Brahman, Maya, Truth and the illusion of Free will

reply to post by smithjustinb


I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

Do you see that you have said 'your' self? Who is trying to identify what?
The Self is the Self and the Self sees appearances (the dream).

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

If I was to tell you what I have discovered myself to be it would be nothing - I am nothing. I am nothing seeing something (the present image - which is also not a thing) - together it makes apparent existence. I am/this is..... nothing happening.
I am (this is) emptiness forming.
Non existence and appearing existence is all there will ever be - it is what this consists of. This will always be but this will always appear different.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

It would be difficult to separate the dream from the dreamer, to see the dream as something other than the dreamer. Does your character in the dream have a will that is separate from you? Can it create independently of your creation?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by smithjustinb
When the dreamer realizes it is not the dream, it can consciously create the dream. This is the epitome of the lucid dream. If you also do not say, "I am the dreamer", then how can you create? You cant have will without an identity.

So maybe it is that you do have an identity, but it is beyond the dream. So I am not the dream, I am the dreamer and the dream is just a creation of my mind. Therefore, nothing you see here you can call your self, but you know there is a you where everything you see here comes from.

Then, as the dreamer, subject to the illusions of the dream, it is your mission to bring true self awareness into the dream. Self awareness is the content of the quality of lucidity. I find that being self aware within a dream is even better than the ability to manifest your desire.

We know that the dream world we create is 100% convincing. And to realize the truth of the dream is to also realize you are both the illusion in it and the Creator of it. As far as we can tell, the only one who can wake up to the dream, is the dreamer (creator of the dream). Because in the dream world, the only thing that is real, is the one who (for the lack of a better word), created the dream. The dream itself is an illusion, including your character in it and everything else. So what to do?

The illusions in the dream seem to have will of their own, but it is all you. That any will they appear to have, is actually being done by You.

Your will, alone, is being carried out in the dream. And every character in it is, likewise, being moved around by that same force. In our dreams, getting the illusory self to consciously wake up, independent of the creator, is virtually impossible because the illusory self (the one you think you are and feel yourself to be) doesn't exist.

So we, being the creator of the entire dream, can trigger lucidity with no problem, but can the dreamt-self do it on its own? Can something, which is, itself, an illusion, do anything at all to make this happen?

Originally posted by arpgme

In your dreams you are eternal. You can't really die.

I have had quite a number of dreams where I have died, and the experience seemed very real. Of course, upon awakening I would realise that I am still alive.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

If I was to tell you what I have discovered myself to be it would be nothing - I am nothing. I am nothing seeing something (the present image - which is also not a thing) - together it makes apparent existence. I am/this is..... nothing happening.
I am (this is) emptiness forming.
Non existence and appearing existence is all there will ever be - it is what this consists of. This will always be but this will always appear different.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

Excellent post itsnowagain, may I take it further? Lets assume, you arranged to send yourself a messenger in the dream who would be there to remind you of the Truth.

Lets say he was extremely blunt in his message to you and it went something like this: (spoken in the dialogue of the time)

"I have been sent by God. and I'm here to tell you, that you are not real. Nothing is real and everything is the creator. You are asleep and everything you see, think and know is an illusion. In your totality, you are God, creator of everything that is, born as a child of yourself, in your image. Now wake up!"

If you sincerely believed those words to be true, would that be enough to trigger lucidity? Or would you cast it off as silly nonsense? Can any knowledge and accumulated experience gained in the dream, be sufficient to help you grasp the enormity of the Truth and deliver your illusory self out of it? What would it take?

Originally posted by smithjustinb

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I am is the one but it is not a person, not a who.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

So what would you identify your self as?

Thats a good question. let's tackle it in reverse. If you were to visit yourself in your dream, knowing the complete truth about the dream, who would you identify yourself as? How would you describe yourself?

reply to post by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Visitor2012
"I have been sent by God. and I'm here to tell you, that you are not real. Nothing is real and everything is the creator. You are asleep and everything you see, think and know is an illusion. In your totality, you are God, creator of everything that is, born as a child of yourself, in your image. Now wake up!"

Good questions, Visitor.

But, in this case, if such a messenger appeared, I would question his very message and intent. Because the acausal Unconditional Reality (God) does not create anything. Only conditional reality creates more conditions in an endless cause-and-effect patterning. However, all such conditions arise in the indivisible acausal Divine Reality as non-separate modifications of that Reality; but that indivisible (non-separate) Reality has no cause-and-effect relationship with any conditions.

Even my dreaming is just more patterns arising, not something I am creating. Do I create thoughts? No, they are patterns of the brain-mind complex, just like dreaming. There is no "you" creating anything - it only seems that way from the position (or point-of-view) of the body-mind (ego-I).

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

Originally posted by Visitor2012
"I have been sent by God. and I'm here to tell you, that you are not real. Nothing is real and everything is the creator. You are asleep and everything you see, think and know is an illusion. In your totality, you are God, creator of everything that is, born as a child of yourself, in your image. Now wake up!"

Good questions, Visitor.

But, in this case, if such a messenger appeared, I would question his very message and intent. Because the acausal Unconditional Reality (God) does not create anything. Only conditional reality creates more conditions in an endless cause-and-effect patterning. However, all such conditions arise in the indivisible acausal Divine Reality as non-separate modifications of that Reality; but that indivisible (non-separate) Reality has no cause-and-effect relationship with any conditions.

Even my dreaming is just more patterns arising, not something I am creating. Do I create thoughts? No, they are patterns of the brain-mind complex, just like dreaming. There is no "you" creating anything - it only seems that way from the position (or point-of-view) of the body-mind (ego-I).

edit on 6/1/2013 by bb23108 because: (no reason given)

Let's consider your suggestion. In terms of a dream, For the sake of helping yourself become lucid, you sent yourself a wake up call. In my case, it happens to be a 'messenger'. from this perspective, the message and intent of the messenger is no mystery to us.

Now, upon questioning the message and intent of this messenger. What should the messenger, sent by you and being you, say in response?

reply to post by Visitor2012


It doesnt take knowledge. Seeking the truth of 'nothingness' does not lie on the path of accumulation.

It is removing the layers of illusion that we put on ourselves, image of self, image of tribe, image of knowledge, image of perfection, image of life; that at the very end, there is 'nothing' left to uncover. When we reach this subtle awareness, we realize it does not push outwardly, it lies at the root of all experience.

Where does Brahman fit into all this dream maya stuff. What is real what is an illusion? Give me an example of Maya in an awake state of being.

Originally posted by preludefanguy
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

It doesnt take knowledge. Seeking the truth of 'nothingness' does not lie on the path of accumulation.

It is removing the layers of illusion that we put on ourselves, image of self, image of tribe, image of knowledge, image of perfection, image of life; that at the very end, there is 'nothing' left to uncover. When we reach this subtle awareness, we realize it does not push outwardly, it lies at the root of all experience.

Considering what you said for the moment, and still within the reality of the dream, how would one go about waking themselves out of it? How would they go about peeling away the illusion? What would you prescribe he do?

knowledge is not sufficient, apparently so, because a person in the dream could be an intellectual genius and it would not help him wake out of his own illusion from which his intellect is based.

Originally posted by Visitor2012
reply to post by Kody27

 

Free will is such an interesting subject. I found it to be fascinating when applying the concept to our dreams. Because, in the Dream world, it is virtually impossible to separate the character in the dream..from yourself. In addition, when looking at our dreams we see it from both sides. On one side, the wakened state, we see that we were the driving force of the entire dream, the doer of both the character and the environment. On the other side, the sleep state, we can remember feeling as though we were operating on our own free will. As separate and independent beings in an external world. In your dreams, it never feels as though you have a puppet master controlling your every movement.

That's when the incredibly deceptive illusion of free will is revealed. At least in relation to our Dreams. That if there is any free will at all, operating in our dreams, that power does not reside in the illusory self. It can only be exercised by the Real self. The True self, Meaning that which is the TOTALITY of the entire dream...the dreamer.

edit on 31-5-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

In a dream do you really have free will? Even when experiencing a "lucid" dream?

Were you really the driver of both the "character"/observer and the environment? Did you really create them? Were you aware you created them or have you concluded you created them?

If we haven't proof that free-will exists when awake, how can we prove it exists when experiencing a dream?

I posted a few replies on free-will on another thread, if anyone is interested (I won't repeat it here)...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In regards to free will. It obvious we all have what is called will. Its our ability to decide. Question is , is it free? Freedom is governen by laws of nature. No matter how hard i try I can not fly. Its not my nature. My will is not free. I can choose however to jump off a cliff and fly. regardess of our choices , the outcome is already determined. We are born, we live, we die. This has been determined, not by us. Naturally speaking.

Originally posted by Theophorus
Where does Brahman fit into all this dream maya stuff. What is real what is an illusion? Give me an example of Maya in an awake state of being.

edit on 1-6-2013 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)

If we were to apply the concept of Brahman to only our Dreams. You could say that Brahman would be you laying in your bed. In the dream world, Maya would be the entire dream and all phenomena in it, including the experience of mind, thought and all the senses.

In terms of your character's mind, all of it's thoughts and knowledge are derived from and based on it's observation of Maya. A dream. So thoughts and mind of the illusory self is also Maya. In other words, illusion.

So Maya is the entire dream, mind and thought phenomena. And the Maya in the dream, is created by you (the Brahman). Therefore you can say (in context of the Dream) Brahman is both the source (you), the phenomena (maya) and the illusory selves (the characters in the dream).

reply to post by Visitor2012

Dreams are dreams. Not real. Call it what you will, maya, brahman ect. They are just dreams no matter how you look at it. How does an awake, non dream state, have anything to do with what you are talking about. What is the relationship?

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

Dreams are dreams. Not real. Call it what you will, maya, brahman ect. They are just dreams no matter how you look at it. How does an awake, non dream state, have anything to do with what you are talking about. What is the relationship?

What we are playing with, is the relationships between the concepts of Maya and Brahman and that of our dream world. We're not talking about ultimate reality, because nobody knows what it is.

reply to post by Visitor2012
there is no such thing as Maya. The universe and everything in it is real. There is no connection between maya and the " real world" .. no proof or examples you can provide either.