Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by mideast

 

Did you consider the possibility that some of us are trying to learn about this religion?

And the best way to do it is to ask questions about it?

No , honestly.

But remember that asking question is different than bringing inaccurate , manipulated documents which shows that Islam is irrational.

And internet is full of website which contain information about Islam by mentioning the sources and the witnesses.

+ I try to remember what you said , thanks.

edit on 7-6-2013 by mideast because: (no reason given)

Well honestly... I have no issues with any man or religion...

but if a book presents a threat to my safety or others I want to know why....

I admit I know nothing about Islam... or its holy books... but the stuff In that video doesn't shine a good light on the religion, and this is the second video I've seen in the past week that doesn't give Islam a good rep.

From what I've seen recently... this Sharia law is scary stuff...

And peace by means of war is not peace...

so as I've said previously... I have questions...

I might even have to make a thread to deal with my questions... I don't want to derail or take over wildtimes' thread

reply to post by Kgnow


Do you like to get to the truth ?

Or

You like to find something which confirms your idea ?

You will find the truth by proving yourself you are worthy of.

But if you want to play enemy , there are many ways in many religions that can help anybody be enemy of the religion.

And the fact that there are war on religion , that can be most likely for average person to get stuck into one of these fights.

I believe that god doesn't hide the truth , but it is me and my past that is hiding it from myself.

If you believe that , you may get the truth .

peace.

reply to post by logical7

you want muslims to be a unified body and yet you are persistent to find out the "sect" of the ones who don't want to be divided and want to be just "MUSLIM"??

YES! Was just pondering this question while enjoying the sunshine and a beer -

YES.
Because Islam is NOT unified, not by a LONG shot -
there are warring factions. there are sufis. there are "real" Muslims. And they're all scattered around.
You following? I hope so.

Now: if I need to anticipate being invaded by Muslims, I want to know ahead of time what questions to ask so that I can pick and choose the people I trust, or agree with in ideology. I want to know WHERE each of them come from, and which "sect" they claim.

I've learned enough on it to know that there are very violent and warring-factions, and they all dress the same.

So - when you all come over to conquer America, I would like to be able to say, "You're a sufi? From [some peaceful place]? Okay, cool, yes, I'll talk to you some more."

Are we just supposed to bite our lips and when approached, throw our hands in the air and whine: "I'll do whatever! Just tell me what to do!"
and then tremble in fear for our lives?
Would that work for ya?

Or, (just a suggestion) could we at LEAST have the information about WHICH Muslims of WHICH sect, and FROM WHERE are are "real" Muslims.

You want us to just tell our customs agents, law enforcement officers, civilians, and neighbors: "Just ask them ' Okay, but....are you a real Muslim?" *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* *with suspicious code-word-checking face*

And all they have to do is say the secret word, and they're IN!!! Hooaaahhh!!!

Or, say, someone we know is nervous with a new coworker or neighbor, just tell them.... "It's cool....just ask them if they're a "REAL" Muslim." ???? Is that the plan? You and babloyi have disclosed your locations. Sk0rp has not - babs says she's "just a muslim", and so do you. She told me she attends to no "sect" - and I believe her. You also will not tell me a 'sect', so I believe you, too, that you want to be "real Muslims" and recognized for compassion and peace.

That's FABULOUS! I'm very happy with that.
I don't mean to offend when I ask those questions. Think of it as 'screening' if you want to.

Maybe you "Real Muslims" could start a new, united sect - and a new dress code (uniform), so we can recognize you?

Would that be too much to ask? To be able to tell you apart????

I'm NOT trying to be rude - I'm trying, honestly, to give suggestions that will help all innocent parties deal with this upcoming mess!!!!!!!

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

What about the hate, oppression and murder of Muslims by non-Muslims?
Oh wait, I forgot...their lives are meaningless to you. I guess that makes it impossible to say that that the haters and oppressors and murderers of Muslims follow a way of life that has "peace, love, freedom and liberty".

You are lying about me and making personal assumptions and accusations when you do not know me. Any person that spreads suffering, tyranny, or oppression is wrong. Any religion, any culture, any nationality is wrong if they cause suffering.

I believe in the unity and unconditional brotherhood of all of mankind, regardless of the superficialities of race, nationality, religion, or ideology.

I honestly cried when I witnessed the destruction of Lebanon in 2006. My heart breaks every time I see the suffering of the Palestinians. My soul hurts every time I see human suffering in any part of the world. I see fellow humans, not their religion.

Please stop with the presumptuous attempts at personal attacks. Please stick to the discussion!

Please quote the exact verses in the Koran that called for the rape of slaves. I am not interested in debating peoples personal opinions.

"Who abstain from sex, except with their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess, for then they are not blameworthy" [Qur'an 23:5-6]

"And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." [Qur'an 4:24]

"Your women are a field for you (to cultivate) so go to your field as ye will." [Qur'an 2:223]

Can you please find me ONE Islamic source that teaches that Islam started peaceful and grew murderous and totalitarian. I am not interested in debating peoples personal opinions.

Jihad was not lawful until after Muhammad left Mecca. Fact.

Challenge to you: Show me where taking up arms under jihad was ordered prior to the hijra of leaving Mecca.

Examples? Care to cite the exact verses?
Allah is the God of the Bible as well. Like it or not... God can change His mind.

To quote all of the abrogations would be tiresome, there are too many! Many Meccan revelations were abrogated by Medinian verses. You know abrogation is wide-spread, don't act like I have to prove it to you. You're just beating around the bush to avoid facts that you already know to be true.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" [Qur'an 2:106]

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." [Qur'an16:101]

reply to post by wildtimes

I've asked YOU to do that countless times. You keep SAYING it, but you don't show us any EVIDENCE of it, except telling us to "read the Qu'ran". I don't read arabic, and the Qu'ran itself was only mouth-to-mouth oral tradition for a LONG TIME - you show me how the current "versions" have been translated correctly - show me where the hadiths are wrong. YOU SHOW ME!! The Burden of Proof is on you. I've presented my case, and you have consistently blown me off.

how about more Karen Armstrong videos on Muhammad pbuh and Islam? Or her books? Are they acceptable proofs for you?

When they "stop sucking up" the
conflict will intensify more? Yes, I bet it
would.
Yes, the sunni/shia mess is 1,000
years old. You are 28 years old. Yet
you tell me it's a religion of peace. YES, the region is UNSTABLE - so, how
is it that if people stop "sucking up to
USA" it will THEN become unstable?

my age being not near 1000yrs has nothing to do with my understanding of Islam.

Why do you think USA is giving funding to egypt, protection to Saudi royals and other UAE Countries? And what will happen if dictatorial regimes fall and egypt refuses to co operate with USA?

USA's major concern in ME is safety of israel. Your country cares more about an apartheid state than the best of its own people, your country is in control of zionists jews and christians and i know you speak against it and i appreciate that.
Its a complicated equation Wildtimes and i can only see as much as my little 28yrs old brain can help me.
Some muslims not acting according to the teachings of Islam is just one factor in that equation. I want it to be corrected but if it does get corrected, that does not end the conflict it actually intensifies it, a united Islamic body is a danger to israel and it will make US intervene more to control and subdue anti israel countries.
It will bleed USA to an economic collapse. Honestly i feel bad for the people of USA but sadly only a handful see whats coming at them and its not a Muslim army screaming "ALLAH hu AKBAR" as the OP video want you to believe.

If you are suggesting that I 'go along'
with Islam - and doing that will end
the conflicts among the Muslim sects -
then I don't know what to tell you.
That is just insanely ridiculous.

i am not suggesting anythings like that. Sects in islam will stay, they are a product of ego and free will. Muslims who truly consider Allah Supreme and above their differences would co exist peacefully or the best get united as a single Islamic body.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Kgnow

 

... people, like me, who have left Islam and openly spread awareness to its darkness?

I am someone who was once anti-Muslim... And here I am defending Islam

You just repeated twice that you "are not interested in defending people's personal opinions," however, you just rebutted me with YOUR opinion!

In case you did not see, this is NOT opinion, this is the word of Allah and Muhammad:

"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter." [Qur'an 5:33]

`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. [Tafsir ibn Kathir]

Waging war against Allah and His prophet means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings. [Pooya/Ali Commentary]

 

"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims." [Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17]

"Whoever changed his (Islamic) religion, then kill him" [Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57]

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

you want muslims to be a unified body and yet you are persistent to find out the "sect" of the ones who don't want to be divided and want to be just "MUSLIM"??

YES! Was just pondering this question while enjoying the sunshine and a beer -

YES.
Because Islam is NOT unified, not by a LONG shot -
there are warring factions. there are sufis. there are "real" Muslims. And they're all scattered around.
You following? I hope so.

Now: if I need to anticipate being invaded by Muslims, I want to know ahead of time what questions to ask so that I can pick and choose the people I trust, or agree with in ideology. I want to know WHERE each of them come from, and which "sect" they claim.

I've learned enough on it to know that there are very violent and warring-factions, and they all dress the same.

So - when you all come over to conquer America, I would like to be able to say, "You're a sufi? From [some peaceful place]? Okay, cool, yes, I'll talk to you some more."

Are we just supposed to bite our lips and when approached, throw our hands in the air and whine: "I'll do whatever! Just tell me what to do!"
and then tremble in fear for our lives?
Would that work for ya?

Or, (just a suggestion) could we at LEAST have the information about WHICH Muslims of WHICH sect, and FROM WHERE are are "real" Muslims.

You want us to just tell our customs agents, law enforcement officers, civilians, and neighbors: "Just ask them ' Okay, but....are you a real Muslim?" *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* *with suspicious code-word-checking face*

And all they have to do is say the secret word, and they're IN!!! Hooaaahhh!!!

Or, say, someone we know is nervous with a new coworker or neighbor, just tell them.... "It's cool....just ask them if they're a "REAL" Muslim." ???? Is that the plan? You and babloyi have disclosed your locations. Sk0rp has not - babs says she's "just a muslim", and so do you. She told me she attends to no "sect" - and I believe her. You also will not tell me a 'sect', so I believe you, too, that you want to be "real Muslims" and recognized for compassion and peace.

That's FABULOUS! I'm very happy with that.
I don't mean to offend when I ask those questions. Think of it as 'screening' if you want to.

Maybe you "Real Muslims" could start a new, united sect - and a new dress code (uniform), so we can recognize you?

Would that be too much to ask? To be able to tell you apart????

I'm NOT trying to be rude - I'm trying, honestly, to give suggestions that will help all innocent parties deal with this upcoming mess!!!!!!!

edit on 7-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

well relax, nobody is going to conquer USA.

About the sects,
prophet Muhammad pbuh said

My ummah will be divided into
seventy three sects. All of them will be
in the Fire except one? [Saheeh
Muslim, no.976]

Qur'an tells Muslims to not get divided but not all will listen.
Surprisingly Qur'an also paints a picture of Jugdgement Day as points this,

“And the Messenger has said: ‘O my
Lord, indeed my people took this
Qur’an as [a thing]
abandoned.’” (Qur’an, 25:30)

reply to post by mideast

Do you like to get to the truth ?

If you are calling me a liar and alleging that I am wrong, then re-read my replies in this thread and tell me where and how I have said anything other than truth while referring to Allah, Qur'an, Muhammad, and Hadith.

I declare myself no one's enemy. I see Muslims and non-Muslims as my fellow humans, my fellow family. I only spread awareness to the truth about Islam that I have learned first-hand from sheikhs and muftis when I used to be a Muslim.

Prove my points wrong if you can. Stop the deflections and avoidance of the discussion.

One more quick post - have NOT read any replies or posts since my last.

I want to clarify my point:

WE IN THE WEST feel comfortable talking to one another about religion. "Are you a Christian?" "Yes." "Yeah? Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Anglican, Episcopalian, JW, [or whatever 'sect']."

Person responds: "Presbyterian. You?"
"Catholic."

Then both are like, "oh, okay, then! Nice to meet you! See ya round!!"

Then you might meet someone who answers "I'm a card-carrying member of Westboro Baptist Church." And they're both like: "Erm. Oh." and they walk away - KNOWING they won't get along.

Or then we have the extreme Protestants claiming the ridiculous: "CATHOLICS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS!" Which is a BUNCH OF HORSE DUNG.

So........we on these boards are trying to figure out how to handle the INEVITABLE "integration" that we will soon have to face. GIVE US SOME TOOLS, please! Not just a "handbook" that's 1400 years old!

Lots of people want to say: "Well, I'm not any sect, I'm just a "real" Christian"
and often (but not exclusively) in my experience, THEY are the ones promoting war, trying to take over the country with their DOMINIONIST mentality and talk about demons and 'cleansing'. Talking about needing a war in Israel to 'bring on the Judgment Day!!!' YAY! Now we all get to go to heaven!!!!."

THAT SCARES ME, logical. And too many people seem to be pushing for that to happen.

Some of us (Westerners) don't want that, and we are fighting it!.

And some Westerners DO want that - and want to find reasons to blow $h!t up all over the world!!!

IT's STUPID!!
So, those of us who want to build a bridge would feel very reassured if we had a teeny weeny bit more info about what questions to ask - we do that amongst one another, too -

the broad-brushed terms "Jew, Christian, Muslim" NO LONGER WORK. We can't figure each other out, or find common ground on just those wide nets. It doesn't work.

WE MUST get more specific.

And just as some 'Real Christians' deny 'religion' and don't claim any 'sect' - so do the 'Real Muslims' deny any sect or 'persuasion.' Since the 'Mega-Church' self-proclaimed "real" Christians are proving to be dangerous -
I want to know who the self-proclaimed "real" Muslims are - or I have to suspect they are dangerous.

Originally posted by Kgnow
reply to post by logical7

 

You do not know me. Perhaps you should ask how and why I have drawn my conclusions of Islam instead of assuming that I am unlearned about Islam, or assuming I am ignorant about Islam, or assuming that I am taking a Judeo-Christian or Western view of Islam, or assuming that I am taking a biased view of Islam, or even your falsely perceived superiority of yourself above me in regards to Islam where I need your answers to my questions about Islam.

In mature, professional, and civilized discussion we discuss the facts on the table; not the character of the individual.

Although it has absolutely NO bearing upon mature discussion, I've read ajiza (30 sections: 1 section a day for 30 days) of Qur'an to complete it's reading in 30 days, month upon month, year upon year. I have lead the salah (prayer) in many different ummahs (Islamic communities). I have memorized vast portions of Qur'an, studying classical and modern arabic along with tajweed (pronunciation) and qira'at (school of recitation) striving to become a hafiz (one who completely memorized the Qur'an according to academic standards). I studied directly under sheikhs and muftis, not from the Internet or biased blogs.

Get the picture? I am an ex-Muslim. But this has absolutely no bearing on the topic if we stick to the facts and the points of discussion.

Assalaamu alaikum rah'matullahi wa'barakatu

walekumasslam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.

well Walid Shoebat in the OP was a muslim, knows arabic and a lot of verses from Qur'an. Doesn't prevent him from turning out to be a fraud.

But as you says thats beyond the topic so lets concentrate.

These edicts abrogate (replace/nullify)
the outdated "no compulsion in
religion" ayat (verse). Let us discuss.

the killing of apostates apply when someone enters islam in the morning and left in the evening like some jews did in medina to mislead and misuse their respectable position among uneducated muslims, the law to kill an apostate was to prevent such type of mischief.

Here is the full hadith

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57: Narrated 'Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were
brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The
news of this event, reached Ibn
'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his
place, I would not have burnt them, as
Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's
punishment (fire).' I would have killed
them according to the statement of
Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his
Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

and here is the link explaining it
www.call-to-monotheism.com/why_did_ali_burn_some_apostates___by_understanding_islam

In my opinion, the second and the
third versions of the incident are quite
considerable. It seems that: 1. After it had become evident that the house was secretly being used for
idolatry, `Ali (ra) ordered that it be
burnt down. However, due to a
mistake on the part of one or more of
the narrators, the incident has been
reported in a way that it gives the impression that the house was burnt
down with its inhabitants. Whereas, it
may not have been so; or 2. People were killed for their apostasy and later on their corpses were burnt
to ashes. This is clearly implied in the
third stated version of the incident. Nevertheless, if someone is not willing
to accept any of the above
explanations and is persistent that `Ali
(ra) actually burnt these criminals to
death, even then the most that can be
said is that `Ali's decision of burning the criminals to death was not correct,
in view of the directive of the Prophet
(pbuh) to the contrary. This,
obviously, would amount to a criticism
on `Ali's decision - not a criticism on
Islam. After all, `Ali (ra) was but a human
being, he may have erred in his
decision.

reply to post by wildtimes


Forgive me for being Capt. Obvious, but many of the ones you describe adhere to the kinds of things that are written in the Book of Revelation.

Even though it quite clearly says that the hour is unknown and will come like a thief in the night, there persists the idea that by forcing the prophecies contained within to occur in whatever way they wish to interpret them, then by default they would have been fulfilled.

Yet another misapplication of the text to further one's own agenda.

reply to post by logical7


"how are you helping exactly?"

I'm just contributing my view points on the subject matter, don't know if that's helping, certainly not hindering in anyway.

"By asking muslims on ATS to answer a propaganda video filled with islamophobia?"

How is the Stacey Dooley video propaganda or islamophobia? Surely you don't claim the people in the video are not Muslims?

What about the British police burn in hell, UK burn in hell chanting in the background. Is this somehow acceptable behaviour?

Stacey Dooley's done charity work all over the world, in Africa, Asia and who knows where else, are you claiming she is somehow an Islamophobe or would be involved in the creation of anti Islamic propaganda? What about the people in said video telling her to put some clothes on, who is she trying to seduce comments, is this acceptable? And the pointing in a Woman's face like that amounts to assault, just ask the Police!

"Do you really want insights that will change you opinions and world view or just want confirmations for already made up views because i do see you agreeing with posters that have a typical western view of things. Thats not learning thats just seeking confirmation."

I am always happy to learn, I cant help but have a western view since i am indeed for a western country.

I live next to rather a lot of predominantly Muslim people, mostly political refugees that are very aggressive towards the local population other Muslims included. I went to School with both Muslim and Indian friends in the 1980s/1990s nobody was screaming jihad and cutting soldiers heads off back then. I don't see how anyone can deny the fact that religious Muslim extremist has become rather a more prevalent issue over the last decade or so here in the U.K.

"In you frustation you have shown that you really don't care if muslims live or die."

I care whither everyone lives or dies i just don't want my country destroyed by people screaming anti western propaganda while happily taking the handouts form our welfare programs.

"Why should any muslim be answerable to you here on ATS or anywhere?"

Where have a stated that Muslims are answerable to me? LoL I thought you all answered to Allah, im Andy, I suppose there is a vague similarity. LoL

"I actually don't like you coming in a self superior way demanding answers, nobody here is obliged to answer just because you show shock and concern about whats happening "THERE"!! and very honestly, you or me are helping none except understanding things a bit better."

Im really not here to cater to you likes or dislikes my friend. Just because I don't agree with you ideologies and regard Sharia law as fundamentally wrong im coming of as self superior? Well if the cap fits I suppose. I'm quite happy to understand things a bit better. I still think you will have rather a hard time convincing me there is no problem with Muslim extremism in my country.

"I just expect that you show empathy for the people rather than paint them as savages, most have been pulled into a war that they don't want."

I am in no way suggesting the all Muslims are savages. The western world learned a hell of a lot about astronomy, physics, chemistry, and mathematics from the Muslim nations after the dark ages. I think they may even have invented the concept of Zero. That's up there with the wheel!

I am suggesting the Sharia law system is savage and totally misogynistic.

"In Syria Women in burkhas and a gun, patrol the streets to defend their neighbourhoods as their husbands are fighting a war."

In Glasgow women don't need burkas they can wear whatever they choose. Guns are also not an option as they are illegal and carry a 5-7 year jail sentence if found to be carrying one.

I feel bad about Syria dude, I know my government is up to its neck in it regarding Syria. I wish I could wave a magic wand and fix the situation but I cant. Do you think its true Sarin gas has been used?

Originally posted by andy06shake
reply to post by Malynn

 

So what are you suggesting that the people of the nations of the West should be held accountable for the warmongering that our political leaders have perpetrated in the middle east and the rest of the planet?

Yes, abso-freaking-lutely. The people who live in these supposedly "Free and Democratic Societies" including myself, do nothing while the governments of our great societies rape, pillage, and murder in the middle east. These atrocities are talked about like they're bad weather. "Oh, just another drone strike in Pakistan that killed all kinds of innocent civilians. Whoops. Our bad." And then people have the audacity to get indignant and righteous when the people of the middle east lose it and fight back?

I can guarantee you that if Americans were living in fear of sudden death from the sky by a technologically advanced country on the other side of the planet you'd see some extremism cropping up around here as well.

We as a western society can either nut up and remove the psychos treating Africa and the Middle East like some kind of resource farm for white people, or we can start getting used to some retaliation. It's our choice really.

Originally posted by andy06shake
reply to post by logical7

 

"how are you helping exactly?"

I'm just contributing my view points on the subject matter, don't know if that's helping, certainly not hindering in anyway.

"By asking muslims on ATS to answer a propaganda video filled with islamophobia?"

How is the Stacey Dooley video propaganda or islamophobia? Surely you don't claim the people in the video are not Muslims?

What about the British police burn in hell, UK burn in hell chanting in the background. Is this somehow acceptable behaviour?

Stacey Dooley's done charity work all over the world, in Africa, Asia and who knows where else, are you claiming she is somehow an Islamophobe or would be involved in the creation of anti Islamic propaganda? What about the people in said video telling her to put some clothes on, who is she trying to seduce comments, is this acceptable? And the pointing in a Woman's face like that amounts to assault, just ask the Police!

"Do you really want insights that will change you opinions and world view or just want confirmations for already made up views because i do see you agreeing with posters that have a typical western view of things. Thats not learning thats just seeking confirmation."

I am always happy to learn, I cant help but have a western view since i am indeed for a western country.

I live next to rather a lot of predominantly Muslim people, mostly political refugees that are very aggressive towards the local population other Muslims included. I went to School with both Muslim and Indian friends in the 1980s/1990s nobody was screaming jihad and cutting soldiers heads off back then. I don't see how anyone can deny the fact that religious Muslim extremist has become rather a more prevalent issue over the last decade or so here in the U.K.

"In you frustation you have shown that you really don't care if muslims live or die."

I care whither everyone lives or dies i just don't want my country destroyed by people screaming anti western propaganda while happily taking the handouts form our welfare programs.

"Why should any muslim be answerable to you here on ATS or anywhere?"

Where have a stated that Muslims are answerable to me? LoL I thought you all answered to Allah, im Andy, I suppose there is a vague similarity. LoL

"I actually don't like you coming in a self superior way demanding answers, nobody here is obliged to answer just because you show shock and concern about whats happening "THERE"!! and very honestly, you or me are helping none except understanding things a bit better."

Im really not here to cater to you likes or dislikes my friend. Just because I don't agree with you ideologies and regard Sharia law as fundamentally wrong im coming of as self superior? Well if the cap fits I suppose. I'm quite happy to understand things a bit better. I still think you will have rather a hard time convincing me there is no problem with Muslim extremism in my country.

"I just expect that you show empathy for the people rather than paint them as savages, most have been pulled into a war that they don't want."

I am in no way suggesting the all Muslims are savages. The western world learned a hell of a lot about astronomy, physics, chemistry, and mathematics from the Muslim nations after the dark ages. I am suggesting the Sharia law system is savage and totally misogynistic.

"In Syria Women in burkhas and a gun, patrol the streets to defend their neighbourhoods as their husbands are fighting a war."

In Glasgow women don't need burkas they can wear whatever they choose. Guns are also not an option as they are illegal and carry a 5-7 year jail sentence if found to be carrying one.

I feel bad about Syria dude, I know my government is up to its neck in it regarding Syria. I wish I could wave a magic wand and fix the situation but I cant. Do you think its true Sarin gas has been used?

edit on 7-6-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

why are you answering questions that are obviously not for you. We havent talked much yet and i don't know about Sarin but it seems like a perfect excuse to intervene militarily!

reply to post by Malynn


Wrong dude sorry!

reply to post by logical7


Sorry mate, hade a few wee whiskeys and am also appreciating the greenery so to speak.

Somehow read, reply to andy06shake(Coz its in bold) and thought you were directing your questions towards me. Don't ask! I'm just a tad discombobulated.

My bad LoL LoL LoL

reply to post by Malynn


very honestly your posts shocked me but i am happy to see that at least some understand the situation in ME and really think using the golden rule and not a double standard yardstick where just saying i dont agree with my government is enough to disassociate with the bloodshed and then turn around and demand answers to what muslims are doing to prevent killings in ME! Well muslims are fighting for themselves and their families with their lives!!

Originally posted by andy06shake
reply to post by logical7

 

Sorry mate, hade a few wee whiskeys and am also appreciating the greenery so to speak.

Somehow read, reply to andy06shake(Coz its in bold) and thought you were directing your questions towards me. Don't ask! I'm just a tad discombobulated.

My bad LoL LoL LoL

edit on 7-6-2013 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)

thats perfectly understandable, no problem mate.

reply to post by wildtimes


Dismiss you without knowing you? I too have read every post in this thread, and everytime a...what did you call them? Here let me quote you:

I hope to hear especially from Muslim apologists and sympathizers with your responses and reactions to the film.

..responds to the thread with logic and reasoning you reply that they need to basically put up or shutup with a documentary refuting your propaganda. You know what I hear when I hear the phrase Muslim Apologists and Sympathizers? I hear "ni**er lover" And my response would be yes, yes I am. I love and have white friends, black friends, christian friends, jewish friends, and muslim friends. The difference between all three goat-herder religions is the same as the difference between coke and pepsi. They all have red-blood, love their families and children, and want to live good lives. All three goat-herder religions have their extremists and crazy people. This does not represent their societies as a whole. And if we're going to start lumping all Muslims into the same category as violent jerks we're gonna need to start lumping all Americans and westernerns into the "homicial, thieving, oppressive, imperialist" category.

reply to post by logical7

the killing of apostates apply when someone enters islam in the morning and left in the evening like some jews did in medina to mislead and misuse their respectable position among uneducated muslims, the law to kill an apostate was to prevent such type of mischief.

This is not true.

In Islam, to understand the Qur'an according to academic standards, one must study the concept of 'Tafsir', which literally means "interpretation".

"Asbaab'ul nuzul" is a concept of Tafsir which specifically deals with the circumstances and environment in which each specific verse and chapter of the Qur'an was revealed.

"Ilmul hadith" is a concept of Tafsir which coorelates specific Hadith (sayings and actions of Muhammad) as related to specific Qur'an verses.

"Ilmul nashk" is a concept of Tafsir which determines which verses of the Qur'an abrogate or supersede earlier verses.



Here is a verse of Qur'an dealing with murdering those who leave Islam, with 2 different Tafsir commentaries by acknowledge scholar Ismail ibn Kathir, and the Pooya Ali Commentary:

"The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter." [Qur'an 5:33]

`Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil. [Tafsir ibn Kathir]

"Waging war against Allah and His prophet" means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings. [Pooya/Ali Commentary]



Clearly, the academic scholars of Islam, according to Tafsir, have illustrated that murdering those who leave Islam is a more recent edict that abrogates/supersedes the verses of freedom of religion.