Pre-existence, Reincarnation & Christianity

reply to post by windword


Im a Christian and I remember pre-existing, and discussing with other souls that i don't want to come to earth cause this place sucks, evil, hatred, everyone againsteveryone else, upside down backwards everything.

Still i came to help in my own little way. I wasn't a sinner when i pre-existed. But i do think sin is karma that ways us down and away from God and heaven......

Its part of life here........ breath, eat, sleep, sin.....everyone does it, God understands. Christianity is about ego death and spiritual rebirth into chris-hood based enlightenment. "Not i, but christ in me" ......is an actual experience

reply to post by Jakes51


double post

reply to post by Jakes51


Good find! I wonder about the translation though. It is claimed to be a "new Discovery" these commentaries on Matthew. That's suspicious to me.

St. Jerome (347-420) has been considered the pre-eminent scriptural commentator among the Latin Church Fathers. His Commentary on Matthew, written in 398 and profoundly influential in the West, appears here for the first time in English translation.

ABOUT THE TRANSLATOR:

Thomas P. Scheck is assistant professor of classics and theology at Ave Maria University. He is the translator of two previous volumes in the series, Origen's Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, Books 1-5 and Books 6-10, and author of Origen and the History of Justificationcuapress.cua.edu...

I'd like see to another translation from someone not so bias. His constant disclaimer "that's not what the church teaches" seems forced.

At any rate, Origen is clearly having a problem with Jesus' statement affirming that John is Elijah, but remedies his conundrum by claiming that John the Baptist had 3 spiritual attachments, the Holy Ghost, Elijah and his own soul, all to avoid the plainly obvious "transmutation of the soul" (that the church doesn't teach, lol). His explaination, as translated, is pretty convoluted, in my opinion.

But do not marvel in regard to what is said about Elijah, if, just as something strange happened to him different from all the saints who are recorded, in respect of his having been caught up by a whirlwind into heaven, so his spirit had something of choice excellence, so that not only did it rest on Elisha, but also descended along with John at his birth; and that John, separately, “was filled with the Holy Ghost even from his mother’s womb,” and separately, “came before Christ in the spirit and power of Elijah.” For it is possible for several spirits not only worse, but also better, to be in the same man. David accordingly asks to be established by a free spirit, and that a right spirit be renewed in his inward parts.
www.sacred-texts.com...

Personally, in my mind, having a "patriotic spirit", or acting in the "spirit of fairness" is a far cry from possession, or spiritual attachment. So I don't buy this argument, personally.

I'll stick to what the Bible says that Jesus said, in that John WAS Elijah, not possessed by the spirit of Elijah.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

There is no place in the Bible, that I know of, that claims that Elijah was a man who never died. I think it would be something they might mention.

Since he is said to have written a letter, years after his abduction, we can call that proof that God dropped him back off at home, after his heavenly tour, and then continued to live his life and then died.

There is also no place in the Bible, that I know of, that claims that Elijah was a man who died. I think that would be something they might mention as well.

As a side-note: It's not entirely illogical to assume that Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses of Revelation. As I'm sure you know, the witnesses are eventually killed by the beast....that would be their "once appointed" death...

Just thought I'd throw that out there....it's a possibility.

A2D

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

There is no place in the Bible, that I know of, that claims that Elijah was a man who never died. I think it would be something they might mention.

Elijah was clearly assumed into heaven. That's what the bit in Kings says, and there is nothing that contradicts it. Whether you personally believe that it should have been written in a form that you would, personally, recognize is not really relevant.

Immediatley after his abduction, the bible says that Jehoram began his reign.

2 Kings3
3 Now Jehoram the son of Ahab began to reign over Israel in Samaria the eighteenth year of Jehoshaphat king of Judah, and reigned twelve years
2 Chronicles 21
5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.

12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

Jehoram became king after Elijah's abduction, and years into his reign, he gets a letter from Elijah, criticizing his rule.

Proof that Elijah was still on earth. The whirlwind didn't kill him, and didn't keep him for long.

reply to post by windword


We only know that Elijah was taken sometime during the reign of King Jehoram of Israel. Since King Jehoram of Judah (who received the letter from Elijah) had already been reigning 2-5(depends) years by the time King Jehoram of Israel took the throne, Elijah could have easily sent his letter to King Jehoram of Judah before his ascension into heaven at 2 Kings 2:11.

Also, just curious as to what your response would be...
If Elijah was only to be gone a short time, why would he make such a commitment to Elisha, so much so as to ask for a double portion of his own spirit be given to him? It doesn't seem logical if his journey is to be only temporary, but makes much more sense if granted permanence....What do you think?

A2D

reply to post by intrptr

Originally posted by intrptr
Is it not possible for a family ancestor to visit me in a dream and share a memory of his or her life with me from a long time ago? Whats wrong with that?

I bet its possible for people to confuse the dream with their own experience and think they lived a former life too. Thats where the "former lives" (reincarnation) probably comes from.

I believe what you are describing is very possible.

Heaven's inhabitants are frequently sent to Earth on divine "missions".

Rebecca Springer wrote a book describing this:

"Within the Gates" (formerly titled "Intra Muros" after the Latin for the same phrase and originally published in 1895) is the remarkable account of author Rebecca Springer's experience of being taken to Heaven in her spirit while her body lay dying and unconscious for several weeks.

Springer recounts in vivid detail the things which she saw, heard and tasted in Heaven. She also talks of family and loved ones with whom she was immediately reunited with. She describes meeting Jesus (the Master) for the first time and His incredible love for all of Heaven's inhabitants, as well as His concern for those still on Earth. She describes the heavenly mansions and dwelling places and the way that nothing in Heaven is impure or corrupt. "Not an atom of debris, nor even dust, was visible anywhere," she describes.

She explains how Heaven's inhabitants are frequently engaged in missions or tasks that are an extension of God's callings and gifting in their earth-life. She recounts how artists, musicians, authors and speakers all practice their skills regularly, honing them to perfection with the goal of continuing to use them for God's honor throughout eternity. She even describes her experience of corporate worship at a heavenly temple, and recalling how there were no churches or denominations in Heaven, just one faith for all. Intra Muros

reply to post by windword

First off S&F for this: "Christianity is the religion I know best, but all ideas and input on this subject, regardless of religious affiliations, are welcome."

I always feel yucky and horrible when I venture into a thread called "Question for Christians, ..."

why do the Christian churches so adamently reject it's possible reality?

Is it because it would make Jesus' supposed resurrection allegorical and not such a big deal, ...?

I would pick yes on the one I quoted. For some reason Christians require a bodily resurrection and ascension of Jesus into heaven, even though they hold the contradictory doctrine that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of god.

Now back to the other questions:

Is a shiny, brand new, innocent soul created every time a woman's egg is fertilized? If so, doesn't that make the soul a biological manifestation? How then can one justify the belief that the soul doesn't die, but the body does?

In my former life as a student of Epicurus I learned about atoms and atomic theory. The soul is made up of soul material atoms, and is thus subject to decay just like the body is. Moreover, even during life, there is a constant flow of atoms that are sometimes part of your body and sometimes not. In the same way soul atoms are not static, they sometimes are part of your soul and sometimes not.

We never determined whether soul atoms were biological or something non-biological. But now a days, I don't think there's much difference since not all atoms in the body are parts of organic chains, some could also be inorganic, but that's chemistry and I don't remember all that much chemistry.

I don't justify the belief that the soul doesn't die.

If Jesus was correct, and all the "born again" are bestowed with eternal life, and are free as the wind, is it possible that those souls could choose to reincarnate in a new earthly body?

There seems to be some free spirits, I've got one that is part of me, that I interact with as if it were not part of me, and yet it isn't me. Shamans know these things. I'm pretty sure that this free spirit I mention did in fact choose me, for whatever reason.

When I die, this free spirit may choose some one else, or maybe not. If yes, then the new person will probably benefit. But I am not that new person who benefits. That is some one else entirely. That is not me reborn.

[Declaimer: these are my beliefs and opinions which I state as fact for the sake of brevity, I'm not claiming to have absolute knowledge by any means]

Ok guys, I really would like to understand what exactly you think Jesus Christ is teaching here. How you see reincarnation working in your life. Why do you need the bible to support your belief?

I have some functional questions about reincarnation, how it works.
reply to post by windword

I would hope someone who destroyed as many lives as, say, Hitler, would be forced to reincarnate, again and again, into a war torn, disease and famine ridden area and be made to suffer exactly what he inflicted onto others. One lifetime for every person who was affected.

Winword: you said you wish hitler to reincarnate over and over again. A punishment for his sins? Hell?
Who decides whos good is good and who gets a better life who determines what is better?

Exercise:
If hitler is on one end of the spectrum and let's say Mother Teresa's on the other where do you fit in that scale. What do you hope to be reincarnated as.?

reply to post by Akragon

I would hate to be reborn again... I want to do it right this time around.... because I hate what this world is becoming... and has been for eons...

Akragon: you say you hope you make it this time. How do you know your not already screwed. Is there a meter that shows how naughty or nice you have been, so you can anticipate your next life .
How far along in the process do you think you are. How many times have you been reincarnated? Is there a way to find out.?

IF reincarnation exists... Theres no need for Hell... Which is the backbone of their religion... Fear of Hell...

Why do you hope you do it right this time around? What are you afraid of?
Is there a great reincarnator who decides your next life?

No... Im saying he lived his life.... Died... And God said.... back ya go... have fun!

Would you in someways fear this reincarnator/god who could decide you didn't make a big enough difference to humanity. and thrust you back to start all over again?

reply to post by pthena

In my former life as a student of Epicurus I learned about atoms and atomic theory. The soul is made up of soul material atoms, and is thus subject to decay just like the body is. Moreover, even during life, there is a constant flow of atoms that are sometimes part of your body and sometimes not. In the same way soul atoms are not static, they sometimes are part of your soul and sometimes not.

The spark of life lights the "soular" fire. This reminds me of "Kerlian Aura Photography.

I don't justify the belief that the soul doesn't die.

There seems to be some free spirits, I've got one that is part of me, that I interact with as if it were not part of me, and yet it isn't me. Shamans know these things. I'm pretty sure that this free spirit I mention did in fact choose me, for whatever reason.

Interesting. Do you think that the soul dies with the body? Do you think that these "free spirits" could have once been human, or do you think they are something else?

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

Also, just curious as to what your response would be... If Elijah was only to be gone a short time, why would he make such a commitment to Elisha, so much so as to ask for a double portion of his own spirit be given to him? It doesn't seem logical if his journey is to be only temporary, but makes much more sense if granted permanence....What do you think?

I believe in a spiritual hierarchy, and I think we are possibly awarded growth of our soul bodies with each incarnation, if we do well. If I had a face to face with God, I would also ask for a more powerful essence.

I don't think it's unusual for the Bible God to make a commitment to Elijah because he fancied him, as he did Noah, Jacob, Abraham, Moses and David. He made promises, commitments and covenants with them because he had a shine for them.

reply to post by Observationalist

Winword: you said you wish hitler to reincarnate over and over again. A punishment for his sins? Hell?

More of a teaching tool than a punishment. We are to learn and to grow. But, we are also here to help one another.

Who decides whos good is good and who gets a better life who determines what is better?

We do.

Exercise: If hitler is on one end of the spectrum and let's say Mother Teresa's on the other where do you fit in that scale.

I've been all over the scale, but I've been pretty good lately.

What do you hope to be reincarnated as.?

A pampered house cat.

Our bodies are not traps, although many think they are. Our bodies are vehicles of self discovery. Eventually, one by one, we remember who we are, really. Who we were before we were we. When this cycle is over we will create our own bodies. We will BE who we are.

Imagine the transporter in the show "Star Trek" and how it was able to beam people through space. Well, perhaps a soul can travel through space and time, get to where it wants to go and then manifest a body that fits that environment.

The point of reincarnation is one of evolution of the spiritual body.

reply to post by Observationalist

Akragon: you say you hope you make it this time. How do you know your not already screwed

I might be wrong about exactly why i am here... Its quite possible i wasn't returned because i was bad in a previous life... I may have chosen to return of my own free will...

And i know im not already "screwed" because no one is screwed... Even the worst people have the chance to redeem themselves... I don't believe the Father would destroy his children

Is there a meter that shows how naughty or nice you have been, so you can anticipate your next life .
How far along in the process do you think you are. How many times have you been reincarnated? Is there a way to find out.?

Many people recall past lives through meditation... I've never been interested enough in my past lives to bother attempting to find out about them... I don't live in the past... I live in the now...

And since we are all present in this moment, we are all in the same boat... Im no further along then anyone else might be... We'll find out the details when we return home

Why do you hope you do it right this time around? What are you afraid of?
Is there a great reincarnator who decides your next life?

Its not that im afraid of anything... If i must return after this time so be it... Its not that this world is a bad place.... Its beautiful and majestic... Its only us that make it horrible...

We decide our next life by what we do in this one...

Would you in someways fear this reincarnator/god who could decide you didn't make a big enough difference to humanity. and thrust you back to start all over again?

Why would i fear God if i am the reason i am here?

IF i chose to return to help... I put myself here

IF i am here because i was an idiot in a previous life... How can i blame God for my actions?

reply to post by windword


The Bible states, "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Hebrews 9:27.

Once means no reincarnation. Jesus never supported that notion, either.

Each soul is created at the moment of physical conception. It's possible that the soul causes the conception, that the physical is created because the soul is. We don't know exactly how that works. Doesn't matter, though, because God knows.

You asked someone else what it is that we need Jesus to save us from. The simple answer is the consequences of our sin, our disobedience to the laws of God.

reply to post by windword

First off, in case you didn't catch the subtlety of my wording, by "former life" I meant when I was in High School, I studied Epicurus. I wasn't exactly claiming to be a reincarnated student of Epicurus.

Interesting. Do you think that the soul dies with the body? Do you think that these "free spirits" could have once been human, or do you think they are something else?

Yes, souls die.

The free spirits may once have been human. They may be immortal even. I'm not sure what things are general and what things are special about special people.

In the case of my spirit, she may have been a girl who died young. I have done duty as psychopomp for many people. I don't know if she took me to the girl in blue to serve as psychopomp many centuries ago, or took me to herself many centuries ago. But in any case, I stayed with her through beheading. So she wasn't alone. If that was her then maybe she appreciated it, what I did. I don't know.

reply to post by adjensen


Origen believed in and taught the pre-existence of the soul. For the soul to pre-exist before being born means that the soul exists apart from the physical body, and therefore the soul can re-embody time and again. The Emperor had Origen anathematized over this concept.

reluctant-messenger.com...

reincarnation.ws...
So, while the Church maintains that Origen did not teach reincarnation, it is true that he taught the pre-existence of the soul. In other words, the soul exist with or without the corporeal body.

See what mean people?

That same passage every single time... And we'll see it a few more times before this thread is finished...

It gets tiring explaining it over and over...

I sware its like christians are programed(brainwashed?) to give the old hebrews 9 response as soon as they hear reincarnation!


:bnghd:

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

There are many other Bible verses which are suggestive of reincarnation. One episode in particular from the healing miracles of Christ seems to point to reincarnation: "And as he was passing by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who has sinned, this man or his parents, that he should be born blind?" Jesus answered, 'Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents, but the works of God were to be made manifest in him.'" (John 9:1)

The disciples ask the Lord if the man himself could have committed the sin that led to his blindness. Given the fact that the man has been blind from birth, we are confronted with a provocative question. When could he have made such transgressions as to make him blind at birth? The only conceivable answer is in some prenatal state. The question as posed by the disciples explicitly presupposes prenatal existence. It will also be noted that Christ says nothing to dispel or correct the presupposition.

reluctant-messenger.com...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Read in context, that scene with Nicodemus is obviously about a spiritual rebirth. It has nothing to do with reincarnation (or baptism, hopefully pre-empting a "truejew" diatribe, lol.) You were born physically, you must be reborn spiritually.

its exactly in context... the church tells you he meant spiritual rebirth... yet he said born again... Born of water and spirit... which is rebirth.

Listening to what others tell you as opposed to just reading what it says...

And how do you know what his "actual meaning" was? Are you claiming that you are Jesus or Nicodemus?

That's what It says... You must be born again....

DO you really think Jesus would be telling a Pharisee he must be spiritually reborn when they're completely convinced their ways are correct?

No no... He said it to a man who would never change his ways... he must be reborn into this world...

Its obvious... Christian interpretation of that scene is incorrect in my humble opinion

It's obvious that your interpretation is seeing what you want to see. Let's look it another way per scripture

let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22

It's not reincarnation. Our hearts - thoughts, our mind, our conscience. This goes all the way back to Genesis and the gospel message "Be ye reconciled to God". Why did Adam and Eve hide from God and fashion fig leaves in an attempt to cover their nakedness? Why did they feel shame when they were naked all along? What is religion all about in this physical world? It's what resulted from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and the shame felt. Muslims bow and pray five times per day in an attempt to "get right" with God, Catholics count their rosary beads as they repetitively pray in an attempt to "get right" with God, Hindus alter their consciousness in an attempt to be yoked with the spirit world in an attempt to "get right" with their concept of God, others do different rituals and follow regulations....this is religion and it is of man. Guilty conscience, shame, drives us to religions of this earth but not to God. We still hide from Him and fashion our fig leaves despite the gospel message "Be YE reconciled to God", despite the fact that our sins are forgiven. If we all notice, Jesus Christ never accused nor condemned because He came to save. He came to reconcile man to God by leading us into repentance for our behaviours with the full assurance that it is God who saves. He does so through removing the guilt and shame of our actions which keep us in the religion of men. When we come to know that everything we ever did was forgiven, the memory of it does not go away but the guilt does. Most of us have done something in our lives that so heavily weighs upon our conscious that we continually work and strive to make it "right". This is religion whether it be Freemasonry through its "good works", law keeping, penitence, whipping ourselves etc. In order to reconcile to God however requires acknowledgement of that deed and acceptance that it was forgiven by the only One who ever mattered - Our Creator. From "having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience" I can move on extricating myself from religion and accept God's offer to learn to walk with Him - as in the garden. Reconciliation as a new man, in the new creation, partaking of the Tree of Life. Jesus said "Follow me". Be in Christ, the new creation reconciled to Our Creator. Jesus IS the new creation, but this world is fighting to keep the old, as in Adam.

reply to post by WhoKnows100


I prefer not to base my beliefs on people that never existed... Like adam and eve...

To each their own i suppose...

Thanks though