What Jerusalem?

reply to post by Deetermined

Don't dwell on why it's wrong. Dwell on what Jesus says he's going to do to straighten it out. Remember, God chose them to make an example out of them and that includes wrongdoings and punishment.

Do you really not see how perverse that is?

There is nothing inevitable about what has not yet happened. The sense of "oh well, it's written, I'll just stand and watch" is immoral, and reflects a very very low attitude about God and humanity.

reply to post by pthena


interesting question.

Ez 21 is a most interesting chapter
it talks about 'the end times ' = now
and about ' that slab of land ' [ now named the secular country of israel ]

and how ' ammon is the awful prince of that slab of land '
and ' jerusalem its [ ammons ] fortress ' .

now
ammon = amun = 'the hidden one ', the egyptian head deity ,
seeing over the former ammonites [ now syria ]

but
ammon/amun is the guardian of the West, that is " imprisoning the West ",
by means of his [ sic! ] katholic church since 300 ad

if you care to know,
whý the president of that little country and the vatican are so close,
its because of this.

meaning
after 70 ad, it was ' ammon ' who had the rule about this , now, totally Wordly city -
[ since God 'departed from the temple ' as ezekiel says - that is, He wont return to this earthly jerusalem but only when the New one came down ]

so at least since 70 ad,
it was amun who rebuilt the city
and expanded it massively since ' 48.

But this present city [ nor the country ! ] has *nothing* to do with Him, whatsoever.

reply to post by pthena


What's perverse about it? That fact that God already knew/knows the choices that people were/are going to make ahead of time is perverse? The moral of the story is, until we realize that we need God/Jesus to lead us, we're going to keep making mistakes for which we will be punished. Like it or leave it.

reply to post by Lone12

But this present city [ nor the country ! ] has *nothing* to do with Him, whatsoever.

Ezekiel 21: 25 You, deadly wounded wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day has come, in the time of the iniquity of the end, 26 thus says the Lord Yahweh: Remove the turban, and take off the crown; this shall be no more the same; exalt that which is low, and abase that which is high. 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn it: this also shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

The NIV has "ruin, ruin, ruin" instead of "overturn, overturn, overturn" I think I like the ruin better than overturn.

This does bring into question how Christians view Post-exile writings. Ezekiel is supposed to be a split just before the final fall of Jerusalem, and then for a while later.

The question then is: If the god intended Jerusalem to remain a ruin and the throne vacant until rightful ruler, then why do Christians think that the return under Messiah Cyrus was a good thing rather than a violation of the god's will? What are Christians to think about post-exile prophets who "jump the gun" so to speak? In Zechariah there is a shifty little scene with turban and crown (false Messiah?)

reply to post by Deetermined

until we realize that we need God/Jesus to lead us

If you choose man's interpretation of words written by men as if it were God and Jesus then you most likely will be no more correct about real God/Jesus than the scribes and Pharisees.

God was, before ever a single word was written.

Jesus said the scriptures testified of him, he who was before Abraham.

There is God who exists before all. And there is a god who is a character in a story.
If you allow it, the character can testify of God,
if you mistake the character for God,
then you are possessed by the character, who is not God, but only a character.

reply to post by pthena

Jesus said the scriptures testified of him, he who was before Abraham.

You are correct. That's why Jesus kept telling the Israelites over and over again to READ THE SCRIPTURES.

Exodus 6:2-3 (God to Moses)

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.

Deuteronomy 6:3-4 (Moses to the people)

3 Hear therefore, O Israel, and observe to do it; that it may be well with thee, and that ye may increase mightily, as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee, in the land that floweth with milk and honey.

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:28-29 (Jesus to the people)

28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

Isaiah 44:6 (God)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 1:7-8 (Jesus)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty .


Revelation 22:12-13 (Jesus)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Zechariah 14:9

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

reply to post by Deetermined


If the Lord God is only one, then why did he imply that he was more than one?

Genesis 3
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I guess the "us" are those other gods that Yahweh was so jealous of? He seems to be putting those "others" on the same level as him in this verse.

Yahweh is a funny god, and definitely not the same as Jesus. If he is, he has multiple personality disorder.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


There is only one God . Gog the Father , the Son of God or Lord who came down to earth as Jesus and the Holy Spirit . That is the Trinity , the we . God the Father and the Son of God and Holy Spirit are ONE in spirit . They are together in purpose .
And God said let us create man in our own image. Thus no missing link to the rest of creation that may have shared some likeness to an accelerated evolution during the two separate creations , one from the sea and the other from the earth .
If you really want to see the omnipotence of God reference Isaiah chapter 45 verse 7 .

reply to post by Deetermined

Yes! You're getting it!

Yahweh is a character in the story.
That's why in the story people could see and hear him.

"Hear oh Israel" does not mean "Hear all people"
"Yahweh your god" is "one Yahweh" does not mean "one and only God of the universe"

Isaiah 44 is part of the post-exile writings that this thread was written to bring into question.
The prophets and poets had to invent monotheism so as to explain how their god was greater than Marduk.
They did it by pretending that there was no Marduk or any other gods.

This is when monotheism was invented.

Some of the scenes in Revelation (12?) are stolen from Marduk. jmdewey has a book about it. As for me, I just don't read Revelation because I don't need Marduk for a god.

Ruin, Ruin, Ruin and the Three Temples

Ezekiel 21:27
English Standard Version (©2001)
A ruin, ruin, ruin I will make it. This also shall not be, until he comes, the one to whom judgment belongs, and I will give it to him.

Is this where the magic number of temples that must be destroyed before the rightful ruler comes from?

If so, then we need no more temples to be destroyed. 1, 2, 3, all done as of 70AD

reply to post by pthena


Unfortunately, you still don't get it. You must have overlooked this verse...

Isaiah 44:6 (God/Jesus)

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, AND HIS redeemer the LORD OF HOSTS; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Dude, Lord of Hosts is Jesus! Jesus was already with them back during the times of the Old Testament and they didn't realize it!! Yahweh is Jesus, and most of the Jews didn't recognize him when he came to earth as Jesus.

Why do you think Jesus said this to Phillip?

John 14:6-11

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

What do you think these verses in John 1 mean?

John 1:10-11

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Jesus was the Creator (God), Yahweh. He made the world. He came unto his own people (the Israelites) and they didn't recognize him. They didn't recognize him because they had fallen away from Yahweh due to their sinfulness.

Don't forget, Jesus was born into the house of David. These were his people no matter how much you want to separate Israel from the rest of the world.

reply to post by Deetermined

NET Bible (©2006)
This is what the LORD, Israel's king, says, their(Israel's) protector, the LORD who commands armies: "I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me.

It isn't 2 or 3 characters in that verse, it's one character.

Dude, Lord of Hosts is Jesus! Jesus was already with them back during the times of the Old Testament and they didn't realize it!! Yahweh is Jesus, and most of the Jews didn't recognize him when he came to earth as Jesus.

Why do you think Jesus said this to Phillip?

John 14:6-11

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

If you say that Jesus is Yahweh, then you either make the Isaiah 44 a lie, or Jesus a lie.
The Isaiah 44 Yahweh character does not have a Father, if he did, then wouldn't he be greater than the "one and only"?

Jesus was born into the house of David.

Who is David? I'm sure you know the verse where Jesus asked who's son the Messiah was.

In any event, The son of God does not need any particular human descent. David is irrelevant.

These were his people no matter how much you want to separate Israel from the rest of the world

Separate? On the contrary! I invite them to give up on exclusiveness and join humanity, many have done so.

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Deetermined

NET Bible (©2006)
This is what the LORD, Israel's king, says, their(Israel's) protector, the LORD who commands armies: "I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me.

We could play this game all day long...

American Standard Version
Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

Maybe it would help to read the previous verse to put in context...

Isaiah 44:5-6

5 One shall say, I am the Lord's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the Lord, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

God had many names in the Old Testament. Some which are repeated and given to Jesus.

"The Many Names of God"

www.agapebiblestudy.com...

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

reply to post by pthena


Maybe posting this again will help you to understand what I'm saying.

1 John 5:6-7

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Father = God
Word = Jesus
Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit

There's a reason that Jesus told his disciples to baptize the people and the nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. THESE THREE ARE ONE. Just like it says in verse 7 above.

However, that does not mean that it excludes Yahweh, Jehovah, and all of the other names that have been listed in the Old Testament. These names/titles still represent the Father.

reply to post by Deetermined


What game? You have all the necessary verses there. Whether you call yourself Yahweh's, or Jacob's or [first name] Israel. There is only one Yahweh. Not 2, not 3.

But I'm not Yahweh's, or Jacob's or [pthena] Israel. I am a heathen Gentile who has a Father Heaven.

reply to post by pthena

But I'm not Yahweh's, or Jacob's or [pthena] Israel. I am a heathen Gentile who has a Father Heaven.

That's fine. I'm only trying to point out how Jesus is related to God in the Old Testament. The one I thought you were trying to dismiss as an impostor.

reply to post by Deetermined

Aren't all those verses disputed as verses inserted by Trinitarians, including the baptism verses?

reply to post by pthena


If you want to try and dig out an original text in another language that states otherwise, feel free, but you'll be wasting your time.

reply to post by Deetermined

If you want to try and dig out an original text in another language that states otherwise, feel free,

Is there some particular reason that I should even care? The apparatus at the bottom of the page in my Bible says "Late Vulgate Mss"

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by Deetermined

If you want to try and dig out an original text in another language that states otherwise, feel free,

Is there some particular reason that I should even care? The apparatus at the bottom of the page in my Bible says "Late Vulgate Mss"

edit on 4-6-2013 by pthena because: (no reason given)

Pe#ta and Septuagint are light-years more true to form than the Vulgate. The Vulgate could be considered an authority of reference to corrupted scripture.

Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew are trustworthy. Latin Vulgate was commissioned by & through the Catholic Church.

God is no respecter of religion.


edit:

LOLOL.....ha ha haaa, I am totally laughing out loud right now. The ATS censor "bleeped" out the "nasty" part of a totally normal word. Good grief, last time I checked we were all adults. Thank you ATS for protecting everyone in this thread from the horror of my sneaky attempt of corruption.

The word is the Aramaic P- E- S- H- I -T- T -A

Now, everyone go wash their mouth out with soap and say ten hail Mary's.