Jesus Died On the Cross For Our Sins.. WHERE is the logic?

reply to post by TheIceQueen


Yes I dont Understand either... Ice Queen

Just How Far Has the First Council of Nicaea Really I Mean REALLY Has Gone... the First Council and the 2nd...





This Either .... but it Represents a Simulation of Eating His Flesh N Blood


But what it does remind me is .....

The same concept AS when the Old Tradition of killing a Hunted beast for Food and Drink it blood or eat its Heart so it can make you a batter Hunter and put the Beast's Spirit within your Body To Hunt for a Better Kill !!!

reply to post by Wolfenz


You are confusing pagan infused catholic teaching with the Bible...

Originally posted by Deirdre
This has always been one of my main problems with the religion and one reason I deconverted. Why is God needing more bloodshed to resolve, essentially, his screw-up in how he created the world? And if Jesus = God, then who cares? He killed himself in order to appease himself so he could forgive us? But it only works if we a. know about it at all; and b. believe in it? Whaa? It just doesn't make any sense.

Why do I need God to forgive my sins? My sins aren't hurting God, they're hurting other humans. God obviously isn't bothered by my sins if he can torture me for eternity later anyway. (Which BTW, is psychotic.)

The other thing is the Jesus worship. I'm supposed to have a personal relationship with a guy who's been dead for 2000 years and saved me from...what? The God that I am supposed to worship and love also? That is a pretty dysfunctional family, seriously. The devil isn't the one putting me in hell. God is. Good going, solving that problem, God! You sure punished that devil guy by um...making him the king of hell and just allowing him all kinds of freedom to make humans suffer, which he apparently enjoys immensely?

I really like this post - thank you. I would correct the "hurting others humans" to include hurting oneself.

The idea is that certain behaviors and, more subtly, thoughts are harmful to others but mostly ourselves. These harmful behaviors and thoughts can be called sin if you wish. Regardless of the fact of a supreme creator diety or not - spritual law states that everything you do (or think) to someone, something is going to be returned to you sometime.

The doctrine of forgiveness does not remove personal responsibilty it only acts to mitagate the further unskillful thoughts of guilt.

Also - important is the fact that there are levels of practise - first the behavior must improve - but then even more important for actual free life is that old thinking habits be changed.

Consistancy - in action, word and thought is required of the spritual traveler. Christianity, the Gospels in particular, teach this. The old testament and pauls writtings not so much.

The Old testament was about outer rules. The Gospel about the outer and the inner, with the inner triumphant. Paul - well I think he was just an opportunist myself but not being a Christian I guess it doesn't matter too much. I take what I can use from Christian Scripture, that which makes my existance better. The old testament I've never understood. I do keep trying - but that god - I want no part of.

Originally posted by raifordko
reply to post by Wolfenz

 

You are confusing pagan infused catholic teaching with the Bible...

LOL!!!

Merry Christmas to You
Happy Easter

Ahh Sorry to Break it to you but All In my Seeing Eyes is Bit and Pieces Borrowed From Pagan Religion. with in the Bible AMEN!!



.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

"Never referred" to it?
I suggest reading Acts 8:26-40.
Phillip tells the eunuch reading Isaiah 53 that the passage is about Jesus Christ and shares the Christian gospel to him from it.

the quote from Acts is,

Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
(2011 NIV)
It happened that the eunuch was reading part of Isaiah 53 when Philip came along. It doesn't say that Philip said it was about Jesus, but he probably said something about how the scripture tells of someone being killed unjustly without complaining, which is what Acts tells us was the scripture that he asked philip about.
I think it is obvious that this seems to fit what happened to Jesus, that he was given a mockery of a trial and was killed and Jesus was able to refrain from cursing those who were doing this to him.
You could isolate that passage and say that this was somehow a prediction, but it does not "explain" the Gospel as you claimed that it did.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
"Jesus died for our sins"; this statement is a misquote/misinterpretation, imo on purpose. The truth of the matter, and how it really is, is 'Jesus died because of your sins', and I dont mean your sins, I mean 'Jesus died because of the sins of those living back in his time and area, and those who killed him'. Jesus was a cultural, ideological,political,revolutionary, philosopher who was killed because those living during his time could not accept to conform to his ideals, which he claimed to be 'perfect, righteous, sinless, a heaven on earth', because people are and were unwilling to live in and create a perfect world for everyone, because people want to live in sin, jesus was killed. "Jesus died from our sins", not for them.

edit on 30-6-2013 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

Jesus died and was sacrificed for all SIN. Man was marked with sin which became inherited / born with. He made a correction in man's soul as a "way out" - a way to heaven. THIS IS FOR EVERYONE!

Jesus's death was foretold throughout both the Old and New Testament.

God became mortal (man) to SAVE man. Do you understand this?

The way to the Father is ONLY through the son. God the father made a covenant/promise with his son.

ANYONE who ask GOD THE FATHER - in the name of Jesus Christ with a sincere heart will be forgiven and their sins erased and forgotten.

No one else can do this. It is vital to understand this message.

AMEN.

Originally posted by FyreByrd

Originally posted by Deirdre
This has always been one of my main problems with the religion and one reason I deconverted. Why is God needing more bloodshed to resolve, essentially, his screw-up in how he created the world? And if Jesus = God, then who cares? He killed himself in order to appease himself so he could forgive us? But it only works if we a. know about it at all; and b. believe in it? Whaa? It just doesn't make any sense.

Why do I need God to forgive my sins? My sins aren't hurting God, they're hurting other humans. God obviously isn't bothered by my sins if he can torture me for eternity later anyway. (Which BTW, is psychotic.)

The other thing is the Jesus worship. I'm supposed to have a personal relationship with a guy who's been dead for 2000 years and saved me from...what? The God that I am supposed to worship and love also? That is a pretty dysfunctional family, seriously. The devil isn't the one putting me in hell. God is. Good going, solving that problem, God! You sure punished that devil guy by um...making him the king of hell and just allowing him all kinds of freedom to make humans suffer, which he apparently enjoys immensely?

I really like this post - thank you. I would correct the "hurting others humans" to include hurting oneself.

The idea is that certain behaviors and, more subtly, thoughts are harmful to others but mostly ourselves. These harmful behaviors and thoughts can be called sin if you wish. Regardless of the fact of a supreme creator diety or not - spritual law states that everything you do (or think) to someone, something is going to be returned to you sometime.

The doctrine of forgiveness does not remove personal responsibilty it only acts to mitagate the further unskillful thoughts of guilt.

Also - important is the fact that there are levels of practise - first the behavior must improve - but then even more important for actual free life is that old thinking habits be changed.

Consistancy - in action, word and thought is required of the spritual traveler. Christianity, the Gospels in particular, teach this. The old testament and pauls writtings not so much.

The Old testament was about outer rules. The Gospel about the outer and the inner, with the inner triumphant. Paul - well I think he was just an opportunist myself but not being a Christian I guess it doesn't matter too much. I take what I can use from Christian Scripture, that which makes my existance better. The old testament I've never understood. I do keep trying - but that god - I want no part of.

Many people blame God for the earth's current condition, murder, theft, rape hungar, etc.......Are you not aware of the fact that this world belongs to Satan? That Satan rules this world! Where does it say that? In the bible.

You are blaming the wrong individual - It is Satan's rule and way of life on this rock.

There is a way to escape this.....and it is up to you not God. There are many people escaping the punishment that many see in this world. They are protected because they are God's children - those who follow the teachings of the prophets and Jesus are being taken care of by the one true God. Those who fall away and want to rebel will be held responsible.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


The reason why he died on a cross is so that his teachings will transcend through time and help people change their ways. Now, if he didn't died on a cross, he probably won't be remembered and people will forget his teachings, society will spiral out of control, and eventually self destruct.

After watching Ancient Aliens series I got a LOT of answers, many of their ideas are a lot more logical than any other ideas.
Everything seems to be symbolical, and the humans are interpreting everything in their own way, without really getting this confirmed by any means.

Take for example the Moses and the burning bush, at that time they didn't know what technology was. If you didn't know how an aircraft of a special design or some device of a special design was, if you knew nothing about voltage, power and so on, what would you describe it as?

The old cultures and texts and also the bible has a lot of interpretations, so everything that is being said in the bible is not really logical or true, you just need to look at it with another idea in your mind, and try to understand what it REALLY could be.

God makes a woman pregnant, wouldn't that sound like an extra-terrestial that either abduct or makes her pregnant in some other way? To get a kind of hybrid?

There are so many stories just like that in a lot of old cultures, so you just have to start to wonder.
I still believe in God, but everything is not 100% right in any religion.

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword

 

I'm not behaving difficultly, the link is already on the last page.


And yes, Origen is discussing reincarnation. Criticizing Clesus's position affirming the doctrine.

edit on 30-6-2013 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

You'd have to have some fairly convoluted logic to deduce that from those quotes..

Read the title itself, "Contra Clesus", and the opening paragraph.

Have you even read it? I have and I come away the opinion of a man exploring and delving deeper into the argument for reincarnation in a logical and reasonable approach to the aspects of reincarnation and the nature of the pre-existent and immortal soul.

I guess you are talking about Celsus, a greek philosopher that debunked the early christians ( as we debunk today's christians). He visualized the upcoming curse (dark ages) that christianity would brought and gave very good information about the ancient pre christian believes about the concept of soul, god etc
Among other philosophers (christians hated philosophy) all his books were destroyed by them.
By the quotes of origen who without any logic (common for religions) tried (unsuccessfully to the eyes of educated people) to debunk some of Celsus points . We can today read a small part of his book ''true words'' through the quotes origen used in his book.
Celsus Book ''Λόγος Ἀληθής'' (at least what is saved of it) among with a recent book a ''story of love'' by Dr. Rassias, is a must for every atheist, to get a view of what happened at the start of this dangerous dogma called Christianity and how it spread across europe.

This is a very thoughtful question. I could only read so many of the "answers" though before I had to post this one.To the OP ..the reality is what you believe is partially true.The BIG reality is Christians have no idea why Jesus(not his name...it is Yahoshua..more latter) died for mankinds sin.It is so awkwardly phrased the answers come out convoluted as the belief.This is it in a nutshell.It is exactly what Christians DON"T believe but believe they do without knowing what it is...well you'll hopefully see what I mean.

First ..sin means missing and /or falling short of the mark.... missing and falling short of perfection.It isn't so much a doing as a state of being.When someone is imperfect(and EVERYONE IS) they have fallen short and missed the mark of perfection hence ...they "sin" .They aren't perfect so they sin. It is falsely assumed that Adam and Eve did it the other way around( I won't even get into the literal aspect of those two or the seeming contradiction of the "two creation stories).

Supposedly Eve was the first to sin and she and Adam were perfect before so they "fell" into sin....again not true.They didn't fall because they sinned they were created that way....imperfect..immature.The "eating" of the Tree of the knowledge of Good and evil was not the catalyst "of sin" because Eve and Adam we already imperfect.They were immature babies not yet grown up out of their natural nature.All this talk of falling and trees in the forest with no one hearing is germane because what happened to Yahoshua.Eve ate the "fruit" of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.What is fruit..it is seed.It is how the trees reproduces itself over and over in greater abundance to propagate .

I need to define a few more terms before I continue.Adam comes from the word adamah which means red clay,or dirt it also means MAN.The race of Adam..Mankind.Physically we are made of what is essential dirt all of our physical bodys will eventually return to dust.Adam is the 1st Adam..man..The man of the earth...dust.Yahoshua is the 2nd Adam ...Man(Son of Man)....the man of "above"(not heaven "somewhere out there btw) spirit...which in its essence means life.

God formed Adam(humans) from dirt.This is a known fact what humans are materialy made of.But mere physical life will not cause us to "live" in the realm of perception..consciousness(no ...that isn't WHAT spirit is).Hades(what the bible translated poorly as hell) is the realm of death and imperception.Our physical life is sustained by spirit and IS what is known as soul.We do not HAVE a soul we ARE a soul.It is a body that has the life of spirit "active" in them.

Here's where it gets deep and very quantum physicy.We are alive physically by spirit and ARE a living soul yet we are dead in spirit.This age ..physical realm existence ...is the valley of the SHADOW of death (hades).In essence..humankind is in two places at the same time in two realms... a foot on each side so to speak.Spirit that sustains our life that is on both sides is dead...in hades..to the spirit realm perception (in the realm of imperception) while our body while is alive our soul is not dead yet.Hopefully this picture being painted can be seen as one of imperfection...immaturity..it has not grown sufficiently to circumvent physical death and imperception of the spirit realm....as Alice Cooper said "I'm a boy and I'm a Man cause I'm 18!!"(for you mathmaticians you'll notice 18 is Lucas number 6..hey!.. I was into Alice Cooper music for a reason!!)

The reason for all this one foot in the grave stuff is we are all born through the "seed" of the 1st Adam.Man of the dirt(earth).It was not made to overcome death in its present state it has to do what all seeds do.. die to be born anew to mature into a plant/tree.That is the true meaning of born again(which is not in the original transcriptions and is only in the scriptures as born anew 2 times ).It is not BORN again as in alluding to the cycle of reincarnation... but anew.What is BEING born anew(it's a process not an event) is our spirit.That is why Yahoshua said you MUST be born anew to ENTER in the kingdom of God (the heavens... there is NO heaven somewhere out there beyond the stars).Where is Gods kingdom?..it is IN your midst..you are the Temple of God..everyone is because it has spirit "breathed into it.Yes this gets very complicated and I don't even pretend to completely understand it.Yet physical nature is a preview..a shadow of how it works.

contd next post
[edi

The plot grows thicker and thicker because spirit is of the realm we cannot perceive while in the shadow of hades. Metaphors are the only way to try to explain it but of course it can't be truly perceived...we can only see the shadows being cast(shades of Platos cave!!).The bottom line is Yahoshua is the seed of spirit just as Adams seed was the seed of earth...physical.Yes it is sex to the nth degree birth pangs following and all.That is why all the talk of the marriage supper of the lamb etc....Yahoshua's name is his nature.

Now it's time I explained Yahoshuas name( I do it many times a day why stop now!) It means Yahweh(God) IS salvation....the deliverer from the valley of the shadow of death....imperfection...SIN.As said before..Man IS NOT sinful because he sins ...he sins because he is sinful...imperfect.I know some folks think they aren't imperfect at all but I prefer not to tell them if they can't figure it out on their own they won't hear anything but their own beautiful voice anyways....

Salvation is the meaning of what is called "forgiveness" of sin.Forgiveness is a very poor choice of a word definition for modern man because the connotation is completely different than what is happening means.It is deliverance....salvation FROM the sin nature in the valley of the shadow of death.No one can save themselves from it.Some don't even care to.Many have no idea what it means but think they do.None of it matters in the long run because...God is doing it ALL regardless of the mass ignorance.It is his Gig...to cause things to grow...deliver them from death that is inevitable because that is the process of life.Of course man does not(cannot) perceive 'The REAL " thing that is going on....especially those that THINK they do.They believe religion is their connection (communion) with God however ..religion IS their God.!!

How could they so easily misunderstand this most basic principle of God and then perceive it as multitudes of thousands of convoluted beliefs.The fact is it is ALL part of the salvation process.Yahoshua called it the first will be last and the last will be first.Those that think they believe the truth ..don't believe any truth..those who think they aren't blind are blind.I didn't make this stuff up ...it's how it works.Yes the whole things seems very odd UNTIL you realize (and everyone will) everything is odd until you know what it means....right?..(rhetorical) I know what the number 0.309,016,994,374,947 means now.I didn't for a while....even though I saw it a lot.

The good thing is we are not required to know what it all means regardless what the doctrines of men say.There is no "formula" of belief that gets you a ticket to a big blue train in the sky.There is nothing anyone can do to earn it or choose it or ascend to higher dimensions or awaken themselves.That is all religion.There are no bonus points for any of it.The benefits in this age (and all ages) are all given and not to the "wonderfully" kind and "spiritual" people that are so enlightened God bestows it upon them.Paul said he was the most imperfect man who ever lived and I believe him.He was one effed up religious nutcase.He didn't say a prayer to get changed (the meaning of repenting btw) he got blinded.The teachings that have been convoluted by what he wrote in letters is almost laughable if they weren't so absolutely flawed(The doctrines of men not Pauls actual writings).

The bottom 8Hz line is Yahoshua IS the Son of God...yep he IS God.He entered into the physical realm as a human in flesh and bone made of dirt....The Son of Man.He is THE SEED(the seed of all seeds)...that was sown in the earth died and resurrected(means to stand up) in spirit that IS causing ALL things to grow.This fact cannot be proven however that doesn't void it as fact.There is no belief that will ever prove it or make it more of a fact even though the evidence is abundant.

We just can't see it or put the evident facts together because ...WE DON'T HAVE TO!!My suggestions for those who don't believe what Yahoshua did..why look for what can't be found.If you need to know.... you will KNOW..not believe...(think about that for a while).and as I've said before... try to make the best of this short trip.Don't let the apparent insurmountable chaos and entropy get you down.You will look back on it one day in wonderment of what the hell Was I thinking!!!

Among other things Celsus says that Jesus original name was ravi jessoua and he was just another charlatan, who among many other ''messiahs'' of that time tried to preach his views. he also says that the father of Jesus was a roman soldier called Panthera, and although some schollars like Raymond E. Brown who is referred in wiki say thats a fanciful explanation of the birth of Jesus which includes very little historical evidence, It is all we have, cause no other historical reference about Jesus exists.

My view is that some people, his supposed followers, created the christian dogma for ''political purposes'' using one of the many ''messiahs'' that were crussified at that time, and ''builded'' around him certain characteristics and events, stories etc. which were written (made up) long after his death. their propaganda was very succesfull and through a major amount of events to they established a Christian Empire (byzantioum which with Rome) erased the pagan character of ancient europe through bloodbath, torture, and burning. Not even one ancient temple stands now in greece, they have all met the violence of early christianity. only 1% is saved today of the ancient knowlege our ancestors left for us, books related to science , history, astronomy, mathematics, philosophy are lost forever, because some fanatic lunatics who couldn't understand them, thought they were related to Satan, because early christianity preached that all pagans were satan's worshipers!

Originally posted by undo
jesus came up with all kinds of awesome things but nobody listened to him then either. 2000 years ago, he instructed us that slavery was done. finished. no more slaves. 2000 years ago he said men and women were equal. he was so far ahead of his time, we still haven't caught up to him yet.

"he was so far ahead of his time, we still haven't caught up to him yet"

Well said ! When we do, we will be like him ! What a beautiful coming world lies ahead for those who believe !

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I am glad that we have a loving God, the one that Jesus taught us about, rather than that horrible character in the Old Testament who actually tried to kill everyone, according to the story.

The Jews didn't know God

Titus 1:14 "Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, instead of giving heed to Jewish myths or to commands of men who reject the truth"

Jesus told the truth about God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
That is in the Old Testament, and is symbolic of those who were led into captivity by the Babylonians though they were faultless and it was the sins of the common people who created the calamity, that is, according to the priest-craft who would have written that.

In captivity the Jewish priesthood adopted Babylonian worship and became the "The Great Harlot Mystery Babylon", that persecuted and killed the Christians.

Originally posted by Wolfenz
But what it does remind me is .....

The same concept AS when the Old Tradition of killing a Hunted beast for Food and Drink it blood or eat its Heart so it can make you a batter Hunter and put the Beast's Spirit within your Body To Hunt for a Better Kill !!!

Yes, but instead of eating the Beast in order to be like the Beast, the Christians eat Christ to be like Christ.

The same concept with opposite outcome !

reply to post by jmdewey60


You said it was never quoted from by any NT author. That's bogus, Isaiah 53 is quoted from in Acts 8. I suppose that quote just slipped your mind maybe when you spoke earlier. But it goes on to say in that chapter that Phillip shares the gospel of Jesus Christ with the Ethiopian eunuch from that chapter he was reading from.

Isaiah 53 is Messianic, simple as that and confirmed in the NT by Phillip and Luke the author of Acts. So don't accuse anyone for teaching that the Lord laid all our sin upon Jesus as "heresy" when that precisely what Isaiah 53 says.

Because God is a Just god, Adam sinned and became imperfect in order for Humans to be forgiven it required a perfect life to as a corresponding ransom to pay the price for mans sins. What was the correspondence? Adam brought imperfection and death to billions, his descendants. It is true that Jesus, as a perfect man, could have been the source of billions of perfect descendants. Hence, it was understood that a combination of Jesus’ life plus that of all his potential perfect descendants formed a sacrifice equivalent to that of Adam and his imperfect descendants. As no perfect man can ever be found after Adam, God sent his son as a Perfect Sacrifice so we can be forgiven.

reply to post by TheIceQueen


It seems to me that you are assuming that our creator (God, Jehovah) is in control of the world and rules it.

When Jesus began his ministry, he was tempted by the devil. The devil offered to make Jesus king of kings. If Jesus would only bow down and worship the devil his reward would be the highest rank possible. Jesus refused. The logic of this story implies that it is the devil that rules the world (then and now). Because the story implies that the devil indeed has the undisputed authority to bestow the highest rank of all on Jesus.

The devil enticed Adam and Eve to sin. We therefore inherited sin from them. The result is that we exist in a weakened state by the agency of inheritance. How can we recover from this weakness? We need help. Jesus takes upon himself the burden of our sins. Nice thing for him to do. To claim this free gift we must reject the devil and acknowledge that Jehovah is the one true God.

This story makes sense to me. Because I realize that I live in sin that I cannot escape without help.