Opinion: A plea from an exhausted [Human] woman

reply to post by wildtimes

I sacrificed having a "paying job" for that, WILLINGLY, because parenting IS THE MOST IMPORTANT JOB IN THE WORLD.

i don't want to question you efforts but i personally find the language objectionable. If you feel you "sacrificed" something for parenting then the problem is wanting everything.
If a man says he sacrificed his best years in working and providing for wife and kids then, i'l like to ask him was there anything else that he wanted to do? And if yes then why he did what he did?
The same question to a woman.

You also didnt answer my other post where i pointed and questioned the wisdom of degradation of motherhood and praising of highly educated/career women!

reply to post by logical7

All I EVER wanted was to raise a famiily. I didn't care about having a "career" - working with kids and youth WAS my career. What I meant by 'sacrifice' is that I REJECTED the materialistic life of "double income household" - I didn't have children to hand them to someone else while I "pursued a career".

No. Parenting was my career. As my kids got older, I became part of the education system. I worked with kids, and I loved it. From there, I went to working with families, as well as adults and children individually. I went to graduate school with the singular purpose of becoming a youth-worker and family counselor, and I did it until I burned out from the stress.

My last position before leaving the "paid social workforce" was as a parent educator, visiting first-time parents in their homes on a weekly basis to help them learn how to best nurture their babies to be healthy, intelligent, well-adjusted, and happy people. My "swan song" - my final public address - was at the National convention for the Prevent Child Abuse Association as a presenter on early childhood best practice and understanding childhood development through the adolescent years (which end at around age 25-30).

It was standing room only, and I got an a standing ovation for my presentation.

Now, I am no longer working in the "non-profit" or "education" fields. I spend my time further educating myself, and doing what I can to make a difference in this world.

You and I have a history of "language barrier" problems, logical7. It isn't the "fault" of either of us - but English words carry meanings that are different in different contexts. I chose parenting over money and wealth. Too many people have children just because their biological clocks tell them to - then after 6 weeks they give that precious new life to a relative stranger to raise....so they can keep their "careers" and "wealth." I think it's a travesty.

reply to post by wildtimes

I chose parenting over money and wealth. Too many people have children just because their biological clocks tell them to - then after 6 weeks they give that precious new life to a relative stranger to raise....so they can keep their "careers" and "wealth." I think it's a travesty.

you deserve a standing ovation for being the mother you were and still are
i respect you and i have learned from you.

In Islam the 1st right of the children begin even before they are concieved. Their 1st right is that a person chooses a good mother/father for them. i.e. I choose my wife with care, a spouse who wants to have and raise kids and who loves kids.

reply to post by logical7

In Islam the 1st right of the children begin even before they are concieved. Their 1st right is that a person chooses a good mother/father for them. i.e. I choose my wife with care, a spouse who wants to have and raise kids and who loves kids.

Exactly. On that much, at least, we agree completely.

i pointed and questioned the wisdom of degradation of motherhood and praising of highly educated/career women!

I would say "highly educated" does not = "career". Mothers SHOULD be highly educated! Mothering IS a career, and should be valued for what it is. One doesn't need a PAYCHECK to be contributing to society. That's why I keep saying it's about PARENTING, NOT about religion.

Thanks for following along for long enough to see what my bottom line premise is.. Appreciated.

reply to post by wildtimes

That's why I keep saying it's about PARENTING, NOT about religion.

well i do agree that parenting is the most important job that a person will do in her/his life in this world.
In Islam good parenting is worship of Allah as worship is nothing but doing what we were made to do and the instinct of parenting/motherhood is deeply coded in women.
Women have the power to go against it and neglect their children and prefer forwarding their career etc and that is disobedience to Allah as its injustice to the children who have a right to get good parenting.

reply to post by logical7

Women have the power to go against it and neglect their children and prefer forwarding their career etc and that is disobedience to Allah as its injustice to the children who have a right to get good parenting.

Those women ALSO have the power to REFUSE to have children at all to begin with.
In "the West" women are allowed to decide whether to bear children or not (except for the Catholics who toe the line on no contraception and having babies every year - how exhausting!)

My opinion is that women who want a "career" in the workforce or by focusing on their own interests should not be having children to begin with. And men should not be "forcing" them to. It is irresponsible to have children and then not raise them oneself.

reply to post by wildtimes

(except for the Catholics who toe the line on no contraception and having babies every year - how exhausting!)

While that may be the official stance of the church, I think you might be quite shocked at how many Catholics completely disagree with that in the privacy of their homes, especially today. It may be different in particular regions of the country but around here there are only a handful of Catholic families who have more than 2 children, and that certainly didn't occur due to abstinence. Gone are the days of squeezing out as many children as able, even most of the Mormon people in the area have jumped off of THAT bandwagon!

Sorry for going off topic WT- just felt the need to throw it into the mix.

reply to post by wildtimes

My opinion is that women who want a "career" in the workforce or by focusing on their own interests should not be having children to begin with. And men should not be "forcing" them to. It is irresponsible to have children and then not raise them oneself.

I'm going to be very wicked here, and speak from a man's perspective, since I'm tired of all the heavy spiritual stuff.

I had an interesting conversation with my daughter yesterday. She and I pretty much agree that her mother's parenting skills are the pits.

It went like this: I felt no need for children. She(ex-wife) wanted children, and swore that she would do all the necessary things to raise them. So we had two children, then I got fixed.

She then started a career. And since she "was working hard" she decided that she deserved to "party hard". So I raised the children since I had all the leisure time of working sans partying.

Eventually, when she left me to live with another more interesting fellow, she had two more children. I raised them too. Pretty funny how things work out.

reply to post by wildtimes

My opinion is that women who want a "career" in the workforce or by focusing on their own interests should not be having children to begin with. And men should not be "forcing" them to. It is irresponsible to have children and then not raise them oneself.

yes i agree that a couple should have children when both really want them and also understand what responsibility they are agreeing to take, the story of Pthena gives a good idea about how it works out otherwise.
Sadly most women are fed the idea that they can "achieve everything" and so they go for kids and career and most fail in at least one.

Someone needs to erase the idea of being the "Super Woman" from their heads.
Otherwise the society will get ruined when kids are raised by the "TV" which glorifies the shallow things and promotes violence and lust.

reply to post by logical7

Sadly most women are fed the idea that they can "achieve everything" and so they go for kids and career and most fail in at least one.

Someone needs to erase the idea of being the "Super Woman" from their heads.

And you know what, logical7? That is EXACTLY what I did when I was a counselor and women who were depressed, overwhelmed, disappointed, confused and exhausted came to me for help. EXACTLY what I told them.

reply to post by littled16

While that may be the official stance of the church, I think you might be quite shocked at how many Catholics completely disagree with that in the privacy of their homes, especially today. It may be different in particular regions of the country but around here there are only a handful of Catholic families who have more than 2 children, and that certainly didn't occur due to abstinence. Gone are the days of squeezing out as many children as able, even most of the Mormon people in the area have jumped off of THAT bandwagon!

Sorry for going off topic WT- just felt the need to throw it into the mix.

Oh, I'm well aware that MOST Catholics do NOT follow that archaic "service your husband to make babies and do your wifely duty but don't enjoy it" thing. I know most of them use some form of contraception.

Ironically, I have two extended family members who DID have a bunch o' babies - one of them converted from a secular/protestant upbringing and married a Catholic guy who she met at West Point (who just retired) and became a devout "nutter" type of Catholic who is homeschooling her little brood in a Latin-based ultra-uber-traditional Catholic manner, living on a farm (which is fine), growing their own food, etc. Almost "Amish" in her devotions.

The other was an only child of a secular special-ed teacher and a Catholic seminary-drop out with schizophrenia. She was coddled and pampered and controlled beyond sanity after almost dying of Reye's syndrome as a little girl. She was raised Catholic at her Catholic parent's insistence (who is still devoutly Catholic). When she got married, she stayed "Catholic" and now has 5 (or 6?) kids and is estranged from her other parent. Which I attribute to her having to be "the perfect child" and never allowed to go through a proper adolescence.

But yes, I'm aware that the vast majority of Catholics have discarded those tenets, even if the Vatican still upholds them.

Good point, though - and you know what? Both of those cousins are EXHAUSTED.

It brings up another thought - interfaith marriages have extra challenges to success, just as interracial marriages do. I'm not saying they are wrong, just that they pose additional challenges. I also know a young woman who was an only child - the 'heiress' to the vast power and estate that her father amassed as a Wall Street Big Bank Exec....and she, too, was a mess - her parents were a Catholic and a Jew (I don't know which was which) - and she was raised with NO KNOWLEDGE of religion WHATSOEVER. We were as a group watching Religulous, and she didn't have any idea what the movie was talking about.

reply to post by wildtimes

That is EXACTLY what I did when I was a counselor and women who were depressed, overwhelmed, disappointed, confused and exhausted came to me for help. EXACTLY what I told them.

Too bad my ex-wife went to a different counselor, as relayed to me, she advised "take a vacation from being yourself" so they went clubbing together. The counselor ended up divorced too.

reply to post by pthena

She sounds like an absolute drip.

Good for your and her kids that you are around!

reply to post by wildtimes
Believe me, being raised in a family of multiple religious beliefs is no picnic. For years, every week of our lives my sister and I were dragged to Mass by my paternal grandparents on Saturdays, Southern Baptist services by our maternal grandmother on Sundays, to my friend and neighbor's Pentacostal church on Thursday nights, were schooled in Paganism (primarily Wicca with a sprinkling of this and that) by our mother and lectured on Atheism by our father. When kids at school asked what religion we belonged to we quickly changed the subject!

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by wildtimes

That is EXACTLY what I did when I was a counselor and women who were depressed, overwhelmed, disappointed, confused and exhausted came to me for help. EXACTLY what I told them.

Too bad my ex-wife went to a different counselor, as relayed to me, she advised "take a vacation from being yourself" so they went clubbing together. The counselor ended up divorced too.

i feel bad for you, but i can tell you whatever happens, happens for good(for a reason)
maybe the counselor was infected by Fundamentalist Feminist Virus and when they get infected by that only God can help them!!

reply to post by logical7


What a completely mysoginistic and arrogant thing to say. "Poor helpless women, they're nothing but trouble and weak and depraved if left to their own deviced. They need us to keep them in line." Pthena's ex and her counselor have nothing to do with the attitude of men being "superior" thinkers.

Not.
:shk:

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

What a completely mysoginistic and arrogant thing to say. "Poor helpless women, they're nothing but trouble and weak and depraved if left to their own deviced. They need us to keep them in line." Pthena's ex and her counselor have nothing to do with the attitude of men being "superior" thinkers.

Not.
:shk:

i don't think men are "superior" but i do find extremist feminist odd. If they think that men are not better then why try to be like men? Or overtly try to prove that they can do what a man can do! Thats just shallow!
I have told before that women are the deluxe model and men the ordinary.
So why should the deluxe model try to imitate something not that good.

Why to replace their inborn co-operative and compassionate feelings with senseless competitiveness.

Why do they want to be like men? Are men really worth imitating?

Isn't it foolish to leave their own strengths that can help transform the world and glorify and follow the weaknesses of men?

Women have the capability to move men away from their foolishness and wars.
A woman is a mother who with good parenting can transform the world in a few generations but she is being told by these extremist feminist that having and raising kids is for a weak woman who does not have high aspirations.

You want me to join and praise the foolishness? No Thanks!

reply to post by logical7


Thank you for clarifying. That is what I thought your stance was, and I agree with it. You know that already.
Your statement to pthena, however, COULD be taken as a "women are the bane of existence" stance of the patriarchal mindset. The Bible is full of that from the very beginning, and modern Muslims who subjugate their "women" are guilty of it, too, regardless of what Muhammed "meant" - just like lots of "Christians."

reply to post by wildtimes


men subjugate women, they can be of any religion, colour, race and even level of education.
Atheists do it and even Deist do it so it would be nice to seprate inherent human behaviour from the religious association of that human.
The religion actually discourages these actions but how effective it becomes depends how truthfully the human is following the religion.

We can continue to discuss if you agree to make that distinction and keep it in all moods.

reply to post by logical7

it would be nice to seprate inherent human behaviour from the religious association of that human.
The religion actually discourages these actions but how effective it becomes depends how truthfully the human is following the religion.

We can continue to discuss if you agree to make that distinction and keep it in all moods.

We can continue to discuss if you agree to stop saying that "faith in God" makes people "moral." I believe you lost that debate. Atheists, Agnostics and Religious persons ALL are capable of morality. "God" does not have anything to do with it, nor does "religion."

Women have FOREVER been ridiculed in MANY cultures. Yet, - there were a few that revered them (as it is 'we' who give birth to new people). Like in what is now the UK.