Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by adjensen


No, Hebrews says that man is destined to die only once. It says nothing about miracles being the exception.

Could you point out where it says anything about a miracle? Because I see nothing in that whole chapter that even alludes to a miracle.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Please show me where it says in the Bible that Elijah never died.

Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11 NIV)

That work for you? He's alive when he's taken up, and there's no death in heaven, so it's not rational to say that he ever died.

No that doesn't work for me. The scripture describes a rapturous event. Not necessarily the end of Elijah's earthly existence. He obviously was on earth when he wrote that letter.

Also, please explain how Elijah wrote a letter, years after his whirlwind event?

He's with God, who's to say what he can and can't do there?

PULEEEEEZE! Letters don't drop from heaven!

Elijah died. Just like everybody else.

Originally posted by windword
PULEEEEEZE! Letters don't drop from heaven!

Given an omnipotent God, whom Elijah was with...

Prove it.

Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by Akragon

 

Oh, relax my friend. No need to get bent out of shape. Perhaps, you are reading a little too much into it, and finding something that is not there? According to you I must have taken it out of context, because it does not mesh well with your interpretation. Which is fine by me, and we can agree to disagree.

However, I cannot find any link between Christianty and Reincarnation. I found a scriptural passage, and even looked at some of the long held tradition on the topic. Perhaps, my humble research pales in comparison to yours? Please, do me the honor of contextualizing the biblical quote mentioned in my previous post. I am curious to see what your take is on it. Indulge me! Thanks for the comments!

Im quite relaxed actually... I just get tired of going over hebrews 9 with people... It is the most misinterpreted/misused verse in the entire bible... And its always the verse people use to reject reincarnation... And the fact is the topic isn't even mentioned... Many people don't even read what the chapter is about... They google reincarnation and bible... And find hundreds of christian sites that use it to reject said topic... When it has absolutely nothing to do with reincarnation what so ever... The chapter is about whether or not Jesus had to die more then once to save... Start with 9:1 and read it to the end... Theres only a few verses in that chapter...

Not a single verse in the entire book is a rejection of reincarnation... Because there is no connection between christianity and reincarnation... The early church fathers rejected it as heresy... But not all of them... In fact there was a few of then that completely supported it...

But that is not to say that there is no connection with what Jesus taught and reincarnation...

I've already linked two of my threads dealing with the subject...

Take a look at those

reply to post by Murgatroid

When I began to see that reincarnation was connected to false religions, that's when I knew that it was just another ploy to mislead people away from the truth.

Is it not possible for a family ancestor to visit me in a dream and share a memory of his or her life with me from a long time ago? Whats wrong with that?

I bet its possible for people to confuse the dream with their own experience and think they lived a former life too. Thats where the "former lives" (reincarnation) probably comes from.

People speak of meeting passed family members all the time. You would cite the religious edict that says all spirits are "of the devil"?

Riiiight...

Its okay to update our understanding of things a little, you know.

reply to post by adjensen


There is no place in the Bible, that I know of, that claims that Elijah was a man who never died. I think it would be something they might mention.

Since he is said to have written a letter, years after his abduction, we can call that proof that God dropped him back off at home, after his heavenly tour, and then continued to live his life and then died.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree

Originally posted by Akragon
Christians can't accept reincarnation because the idea destroys the foundation of their belief system....

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Which means no more control... no more fear based conversions.... its all over if reincarnation is accepted

Born again means exactly what it says.... rebirth...

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Ahem...the backbone of Christianity is not fear of hell...it's the love of Christ.
Born again means born into the body of Christ....not born into a body of flesh..
The idea of hell is logical when you understand it's purpose...hint:Hell was not intended for humans...

Unbelievers will be sent to hell....but hell is temporary, whereas the Lake of Fire is eternal.....if you insist on unbelief, just make sure when you get the chance, you avoid the Lake of Fire....

A2D

So because i'm not christian and don't believe the same things you do... i must be an unbeliever...

How very christian of you...

reply to post by windword


There was more than just that biblical passage. I cited some other sources. Please explain to me how the ressurection of Lazarus constitutes your opinion of it being reincarnation? Through my interpretation, and in my humble opinion, Lazarus was still the Lazarus of old, and brought back to life by Christ. He did not inherit a new soul. His soul remained. If you see it some other way? That is all well and fine. Although, the consensus among theologians, Christian tradition, and biblical foundation tells a different tale. You cite Origen as if he supported the concept of reincarnation?

Ante-Nicene Fathers/Volume IX/Origen on Matthew/Origen's Commentary on Matthew/Book XIII/Chapter 1

. . . it does not appear to me that by Elijah the soul is spoken of, lest I should fall into the dogma of transmigration, which is foreign to the church of God, and not handed down by the Apostles, nor anywhere set forth in the Scriptures; for it is also in opposition to the saying that “things seen are temporal,” . . .

That looks like a matter of conflict to me? Although, if you see something else? Great! Please permit to agree to disagree with you. Now in the matter of Origen, he wrote some fascinating stuff, and by all accounts was a brilliant man. Though in his day, he did stir up some hornet's nests with some of his views. I made no comparison to Origen and the sources I quoted. You did. With that said, I would not go so far as to call those men whom I quoted baffoons. They just saw that the belief in reincarnation with regard to Christianity as being foolish. They were brilliant in their own right in matters of theology. Thanks for the comments!

reply to post by adjensen

If you want to read it literally, as you apparently want to, you'd have to conclude that he's saying that we return to our birth mother's womb, which is ridiculous. Read the whole thing, in context -- he's talking about birth and death, and how we have nothing at either. It has nothing to do with reincarnation.

You're right that is ridiculous...

Obviously he would be speaking of a future mother... Not his present one...

In context... That passage in Job is clearly speaking of birth and death... AND reincarnation

Theres no other explanation... People choose to reject it only because their religion tells them its heresy...

Yet if one doesn't belong to that religion... And reads any of the passages i've given... The conclusion is obvious

reply to post by intrptr

Is it not possible for a family ancestor to visit me in a dream and share a memory of his or her life with me from a long time ago? Whats wrong with that? I bet its possible for people to confuse the dream with their own experience and think they lived a former life too. Thats where the "former lives" (reincarnation) probably comes from.

The memory is a complex thing. I have had dreams where my ancestors were all congregated around my bed. I've had very vivid dreams in which I was someone else. But I have always known the difference from those experiences and my recollections of past lives. Just like I know the difference of the memories of the experience I have in reading a book or watching a movie. Somehow my mind can separate the experience.

I can't prove it scientifically. But there is a distinct difference with the various memory experiences, for me anyway.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

There is no place in the Bible, that I know of, that claims that Elijah was a man who never died. I think it would be something they might mention.

Elijah was clearly assumed into heaven. That's what the bit in Kings says, and there is nothing that contradicts it. Whether you personally believe that it should have been written in a form that you would, personally, recognize is not really relevant.

Well just caught up reading to this point. Whew… oh well I was hoping this would become a philosophical discussion but is more about biblical interpretations of scripture. I am not really into that stuff but I will read the thread a little tomorrow and see if there is any type of consensus he he.. I kind of doubt it though.

Just throwing this out there. Some reincarnation philosophy says that we are all one spirit experiencing multiple lives which means you are me I am you we have been or will be Jesus and Buddha at some point.

When you remove the concept of time which some science says is an illusion to begin with it becomes very easy to understand when thinking nonlinear. I guess that kind of fits in many religions we are one the trinity and so forth. Well that’s food for thought.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

If you want to read it literally, as you apparently want to, you'd have to conclude that he's saying that we return to our birth mother's womb, which is ridiculous. Read the whole thing, in context -- he's talking about birth and death, and how we have nothing at either. It has nothing to do with reincarnation.

You're right that is ridiculous...

Okay, so you agree that a person returning to their own mother's womb is ridiculous.

Obviously he would be speaking of a future mother...

That's where you make your leap of logic that isn't supported by the text.

If you read it literally, it means you go back to your birth mother's womb.

If you read it as it is laid out, it refers to birth and death.

There is nothing in that passage that says anything about "a future mother" -- it is clearly about birth and death, period.

reply to post by adjensen


No... If you read it literally it means you return to your mother's womb... There's only one way to do that...

Its not a leap in logic... Its the only logical explanation...

Even nicodemus tried the same arguement as you are... "how can we return to the womb"

Theres only ONE way to do that... So obviously job was not talking about his current mother...

He said i will return to the womb... Its pretty blatant... hes talking about more then just life and death

reply to post by windword

I've had very vivid dreams in which I was someone else.

That right there is what I call "sharing Memories". But we may think that it is us. Just one possible explanation, I don't really know.

I too have had vivid dreams of meeting others that are strangers, but familiar at the same time. And I have met all of them (family) at once. Instead of them around my bed, I saw them through a screen in a movie theatre. I recognized some of their clothing (like hats they wore) when I knew them in real life. Many others were unknown to me.

Its a kick, eh?

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree

Originally posted by Akragon
Christians can't accept reincarnation because the idea destroys the foundation of their belief system....

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Which means no more control... no more fear based conversions.... its all over if reincarnation is accepted

Born again means exactly what it says.... rebirth...

And it is by no means a goal... though perhaps a little better then a lake of fire...

At least its logical... while the idea of hell has no basis in logic

edit on 27-6-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Ahem...the backbone of Christianity is not fear of hell...it's the love of Christ.
Born again means born into the body of Christ....not born into a body of flesh..
The idea of hell is logical when you understand it's purpose...hint:Hell was not intended for humans...

Unbelievers will be sent to hell....but hell is temporary, whereas the Lake of Fire is eternal.....if you insist on unbelief, just make sure when you get the chance, you avoid the Lake of Fire....

A2D

So because i'm not christian and don't believe the same things you do... i must be an unbeliever...

How very christian of you...

I didn't call you an unbeliever. I was elaborating. Putting words in my mouth....How very convenient of you...

A2D

(I wasn't saying "you" as in specifically YOU...it was more "anyone in general"...you know- "if ANYONE insists on unbelief"...)

reply to post by Akragon


Thanks for getting back to me. I am glad you are calm and composed, because there are some people that get bent out of shape over these topics. With regard to Hebrews, that one line should clear things up about reincarnation? Simple and to the point. That is only my opinion. We often tend to make things more complicated than they should be. With respect to you, I will re-read the text in its entirety.

In response to the history of this topic as mentioned by you? In the early years of Christianity this topic was a matter of heated debate among Church fathers.That is very true! It still is, because we are going back and forth about it in the present. The early Church leaders ironed out the differences and devised a broad consensus that reincarnation is not applicable to Christianity. That is the fact of the matter. In the meantime, I will take a look at the links you mentioned. Thanks for the comments.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


My mistake then my friend...

I've come to expect christians to group me in with athiest because im not Christian... Similiar to how Athiests assume im Christian because i quote the gospels

My apoligies

reply to post by Akragon


It's quite alright...Mistakes and misunderstandings happen....and it seems to be a lot of miscommunication on my part the majority of the time...I guess I just have an odd way of communicating my thoughts...

A2D

reply to post by Jakes51

Thanks for getting back to me. I am glad you are calm and composed, because there are some people that get bent out of shape over these topics. With regard to Hebrews, that one line should clear things up about reincarnation? Simple and to the point. That is only my opinion. We often tend to make things more complicated than they should be. With respect to you, I will re-read the text in its entirety.

The problem is that reincarnation isn't being discussed in that chapter... As you will see... IF it was mentioned we wouldn't be having this discussion... And christians would actually have something to use as a Rejection of said topic... But its just not there so it can't be used to reject said topic...

Heres an example of using one verse as proof of something...

The story of a Snake