credibility on this subject has taken a real hit, because those who present opinion as fact, and reject established facts that are in disagreement with that opinion are not credible.

reply to post by Battlefresh

So...Jesus died for all our sins, but we can only be absolved of them if we believe in him? I grew up in Sunday school and that's always been my understanding.

It's a gift, like any gift it has to be received, but it can also be rejected. His gift only works if you accept it.

That makes no sense though. To me that says two ridiculous things. One, that "believers" have a free pass to sin. And Two, that God (or whoever mans the gate) has a way of knowing who believes and who doesn't...as of course a non-believer would lie to get into heaven.

Makes perfect sense if you have any understanding at all of the old testament scriptures which requires the blood (soul) of an innocent for the blood (soul) of the guilty. It's not a free pass to sin, those who receive salvation inherit a desire to want to do good , they don't want to willing sin (do wrong) and if they do sin, then the Holy Spirit convicts them of it until they repent (change their minds) and atone (make amends). Someone who has genuinely received salvation, is not going to say "now I have a license to sin tee-hee!", those are what Jesus calls Nicolaitans that he hates. Go read Jeremiah 7 for some perspective.

Jeremiah 7:8-11

8 “Behold, you trust in lying words that cannot profit. 9 Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, burn incense to Baal, and walk after other gods whom you do not know, 10 and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered to do all these abominations’? 11 Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of thieves in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” says the Lord.

This is just a small part of it, but here you can clearly see that the Lord got really angry at Judah for thinking they had a license to sin, this ofcourse is what Jesus spoke of in Matthew 21:13.

Ofcourse God knows who is a believer and who isn't, that's what the Book of Life is, that and he reads your heart and mind. Jesus demonstrated more than once he can read what is in a man's heart and mind.

Jeremiah 17:10

10 “I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give to each man according to his ways,
According to the results of his deeds.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


LOVE. Plain and simple.

Originally posted by ElOmen
I don't get why some religious people idolize the crucified jesus instead of just a normal looking jesus.
Can someone help shed some light on this?

I always wondered this when in Sunday school when I was younger. I brought the topic up in my class, but it was kind of deflected and not really explained. I guess my young teacher wasn't expecting a question like that.

reply to post by adjensen

if Third Century Origen was openly heretical, he would not have had any sort of position in the church, so we know that his earlier writing was not about reincarnation.

OH my GOD, you are SO obtuse! (Bangs head against nearest wall)

Here is Jerome condemning Origen for teaching reincarnation!

15. The following passage is a convincing proof that he (ORIGEN) holds the transmigration of souls and annihilation of bodies. If it can be shown that an incorporeal and reasonable being has life in itself independently of the body and that it is worse off in the body than out of it; then beyond a doubt bodies are only of secondary importance and arise from time to time to meet the varying conditions of reasonable creatures. Those who require bodies are clothed with them, and contrariwise, when fallen souls have lifted themselves up to better things, their bodies are once more annihilated. They are thus ever vanishing and ever reappearing.

Jerome then ends this letter, in which he promises to send a copy of Origin's work, with the addition of further disclaimer:

16. This being the nature of Origen's book, is it anything short of madness to change a few blasphemous passages regarding the Son and the Holy Spirit and then to publish the rest unchanged with an unprincipled eulogy when the parts unaltered as well as the parts altered flow from the same fountain head of gross impiety?

www.newadvent.org...

Reading comprehension, my friend.

The fact that the Catholic Church has to manufacture evidence to try and prove that Origen didn't teach what he clearly did teach is easy to see through.


End of discussion!

It is very simple. One man died, so that many could be free.

The story that keeps going today. One person can make a deference in society and the world. People continue to believe that this is not true. Doing so they condemn the idea or belief. But every so often. A person comes forth and fights that system.

Maybe when you read this you can think of a hero in your life that fits this. Mine was Martin Luther King Jr, JFK, John Lennon and Bruce lee.

Just because you sacrifice your life for a belief does not mean you die in vain.

It's a matter of faith. Logic is for Vulcans

Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

Logic? Hmmm... for someone to give a life... THEIR life for complete strangers?

Terrible! This is definitely not something that falls under the category of a 'human' behavior.

I could suggest that Christ was setting forth a path... an example for the rest of us to follow but, that would, indeed, run counter to our nature. The human condition is that we put ourselves first and everything and everyone else... second-to-last.

And no, we didn't need some god or His Son to offer us a better way to do things. Just look around today and you can see that the human race has itself and the world under firm control... where all things just work and click right along. No complaints... no faults.

We'll be just fine, thank you.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

if Third Century Origen was openly heretical, he would not have had any sort of position in the church, so we know that his earlier writing was not about reincarnation.

OH my GOD, you are SO obtuse! (Bangs head against nearest wall)

Here is Jerome condemning Origen for teaching reincarnation!

Once again, you are not quoting Origen, you are quoting a translation of Origen by Jerome, along with commentary from Jerome, who was on a tear against a group of Egyptian monks who were followers of Origen, and were preaching the pre-existence of the soul and universal salvation, neither of which were heretical at the time, but with Jerome's help, were made so in short order.

There is no evidence that Origen, or any early orthodox Christian, believed in reincarnation, and there is evidence in his writings that Origen taught against it, and said it had never had been a teaching of the church. Bang your head all you want, but I'll take evidence over non-evidence any day.

ok i tipitoed around this post earlier saying if god existed then where has he been for thousands of years?

the fact is nowhere cause he didn,t or hasn.t existed in first place.

just about every scientist in world now believes we came from a big bang and that life is all over the universe

if they 2 last quotes are true then it blows the god and jesus story out the water and thats what people are scared off.as we know people want to have something to believe in but they,ve believed in the high and mighty that long they can,t except anything else maybe true.

just look even in last 10 years how scientists have found out things that they,ve been telling us for years that were impossible but now finding out they maybe not as smart as they think they are.

reply to post by adjensen

Once again, you are not quoting Origen, you are quoting a translation of Origen by Jerome, along with commentary from Jerome, who was on a tear against a group of Egyptian monks who were followers of Origen, and were preaching the pre-existence of the soul and universal salvation, neither of which were heretical at the time, but with Jerome's help, were made so in short order.

Jerome owned many of the works of Origen, and he proudly paid a pretty penny to get them. He was the authority on Origen at the time, and that's why he was asked to deliver a pure copy of Origen's text to compare with what they thought might be a forgery. Jerome was quoting Origen. Nobody thought that Jerome had mistranslated Origen.

There is no evidence that Origen, or any early orthodox Christian, believed in reincarnation, and there is evidence in his writings that Origen taught against it, and said it had never had been a teaching of the church. Bang your head all you want, but I'll take evidence over non-evidence any day.

Reading comprehension! The evidence is as clear as the nose on your face. Jerome quoted Origen in order to provide evidence of Origen's perceived blasphemy for teaching reincarnation.

You won't accept a translation of Origen's work by Jerome, but you will accept a translation by these guys?

St. Jerome (347-420) has been considered the pre-eminent scriptural commentator among the Latin Church Fathers. His Commentary on Matthew, written in 398 and profoundly influential in the West, appears here for the first time in English translation.

ABOUT THE TRANSLATOR:

Thomas P. Scheck is assistant professor of classics and theology at Ave Maria University. He is the translator of two previous volumes in the series, Origen's Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, Books 1-5 and Books 6-10, and author of Origen and the History of Justification cuapress.cua.edu... .

There is nothing more to argue. Origen taught reincarnation. Shirley McClain was right.
www.newadvent.org...

Jerome's letter number 124, is proof that the Catholic Church is lying about Origen, to cover an embarrassing fact.

If reincarnation is a truth it takes a lot of emphasis off the importance of the death of Jesus.