The Zimmerman Trial

Originally posted by jam321
You're doing a better job than the prosecution.

At this point a first year law student could do a better job. But then again ... they only can work with what they have. And they don't have 2nd degree murder evidence to work with. Ya' know?

Sorry I haven't read the most recent posts, just the first few pages, but there are things that continue to bother me. It is apparent that Treyvon beat the crap out of Zimmerman, but I can't help but wonder if he was in "fight or flight" mode, because he was in fear for his life, acting in self-defense.

The other thing I can't really wrap my head around is the audio of the screaming. It simply doesn't sound like the screams of a grown man. It sounds like a kid screaming. This aspect of the evidence is something we will never fully ascertain, essentially becoming a moot point.

Just sayin'.

reply to post by MrWendal


I know the PA testified about, just surprised the prosecution hasn't jumped on it. Thanks for the reply..

Peace

Originally posted by jam321
If this MMA training is true, why hasn't the prosecution called in his trainer to testify how good zimmerman was at MMA?

He took lessons. But considering that Martin was on top pounding him .. ground and pound ... I think it's pretty clear just how 'good' Zimmerman was at MMA. (not very).

reply to post by Libertygal


lawofselfdefense.com... pdf of the autopsy report implies that even had martin been landing punches with how and the way he bled out bruises would not have had time to form on the knuckles. it is a pretty informative read and it might solve a few members questions they been having

but because I believe he's LYING; which has made him guilty

Lying wouldn't make a person guilty. That's some bad logic.

Originally posted by Minus
reply to post by WonderBoi

 

So what do you think happened? in details

To be straight honest, i'm even having a hard time believing ANY of this story. Call me crazy, but i feel like this is some kind of staged event. I can't quite put my finger on it...but i don't think it is, what we're being led to believe it is. I feel like this is some kind of psy-op, on the masses. I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of the television. That's why i stopped watching it, years ago. Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. That's all it is! This is just another one of big brother's "distract the public", agenda oriented case. IMHO

HANNITY INTERVIEW BEING PLAYED.

Okay .. this is more like it. Got rid of the book writer. Back to Zimmerman talking again. At this rate, Zimmerman won't have to take the stand. He will have told his story six or more times.

At this point Zimmerman tells Hannity that the voice on the 911 tape is his.
(not that he recognized it but that he ID'd it)
Zimmerman realizes Martin died one hour later at the police station.
Zimmerman says Martin didn't die instantly.
Zimmerman doesn't regret having the gun.
"It was all Gods plan and he won't second guess it" - says Zimmerman in reference to regret carrying the gun (I think)
Why does Zimmerman think Martin beat him up .. Zimmerman says - "he won't assume" and he mentioned the media conjecture (being wrong I'd guess).
Asked how he felt ... Zimmerman says 'he knew he discharged firearm ... scared .. nervous ... scared of being shot by police for having a gun'
He didn't notice Martin in 'bad shape'. Didn't look at him. (my note - I find that strange)
Asked about the media he says he doesn't like their rush to judgement.
Asked about referring to people as 'black male suspects' - he says he described them at the request of dispatchers. He made calls about white and hispanic kids as well. Not just black.

Originally posted by roadgravel

but because I believe he's LYING; which has made him guilty

Lying wouldn't make a person guilty. That's some bad logic.

No....lying reveals their innocence. And i have bad logic??? Geeeeeesh. Do you swear to tell the lie, the whole lie and nothing but the lie; so help you God???

Originally posted by WonderBoi

Originally posted by Minus
reply to post by WonderBoi

 

So what do you think happened? in details

To be straight honest, i'm even having a hard time believing ANY of this story. Call me crazy, but i feel like this is some kind of staged event. I can't quite put my finger on it...but i don't think it is, what we're being led to believe it is. I feel like this is some kind of psy-op, on the masses. I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of the television. That's why i stopped watching it, years ago. Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. That's all it is! This is just another one of big brother's "distract the public", agenda oriented case. IMHO

You seemed alot more enthuastic when you started this thread than you do now

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by MrWendal
"Did the actions of George Zimmerman put into motion the chain of events which lead to the death of Trayvon Martin?"

Absolutely. That's why I thought they should go for manslaughter at the start.
But then the lead detective came on and said that Zimmerman following Martin wasn't illegal.
So now I don't know if LEGALLY he can be guilty of manslaughter.
Morally ... manslaughter is in play. Legally ... I don't know.

As you know, I been saying manslaughter since day one. Just a reminder.

As far as the legality, yes it still applies. Let me explain....

Even though following is not a crime, what it shows is that Zimmerman could have been an agitator to the situation. A provoker of sorts. If he was provoking the situation, then self defense does not apply. If self defense does not apply- he has no defense.

Let me also say this... I noticed some of the questions being asked regarding marks on Trayvon's body, or the lack of I should say, plus the questions and answers about Zimmerman's injuries not being life threatening...I am starting to wonder if the Prosecution plans on suggesting that Zimmerman never tried to defend himself and instead went straight for his gun as a means of defense.

The reason why this would be important is because under the majority self defense laws, the amount of force used to defend yourself is just enough to eliminate the threat. So if you were to punch me in the face, I can not just shoot you for it. However, I would be able to punch you back and get away with it. If my punch knocked you down, I can not jump on you and pound you to a bloody pulp. At that point I would not be defending myself anymore, I would be an attacker. The reason being is because once you were knocked down, you were no longer a threat. Unless you continued to show aggression towards me, then I would be legally able to continue punching. If you were to then escalate the violence to a point I feared for my life ie; grabbed a weapon- then I could shoot you.

This is probably why we see so many statements from the defense about Trayvon preventing Zimmerman from breathing. If Trayvon did prevent Zimmerman from breathing, this would constitute a fear for his life and possibly justify the shooting.

I also suspect that this is why we see the prosecution playing those tapes over and over again where you hear a yelling for help. Doing this serves two purposes.... If you believe it was Trayvon yelling for help, then Zimmerman is not defending himself. If you believe it is Zimmerman yelling for help, then he can breathe cause you have to be able to get air in order to yell. If he can breath, then that calls into question if Zimmerman actually feared for his life. I wouldn't be shocked to see this point being made by the time closing statements roll around.

Originally posted by Minus

Originally posted by WonderBoi

Originally posted by Minus
reply to post by WonderBoi

 

So what do you think happened? in details

To be straight honest, i'm even having a hard time believing ANY of this story. Call me crazy, but i feel like this is some kind of staged event. I can't quite put my finger on it...but i don't think it is, what we're being led to believe it is. I feel like this is some kind of psy-op, on the masses. I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of the television. That's why i stopped watching it, years ago. Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. That's all it is! This is just another one of big brother's "distract the public", agenda oriented case. IMHO

You seemed alot more enthuastic when you started this thread than you do now

I've maintained that viewpoint, from the start. However, i'm playing along with the rest of the crowd. I don't know what happened, but i don't believe it happened (if it happened, at all) the way Zimmerman is telling it.

reply to post by WonderBoi


How do you think he got all his injuries, if he had the upper hand over Martin?

Prosecution next witness - Dr. Valerie Brown .... Medical Examiner. Important Interview
Been a ME for 32 years. Medical degree. Worked in hospitals. Qualified as an expert witness

She's a hired gun for the prosecution ... their witness.

ME describes different kinds of possible wounds.

She says she received a reenactment of the shooting. Photos. DVD Sanford Police Tapes of ZImmerman that night. DVD Medical Examiner Report and Photos with diagrams and autopsy reports, photos, and report about what had happened. Toxicology report. Standard Stuff.

Photos of Zimmerman from the night of the shooting. Injuries insignificant to Zimmerman and not life threatening. Cuts to the back of the head. Same as the photo that everyone has seen of the back of Zimmermans head.

She notes that Zimmerman wasn't incapacitated in any way and walked just fine in the tapes from that night.

The injuries to the head are consistant to the head being struck into concrete. Possibly one time against the concrete.

Break for side bar at the judges bench ...


(note ... the injuries weren't life threatening but that's not what 'justifiable homicide' requires. It only requires that the person being beaten BELIEVE that his life was in danger)

Originally posted by WonderBoi

Originally posted by Minus
reply to post by WonderBoi

 

So what do you think happened? in details

To be straight honest, i'm even having a hard time believing ANY of this story. Call me crazy, but i feel like this is some kind of staged event. I can't quite put my finger on it...but i don't think it is, what we're being led to believe it is. I feel like this is some kind of psy-op, on the masses. I don't believe ANYTHING that comes out of the television. That's why i stopped watching it, years ago. Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. That's all it is! This is just another one of big brother's "distract the public", agenda oriented case. IMHO

This case has been ridiculous from the beginning. Zimmerman killed a child who was minding his own business and wasn't charged because his father is a judge and george is friends with the police department.

So far the prosecutors have done a terrible job and im pretty sure they will throw this case... why? Probably to inflame a race war. Racial tensions are already high, zimmerman getting a slap on the wrist will bring it to an all time high. This is something we definitely don't need right now.

Wow, this medical examiner's testimony is tough for Zimmerman.

She just said that his head injuries do not appear to have been caused by repeated blows to concrete and more than likely were caused by a single blow causing both cuts. She described that injury as "insignificant".

This is a huge blow to a self defense claim. Again- if there is no threat to his life, using deadly force is not self defense.

expert is talkign about the nose wound now describing it as being near the tip of the nose

none of the injuries were life threatening

contusions/abrasions were talked about but not shown,she describes them as very small

she thinks all of the blows could have come from a single punch

zimmerman also has contusions on both sides of his head,dried blood is from laceration on back of head not from the small contusions looking like he got hit on the side of the head a few times but notes the contusions on the side of the head were not life threatening

both contusions COULD have come from one blow providing his head hit concrete

Originally posted by MrWendal

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by MrWendal
"Did the actions of George Zimmerman put into motion the chain of events which lead to the death of Trayvon Martin?"

Absolutely. That's why I thought they should go for manslaughter at the start.
But then the lead detective came on and said that Zimmerman following Martin wasn't illegal.
So now I don't know if LEGALLY he can be guilty of manslaughter.
Morally ... manslaughter is in play. Legally ... I don't know.

As you know, I been saying manslaughter since day one. Just a reminder.

As far as the legality, yes it still applies. Let me explain....

Even though following is not a crime, what it shows is that Zimmerman could have been an agitator to the situation. A provoker of sorts. If he was provoking the situation, then self defense does not apply. If self defense does not apply- he has no defense.

Let me also say this... I noticed some of the questions being asked regarding marks on Trayvon's body, or the lack of I should say, plus the questions and answers about Zimmerman's injuries not being life threatening...I am starting to wonder if the Prosecution plans on suggesting that Zimmerman never tried to defend himself and instead went straight for his gun as a means of defense.

The reason why this would be important is because under the majority self defense laws, the amount of force used to defend yourself is just enough to eliminate the threat. So if you were to punch me in the face, I can not just shoot you for it. However, I would be able to punch you back and get away with it. If my punch knocked you down, I can not jump on you and pound you to a bloody pulp. At that point I would not be defending myself anymore, I would be an attacker. The reason being is because once you were knocked down, you were no longer a threat. Unless you continued to show aggression towards me, then I would be legally able to continue punching. If you were to then escalate the violence to a point I feared for my life ie; grabbed a weapon- then I could shoot you.

This is probably why we see so many statements from the defense about Trayvon preventing Zimmerman from breathing. If Trayvon did prevent Zimmerman from breathing, this would constitute a fear for his life and possibly justify the shooting.

I also suspect that this is why we see the prosecution playing those tapes over and over again where you hear a yelling for help. Doing this serves two purposes.... If you believe it was Trayvon yelling for help, then Zimmerman is not defending himself. If you believe it is Zimmerman yelling for help, then he can breathe cause you have to be able to get air in order to yell. If he can breath, then that calls into question if Zimmerman actually feared for his life. I wouldn't be shocked to see this point being made by the time closing statements roll around.

Now that you've said all that...i'm thinking like this: MAYBE, Trayvon clocked Zimmerman. Zimmerman defended himself by hitting Trayvon back, knocking him to the ground. They wrestled, in the grass. Zimmerman hopped on top of him and when Trayvon was screaming for help, Zimmerman shot him. Then, rolled him over? That would make alot more sense than Zimmerman's version.

reply to post by FlyersFan


You are right when you say he has to believe his life to be in danger... however there has to be a basis for that belief. If his fear for his life is not reasonable, he can not claim self defense.

Example- we get into a fight, you pick up a card board box and I shoot you cause I believe my life to be in danger because you picked up a weapon.

However, that weapon is just a card board box, my belief is not reasonable. I can not use deadly force and be justified.

Originally posted by MrWendal
Wow, this medical examiner's testimony is tough for Zimmerman.

She just said that his head injuries do not appear to have been caused by repeated blows to concrete and more than likely were caused by a single blow causing both cuts. She described that injury as "insignificant".

This is a huge blow to a self defense claim. Again- if there is no threat to his life, using deadly force is not self defense.

I've been saying ALL ALONG, his head injuries WERE NOT CAUSED by his head being "SLAMMED" into the concrete. The "self defense" argument is WEAK!!!