Snowden: The Facts People Have Ignored

I have put this in this forum because i will admit its only based on some facts & some logical progression speculation and also the conclusion has not yet been proven, but as we all know sometimes these things will never be admitted to by our governments

As of now this story or cover story is a month or so old and the effects of this story and leaks has the people saying things like...

Why do people say "overthrow the government" rather than "reform the government"

Why do these programs always have to be used for bad things such as spying on us?

Why is our government at war with us?

This is disgusting our privacy is being abused WE MUST RIOT ON THE STREETS

They could potentially get information on my illness and send me junk mail for products

^^Which^^ was all part of the plan but nobody seems to get it... and i'll explain why

While it maybe hilarious to some to see these over exaggerations silly thinking and paranoia, to a minority of people on ATS its sending alarm bells ringing, not only are the anti west brigade for a change trusting MSN outlets they otherwise smeared as propaganda brainwashing channels, but they're for some reason missing important facts and neglecting common sense

But correct me if i'm wrong, this is the very definition of being brainwashed and ignorant, staying balanced and open minded and questioning things that doesn't add up has become a thing of the past on ATS, as i'm sure most people can see this whole thing absolutely stinks

Let me also state, i'm not here to change anyone's opinions or waste time arguing with anyone but instead to listen to facts if proven wrong...

But for me and others, this media circus surrounding the Snowden "privacy leaks" doesn't add up, so it is only natural for us to question and try to understand just what the truth maybe in all this, based on the facts we have and logical progression of thinking, ignoring all the MSN dis-info from both sides IE Western MSN and Russian & Chinese et-el

I personally don't believe this media circus is just about a privacy leak and neither do i think the US government would be making such a big fuss over a program which is well within the law, perhaps this is the reason why the US gov is using the Snowden circus as a cover story to spare it the embarrassment, the US gov has never been so aggressive in the returning of a NSA/CIA employee or any other leaker of secret documents

THE FACTS & SUSPICIOUS FACTS ARE

Why else did he take many laptops crammed with information and details regarding cyber defense programs & cyber offensive programs within the US/UK that are designed to defend and attack against the like of similar Russian & Chinese programs & hackers?, and then exile himself handing this treasure trove of information over to Russian & Chinese Intelligence?

Is it not possible Edward Snowden is a modern-day double agent, cleverly hiding his actions and painting himself as a victim of the U.S. government while working as an agent for the Chinese and Russians? this certainly would be the first time, but then again the US has never been painted in such a bad light in its entire history, all these people need is a motive and be confused to switch sides, and his history would certainly suggest he was vulnerable to being coaxed into it and exploited or willingly knew his actions

Edward Snowdon had a basic understanding of Mandarin, was deeply interested in martial arts, and listed Buddhism as his religion

Snowden's laptop displayed stickers supporting internet freedom organizations

Is it no wonder certain government officials had publically called snowden a traitor? why? what do these officials know that we don't? people are ignoring this too...

All he was said to exposed was the "Potential" of these cyber programs, and that they could "potentially" be misused to spy on citizens, but there is absolutely no evidence of these programs being misused in this way, and FOR WHAT PURPOSE would they be?

What people are missing is the fact these CLAIMS that the public is being spied on are FALSE, pointless & impossible, the only truth is... that these NSA "national security" GCHQ programs "COULD POTENTIALLY" be "MISUSED" for spying & snooping directly on innocent US/UK citizens, but why? that is an utterly stupid and pointless Idea, not to mention IMPOSSIBLE to achieve, the government would have to clone its population to spy on each other, and again for what purpose? were talking a handful of people directly monitoring and snooping on millions & millions of people for what purpose?, seriously walk to your window and look out at the city you live in, why? why the hell would you bother directly snooping on each of those households just to for fun? it would be a massive waste of time money and resources and not to mention a crime without a court order

That is what hackers do right? yes... and these systems guard against hackers which are far more a plentiful than NSA & GCHQ workers let alone the other threats these programs deal with.. as i'm sure agency's like this are already over stretched with the task at hand... this is just common sense

The fact is the programs which could "potentially" be used to spy on you or i are advanced keyword loggers and if the systems suspects anyone using certain words or "code" which is suspected and decoded from other Intel programs, which alert the system, and then either a court order must be passed for the agency's to then monitor you directly for further investigation, and ONLY if you're found to be innocent/not a threat and a massive waste of time could you claim your privacy has be broken, the fact is these programs are well within the law and are no different to CREDIT CHECKS which you have from banks or credit loaners, hell i would love to go into a bank and not have my credit history pulled up and not refused a loan i had no intention of paying back, but just as these checks are important for the system, so are these programs for National Security

If you're not a threat to our socierty why you so worried about a computer storing information? that will never be read?, these programs are very much needed to protect our countries from homegrown threats, foreign terrorist cells operating within, foreign intelligence agency's operating within, drug cartels, and all the way down to benefit cheats and fraudsters etc, this alone is a massive job for these types of agency's

So its so obvious this media circus is just a cover story and a massive farce and without them a country is essentially defenseless from these ever increasing threats in our modern day civilized world, that's of course if we want to keep it civilized & safe form internal and external threats, and here is the thing... who are those external threats... China? Russia? its no secret the Chinese have been stealing technology and gathering Intel on many western countries, or weaken these defenses

What better distraction for an angry public and cause tensions within, and tensions with allies, than to use and exploit a confused young man to deliver secrets... its the perfect propaganda campaign... turn the public against there governments, make it harder to defend against homegrown threats,and gain vast mountains of information on systems they seek to infiltrate and bypass

What if the people took to the streets forcing our governments to dismantle these programs? has anyone considered the consequences?

If you're not a threat to our socierty why you so worried about a computer storing information? that will never be read?, these programs are very much needed to protect our countries from homegrown threats, foreign terrorist cells operating within, foreign intelligence agency's operating within, drug cartels, and all the way down to benefit cheats and fraudsters etc, this alone is a massive job for these types of agency's

That is where I moved on...

It's the principle.

When "they" say that some one who (ex) complains about water quality is committing an act of terrorism, I believe there is plenty to worry about.

Not freak out- worry.

You could also turn it arround saying; if the US has nothing to hide, that's all done for the safety of the US, why are they making such a problem of it?

Also just in the news that according documents from Snowden revealed that EU buildings and diplomats where being spyed on. Of course they don't want anyone want to know about that, let alone for what reasons.

Also if they infiltrade and read every computer/email they can also use it for blackmailing or setting up people so more change of corruption.
They hold allot of power with all those spying programs (which have no rules or laws probaly) which maybe once where mainly used to fight terrorims (at least in their words) but can used for anything.
Google, facebook and you name it all helping those same spying government programs, must be addiction to know and read everything you want from anyone and anywhere.

And with all that spying going on at home and abroad you probaly trust others less and less. It's like when you cheat and then cheat some more on your wife and done so with previous girlfriends, you don't trust your wife or gf because you know yourself so we. causing the relation go bad and breaking up.
As you know the US got foreign relations...

The information Snowden has is heavily encrypted...truth.

Everyone claiming he has shared this information with foreign governments is doing just that...making a claim.


Prove it or shut up.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


Even if it does turn out to be something else, Edward Snowden is a potential treasure trove of further secret information.
I'd be pretty p***ed if i'd spent billions on research and someone gave away the intel/plans.
China and Russia are trying to get rid of this guy, does that not tell you something?

The point is, that the agenda the government claims it's after can be accomplished without being so intrusive.

Does it not make you suspicious, when they yell terrorist every day, and try to discredit anyone who disagrees with them?

Our economy is failing, and contrary to popular belief it is getting worse. Socialism is a way for a government to stabilize it's country. Do you think Americans are going to be happy with that?

I think we're going down, and the unconstitutional laws, the spying, FEMA camps, and acceptable behavior conditioning they're pushing on us through MSM is all connected to a loss of democracy they know is coming.

So yeah,I resent having everything I do recorded, and stored rather it's read are not.

It's unconstitutional and that's all the argument needed. And within the law you say? Sorry but if it goes against our rights the laws aren't allowed, and there for are not real laws.

Originally posted by whyamIhere

If you're not a threat to our socierty why you so worried about a computer storing information? that will never be read?, these programs are very much needed to protect our countries from homegrown threats, foreign terrorist cells operating within, foreign intelligence agency's operating within, drug cartels, and all the way down to benefit cheats and fraudsters etc, this alone is a massive job for these types of agency's

That is where I moved on...

It's the principle.

It is... and i can see how its a can of worms with those people that don't understand and paranoid

But unfortunately there is no other way to defend against these threats

Its trust these people don't have the time & interest or authorization to snoop on you for no good reason

OR

Watch your streets become flooded with drugs, terrorist explosions & bomb threats, welfare cheats milking the system, and your military secrets and defense programs stolen again and again until your dealing with an invasion threat from the ever stronger Russian, Chinese, Iran, North Korea, Alliance

Originally posted by EA006
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

Even if it does turn out to be something else, Edward Snowden is a potential treasure trove of further secret information.
I'd be pretty p***ed if i'd spent billions on research and someone gave away the intel/plans.
China and Russia are trying to get rid of this guy, does that not tell you something?

The call for Snowden to leave China come from the very top of China's government, and ordered him to now go to Russia

Putin has stated publically Edward Snowden is a freeman


Does that sound like hes not wanted? or under orders and being exploited ?


He was in China for a month id expect Russia to give him the same debriefing before running of with his money somewhere else

reply to post by TritonTaranis


It seems to be you that lacks understanding on this issue.

You haven't once addressed what a complete tyrant would do with all this 'harmless data stored'. It's STORED for a reason, to be used later. The massive data collection going on right now could incriminate you of anything. Every time you type the words 'terrorist' 'nuclear war' so on and so forth, you're incriminating yourself.

Hell, it's now an act of 'terrorism' to question water. Stay in your bubble, everyone's arguments bounce off of you like rubber bullets. You're not hear to listen, only espouse one view and subtly insult those who disagree as paranoid and delusional. Your post could of easily been construed (which it was by me) as a desperate attempt to garner support for your views, which failed in a previous post.

Answer me this question to validate your argument. If I'm doing nothing wrong, why am I being watched? So help me God if you say "for your safety".

Better yet, tell me where the 7/7 London footage is? What about the Pentagon footage, where did that go Mr trustful? This is THEIR database and they do what they want with it, when they want to. This isn't harmless, it's being INTEGRATED into bigger and more sophisticated weapons.

If you want to solve the problem of 'terror' you stop inflicting it ON OTHER PEOPLE.

Originally posted by MsAphrodite
The information Snowden has is heavily encrypted...truth.

Everyone claiming he has shared this information with foreign governments is doing just that...making a claim.


Prove it or shut up.

Wait lol

Why could he not access his own computer? he was trained NSA/CIA

AND

Why did he take them?

Why would he need to take secret documents to China to exile himself?

I don't need to prove it thats common sense for god sakes

reply to post by TritonTaranis


So because he is free, and Russia don't have an extradition treaty with the U.S, what's the problem with them giving him a passport like Depardieu?

Originally posted by EA006
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

So because he is free, and Russia don't have an extradition treaty with the U.S, what's the problem with them giving him a passport like Depardieu?

While the U.S. doesn't have an extradition treaty with Russia, there is nonetheless a clear legal basis to expel Mr. Snowden, based on the status of his passport was revoked long ago & other travel documents and the pending charges against him,

Ever been able to fly without one?

So its more then obvious he was asked to go and recived orders from the very top of Chinese leaders & officials

He's a walking gold mine why wouldn't they

reply to post by TritonTaranis


Would he keep the encryption key with the material if he did not want anyone to access it?

What makes you think he could not reveal just as many secrets about these other governments?

Did you watch this?

link to Greenwald speech

Originally posted by Joneselius
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

It seems to be you that lacks understanding on this issue.

You haven't once addressed what a complete tyrant would do with all this 'harmless data stored'. It's STORED for a reason, to be used later]

Well this is simply not true there is a limit on how long information is stored, and for many reason

And when we talk about a decade worth of an entire populations information this make it even more impossible for somebody to snoop directly

it would be easier to use keyword searchers and computers to do the work which i don't think you can claim to be a threat to anyone, so as there is any new information later on certain suspects this can be accessed given a court order to access it

its not so they can find more employees to read it all for no good reason as its clearly impossible

Originally posted by MsAphrodite
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

Would he keep the encryption key with the material if he did not want anyone to access it?

What makes you think he could not reveal just as many secrets about these other governments?

Did you watch this?

link to Greenwald speech

Forget that its irrelevant

Firstly ask yourself why he would take it at all?

When you go on Holiday, you don't pack things your don't need, all Snowden packed was vast quantities of government secrets that do not have anything to do with what he was exposing

reply to post by TritonTaranis

Watch your streets become flooded with drugs, terrorist explosions & bomb threats, welfare cheats milking the system, and your military secrets and defense programs stolen again and again until your dealing with an invasion threat from the ever stronger Russian, Chinese, Iran, North Korea, Alliance

I think you're the one who's paranoid.

the anti west brigade

What exactly is the anti-west brigade? Or is this same term along the same lines as anti-American - that is, used to stifle any debate or criticism?

Edward Snowdon had a basic understanding of Mandarin, was deeply interested in martial arts, and listed Buddhism as his religion

And where are these aspersions quoted from?

and then exile himself handing this treasure trove of information over to Russian & Chinese Intelligence?

You know this for a fact? This is based on what?

What people are missing is the fact these CLAIMS that the public is being spied on are FALSE, pointless & impossible, the only truth is... that these NSA "national security" GCHQ programs "COULD POTENTIALLY" be "MISUSED" for spying & snooping directly on innocent US/UK citizens, but why? that is an utterly stupid and pointless Idea, not to mention IMPOSSIBLE to achieve,

You know this how? Unless you work for one of the intelligence agencies, which at this stage I'm not discounting. I think it's more likely you're just in denial about what your government has been doing.

it is only natural for us to question and try to understand just what the truth maybe in all this, based on the facts we have and logical progression of thinking, ignoring all the MSN dis-info from both sides IE Western MSN and Russian & Chinese et-el

That's right...and then you go and post a video from Russia Today.

So its so obvious this media circus is just a cover story and a massive farce and without them a country is essentially defenseless from these ever increasing threats in our modern day civilized world, that's of course if we want to keep it civilized & safe form internal and external threats, and here is the thing... who are those external threats... China? Russia? its no secret the Chinese have been stealing technology and gathering Intel on many western countries, or weaken these defenses

Oh yes so utterly obvious! Well you've solved it! Thanks for enlightening us all with your wisdom.


Seriously take a few deep breaths and go have a lie down.

Sarcasm aside, I'm afraid I respectfully disagree with your premise that Snowden is some sort of Russian/Chinese spy. However you're entitled to your opinion.

reply to post by TritonTaranis


It is quite possible that the United States of America is being ruled by a single person at the NSA right now.
Think today's version of J. Edgar Hoover.... except he(or she) has access to everyone's communications that are electronic.

That bothers me. If it hasn't happened already, why couldn't it happen? Better yet, why wouldn't it happen?

Originally posted by TritonTaranis

Originally posted by MsAphrodite
reply to post by TritonTaranis

 

Would he keep the encryption key with the material if he did not want anyone to access it?

What makes you think he could not reveal just as many secrets about these other governments?

Did you watch this?

link to Greenwald speech

Forget that its irrelevant

Firstly ask yourself why he would take it at all?

When you go on Holiday, you don't pack things your don't need, all Snowden packed was vast quantities of government secrets that do not have anything to do with what he was exposing

FAIL... he is exposing government corruption. He's given up everything for this. He could be sitting somewhere anonymous and rich if he were doing what you claim.

reply to post by TritonTaranis

If you're not a threat to our socierty why you so worried about a computer storing information? that will never be read?

How do you know it will never be read? The fact is you don't.

Its trust these people don't have the time & interest or authorization to snoop on you for no good reason

How do you know? Do you work for the intelligence services? Are you familiar with the technology and computer systems of the NSA? Judging by this thread you made, I very much doubt it.

the fact is these programs are well within the law and are no different to CREDIT CHECKS which you have from banks or credit loaners, hell i would love to go into a bank and not have my credit history pulled up and not refused a loan i had no intention of paying back, but just as these checks are important for the system, so are these programs for National Security

I don't think I've seen anyone act as such a huge apologist for government actions on this site as you have.