Brahman, Maya, Truth and the illusion of Free will

Do you remember the last dream you had? All of the crazy and minute details of the dream world and the surroundings? Remember seeing all of the main characters of the dream, even the uninvolved people in the background?

Every night, being convinced of the illusion, and thinking, for the moment, that the dream is the ultimate reality. You get sold into the entire drama. Completely ignorant to the underlying reality of it all. With no memory of what came before the dream. In fact, unaware of the dream itself, and completely convinced that it is real. (Maya).

In a dream, your subconscious is powerful enough, to project this convincing virtual world in front of you. We, in our waking state, know that it is all an illusion, but while in the dream, we are completely unaware of it and fully enchanted by it.

In the wakened state, we know irrefutably, that our consciousness is behind every single character in the dream. Behind every single object in the dream, including the sun that is in the sky, the clouds, the entire World and every atom in it. The body you occupy in the dream, the pebble on the road , the Oceans, trees and animals. The Matter and the surrounding Emptiness. ALL form within the dream, made out of your consciousness. You are everything. We know this about our dream.

The only way to know the truth of our nightly dreams, is to wake up. When we awaken in the morning, we are enlightened to the illusion of the dream. Being reminded that it was a dream, not through understanding and philosophy. But from the intense and raw surge of reality flooding back into you when you open your eyes.

What about the 'I' in the dream? If the real you, is the TOTALITY of the entire dream, how could the 'I' act independently on its own? How could your dreamed self operate separately from you? While within the dream, it appears as though we are acting on our own free will. Making our own decisions and choosing our own way, independent of the external World. However in retrospect, we know that free will, perceived through the mind of the dreamed self, is actually, a grand illusion. That the dreamed self, believing itself to be acting on its own accord, is only doing so at the will of the one who's doing the dreaming. You.

Amen

Thanks for the well-considered example of the illusion that is the separate ego-I.

Non-duality, as understood since ancient days, teaches that no matter what we are experiencing, the one constant is awareness, whether that be apparently unconscious (deep sleep), subconscious (dreaming), or conscious (waking).

To the degree that awareness identifies with the changes only, there is the illusion of the separate ego-I. To the degree that one sees we are simply awareness, non-separate from all changes but not identified with such changes - we are free.

Of course, we tend to identify awareness with the changes rather than simply being the witness of such changes, but regardless, in Reality, we are simply the witness, awareness itself, in which all changes are occurring.

How does one simply and always abide as the witness - consciousness or awareness itself? Of course, that is the subject of great consideration relative to true spiritual practice in all aspects of life.

Great thread.

The dream self is unaware that it is just a dream. The dream self smack dab in the middle of.a scenario with no context of.before the scenario appeared, yet the dream self plays the role of the scenario as if it knows the scenario is reality.

The lucid dream is when the dream learns the truth of its existence, that it is being dreamed. The dreamer is then given access to consciously create the dream. I wonder if there is a parallel where maybe we live in a world where by us believing that we are in control here, we are not allowing the glorious manifestation of the supreme, true self to occur.

Prior to the lucid dream, the dream self believes that it is in control of its reality. For the lucid dream to occur, the dream self.has to realize that it is in a dream, which implies a dreamer. After the lucid dream, the dream self has awareness of the true self. The dream self is made.aware that even though the elements of the dream may represent elements from a.higher reality, those elements, within the dream, are all created by and fully controlled.by the dreamer.

Again, great thread.

On the topic of.free will as it relates to the dream. The dream self lives in a reality where its actions seem to be consistent with that reality. If the dream self is to have any bearing on whether or not it gets realized, the dream self would do well to prepare for the intervention of the dreamer by realizing that the dreamer probably has a totally different view of how its will would play out if given control of the dream. The view of the dreamer would be so.different than the view of the dream self that the dream self cannot possibly know what would come once lucidity occurred. After all, the dream self, unrealized, only knows what should come within the context of its created reality. Once the dreamer is given conscious control, the dream self becomes subject to the free will of the dreamer, who will have absolute control over every aspect of the dream, to the extent that the dream self understands that all is the dreamer dreaming.

reply to post by Visitor2012

In fact, unaware of the dream itself, and completely convinced that it is real. (Maya).

Can I ask a rather obvious question? Why do we even talk about this philosophical issue? Seriously. Most people act as if they had free will, and as a society we expect for them to understand that they have the power to force their will to desist from following unlawful behavior. How significant is this fact? What point is there in saying "Free will doesn't exist", and claim your proof is the analogy of dreaming.

In any moral situation, free will can become relevant and called into play. Shannon is depressed because she broke up with her boyfriend. Now she's moping around and hardly listening to what I'm telling her. I'm annoyed by this, I feel feelings of anger, but still, I know I shouldn't act this way. Which way shall I go? The physiologically indicated motion, and berate her? Or will I calm myself and treat her with beneficent patience?

This is a basic everyday fact. So whether you argue that this is a built in response mechanism that is "switched" on by evolutionarily processes which preserve the benefit social relations, or some angel up above guiding our actions according to Brahmas infinite omniscience, it doesn't make a difference in our everyday behavior. We've come to know that we can control our behaviors if we simply will it.

But from the intense and raw surge of reality flooding back into you when you open your eyes.

....Which is annotated by the self reflective mind and it's adjacent philosophy.

You realize there is no direct connection between "enlightenment" and "waking up enlightened". There's a process towards enlightenment, and it can only be pursued along the path of philosophy.

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

In fact, unaware of the dream itself, and completely convinced that it is real. (Maya).

Can I ask a rather obvious question? Why do we even talk about this philosophical issue? Seriously. Most people act as if they had free will, and as a society we expect for them to understand that they have the power to force their will to desist from following unlawful behavior. How significant is this fact? What point is there in saying "Free will doesn't exist", and claim your proof is the analogy of dreaming.

In any moral situation, free will can become relevant and called into play. Shannon is depressed because she broke up with her boyfriend. Now she's moping around and hardly listening to what I'm telling her. I'm annoyed by this, I feel feelings of anger, but still, I know I shouldn't act this way. Which way shall I go? The physiologically indicated motion, and berate her? Or will I calm myself and treat her with beneficent patience?

This is a basic everyday fact. So whether you argue that this is a built in response mechanism that is "switched" on by evolutionarily processes which preserve the benefit social relations, or some angel up above guiding our actions according to Brahmas infinite omniscience, it doesn't make a difference in our everyday behavior. We've come to know that we can control our behaviors if we simply will it.

But from the intense and raw surge of reality flooding back into you when you open your eyes.

....Which is annotated by the self reflective mind and it's adjacent philosophy.

You realize there is no direct connection between "enlightenment" and "waking up enlightened". There's a process towards enlightenment, and it can only be pursued along the path of philosophy.

In terms of my original post, which is in reference to Dreams, I asked a simple question. Can the dreamed-self, act on his own accord? Can he act independent of You?

In regards to your comments on enlightenment. There is a similar process one takes when mastering the Lucid state. And it has only to do with working with the body's energy system. I've yet to hear anyone accomplishing Lucidity by employing philosophy and belief systems. Likewise, there are many forms of yoga that work purely with the Body's energy system to help one raise their level of perception. No philosophy, no talking required....and no path. So you are highly mistaken.

There is no such thing as 'waking up enlightened'. The two words are Synonymous.

reply to post by Visitor2012

In terms of my original post, which is in reference to Dreams, I asked a simple question. Can the dreamed-self, act on his own accord? Can he act independent of You?

So, in other words, you don't take dreaming as a metaphor, but as an EXACT reflection of life?

Since you're talking about dreams, and how dreams apparently serve as a template for actual reality, then what do you make of the people in our dreams? Since dreams represent emotions in imagery, and these are nothing other than my emotions, than logically speaking, you, the person I'm speaking with, are a reflection of my emotional reality. And likewise, I am an expression of your emotional reality. And where does that take us?

You seem to have a problem addressing that fact. What I wrote earlier was to point out the vanity i.e. uselessness, of claiming free will doesn't exist. Even though, in practice, were gonna go on believing and acting as if we can say no and yes to external stimulus.

I've yet to hear anyone accomplishing Lucidity by employing philosophy and belief systems

Follow me. You are point A. If you don't think, move, feel, you are still conscious. In order to move to the awareness of "all is one" - Point C - you need to have some conceptual understanding of what it is you're pursuing. In between point A and C - point B - is a stream of conscious experiences: studying philosophy books, speaking with teachers and kindred spirits, engaging in guided meditations. This is all "philosophy". All of this happens in the non "non-dualistic" sphere of everyday living.

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

In fact, unaware of the dream itself, and completely convinced that it is real. (Maya).

In terms of my original post, which is in reference to Dreams, I asked a simple question. Can the dreamed-self, act on his own accord? Can he act independent of You?

In regards to your comments on enlightenment. There is a similar process one takes when mastering the Lucid state. And it has only to do with working with the body's energy system. I've yet to hear anyone accomplishing Lucidity by employing philosophy and belief systems. Likewise, there are many forms of yoga that work purely with the Body's energy system to help one raise their level of perception. No philosophy, no talking required....and no path. So you are highly mistaken.

There is no such thing as 'waking up enlightened'. The two words are Synonymous

The dreaming self can act of its own accord. It can make decisions, there is a point I am trying to understand where "dreaming" becomes "out of body". In an out of body state I can eat, taste, smell, have sexual unions and define outcome to scenarios, (as in end them). In dreamstate I am at the mercy of obligation to "learn a lesson" generally; can I solve a problem; a volcano errupts, a lion is about to consume me, getting out of the situation is primal (without waking up as that is cheating the lesson). The dreaming self can act upon its own accord, but blows it by waking up. You can in dreamstate affect a different outcome, rare is it that you change the script awaken and even remember the LIFE lesson the original manuscript was trying to demonstrate.

If the analogy of our dream life accurately applies to our waking life, then honestly, theres nothing you can do to awaken. The dream self does not realize that it is a dream without the dreamer effecting that realization beforehand. Ive actually had a few dreams where my dream self knew that it was in a dream, but my real self and my dream self did not merge. Being aware within a dream is a matter of knowing that every part of the dream is really you and your awareness is directly proportional to the extent of your control over the whole dream.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Great thread.

The dream self is unaware that it is just a dream. The dream self smack dab in the middle of.a scenario with no context of.before the scenario appeared, yet the dream self plays the role of the scenario as if it knows the scenario is reality.

The lucid dream is when the dream learns the truth of its existence, that it is being dreamed. The dreamer is then given access to consciously create the dream. I wonder if there is a parallel where maybe we live in a world where by us believing that we are in control here, we are not allowing the glorious manifestation of the supreme, true self to occur.

Prior to the lucid dream, the dream self believes that it is in control of its reality. For the lucid dream to occur, the dream self.has to realize that it is in a dream, which implies a dreamer. After the lucid dream, the dream self has awareness of the true self. The dream self is made.aware that even though the elements of the dream may represent elements from a.higher reality, those elements, within the dream, are all created by and fully controlled.by the dreamer.

Again, great thread.

Excellent reply. When you become Lucid in a dream, whatever you were in the dream..is immediately
dissolved and replaced with your true self. The illusory self, is not around to help the lucid process, because it vanishes the moment lucidity begins. So that's an interesting challenge. How does the illusory self (the one in the dream) awaken to its own illusion? How can something, which is itself an illusion, will anything at all?

Originally posted by Astrocyte
reply to post by Visitor2012

 

In terms of my original post, which is in reference to Dreams, I asked a simple question. Can the dreamed-self, act on his own accord? Can he act independent of You?

So, in other words, you don't take dreaming as a metaphor, but as an EXACT reflection of life?

Since you're talking about dreams, and how dreams apparently serve as a template for actual reality, then what do you make of the people in our dreams? Since dreams represent emotions in imagery, and these are nothing other than my emotions, than logically speaking, you, the person I'm speaking with, are a reflection of my emotional reality. And likewise, I am an expression of your emotional reality. And where does that take us?

You seem to have a problem addressing that fact. What I wrote earlier was to point out the vanity i.e. uselessness, of claiming free will doesn't exist. Even though, in practice, were gonna go on believing and acting as if we can say no and yes to external stimulus.

I've yet to hear anyone accomplishing Lucidity by employing philosophy and belief systems

Follow me. You are point A. If you don't think, move, feel, you are still conscious. In order to move to the awareness of "all is one" - Point C - you need to have some conceptual understanding of what it is you're pursuing. In between point A and C - point B - is a stream of conscious experiences: studying philosophy books, speaking with teachers and kindred spirits, engaging in guided meditations. This is all "philosophy". All of this happens in the non "non-dualistic" sphere of everyday living.

My original post is about a dream. Drawing parallels between the dream state and the concepts of Maya, Truth, Brahman and free will. This is not about enlightenment. You are taking this topic completely out of its scope.

Is it possible for you to answer the question as it relates to dreams? You seem intelligent, so this should be easy for you to address as well. Does the person in the dream, have free will? Can he act independent of you?

Originally posted by smithjustinb
If the analogy of our dream life accurately applies to our waking life, then honestly, theres nothing you can do to awaken. The dream self does not realize that it is a dream without the dreamer effecting that realization beforehand. Ive actually had a few dreams where my dream self knew that it was in a dream, but my real self and my dream self did not merge. Being aware within a dream is a matter of knowing that every part of the dream is really you and your awareness is directly proportional to the extent of your control over the whole dream.

I have found this to be true also. It's been my experience that Lucidity is being initiated and carried out by the Dreamer, and not by the actions and efforts of the one IN the dream.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Considering that you ARE the character in the dream (as well as everything else in the dream), how does your dream-self act independently of you? Yes, the dreamt-self can have its own likes and dislikes, it's own tendencies and anxieties, but how can it have its own independent will?

In the dream, it appears as though you are indeed acting independently of the external world. But is it true, or is it an illusion?

Originally posted by Visitor2012

Originally posted by smithjustinb
Great thread.

The dream self is unaware that it is just a dream. The dream self smack dab in the middle of.a scenario with no context of.before the scenario appeared, yet the dream self plays the role of the scenario as if it knows the scenario is reality.

The lucid dream is where the dream learns the truth of its existence, that it is being dreamed. The dreamer is then given access to consciously create the dream. I wonder if there is a parallel where maybe we live in a world where by us believing that we are in control here, we are not allowing the glorious manifestation of the supreme, true self to occur.

Prior to the lucid dream, the dream self believes that it is in control of its reality. For the lucid dream to occur, the dream self.has to realize that it is in a dream, which implies a dreamer. After the lucid dream, the dream self has awareness of the true self. The dream self is made.aware that even though the elements of the dream may represent elements from a.higher reality, those elements, within the dream, are all created by and fully controlled.by the dreamer.

Again, great thread.

Excellent reply. When you become Lucid in a dream, whatever you were in the dream..is immediately
dissolved and replaced with your true self. The illusory self, is not around to help the lucid process, because it vanishes the moment lucidity begins. So that's an interesting challenge. How does the illusory self (the one in the dream) awaken to its own illusion? How can something, which is itself an illusion, will anything at all?

edit on 31-5-2013 by Visitor2012 because: (no reason given)

The dream is just happening on its own until the dreamer becomes aware that it is dreaming. Then the dreamer has absolute control directly proportional to the extent that it knows it is dreaming and to the extent that it knows that what is in.the dream is really a manifestation of the dreamers mind. But then, once control is established by the dreamer, who is dreaming up the dreamer?

We have the opportunity to have a lucid dream and get the results we are speaking of. Is there really anything higher or anything else? We.try so hard to achieve the results of lucidity, even outside the context of this analogy, but what will come of it that we cant achieve much easier by lucid dreaming? The absolute limitation od the lucid dream is the imagination. The only thing that would make trying to wake up from the dream that is reality a more worthwhile pursuit than waking up from the dream is if we gain access to the unimaginable. Since I cant imagine what the unimaginable would be, theres really no use trying to do anything other than play my role and enjoy it. Its the dreamer that makes the effort to realize it is dreaming, it isnt the dream that makes the effort. The dreamer realizes the dream, not the other way around.

So that why we place importance on love. Because in this world that you were thrown into when you were born and mafe subject to its laws, its about the only thing you can do. Just accept what it is. You are the dream until the dreamer comes to create the unimaginable. The problem is, you are the part of rhe dream that is unwilling to see that you are one with all and that you are being dreamed.

Originally posted by smithjustinb
You are the dream until the dreamer comes to create the unimaginable. The problem is, you are the part of rhe dream that is unwilling to see that you are one with all and that you are being dreamed.

Who is the dreamer? That one is unimaginable.
Can the dream ever be separated from the dreamer? The dream is in the dreamer and the dreamer is in the dream.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by smithjustinb
You are the dream until the dreamer comes to create the unimaginable. The problem is, you are the part of rhe dream that is unwilling to see that you are one with all and that you are being dreamed.

Who is the dreamer? That one is unimaginable.
Can the dream ever be separated from the dreamer? The dream is in the dreamer and the dreamer is in the dream.

Think that sums it up.

Excellent thread

I'm thinking the first people who realized they were awake compared to their dreaming tribesmen and women decided to use it for themselves and everybody has been dreaming in their dream eversince. How else can we know about being awake and asleep, this world and another everyone visits at night yet still call it all just a dream.

reply to post by Visitor2012


This is an interesting topic that I've pondered about for years. I have a few theories, one possibility is that when we dream we are not simply experiencing manifestations of our subconscious as much as we are having astral travels or out of body experiences. This does not account for all "dreams" though, and I put dreams in quotations because I do not believe that dreaming is just one thing. I believe that we can and do experience our subconscious thoughts and desires in our sleep, sometimes. I also believe that in a deep enough state of rest, we leave our bodies and have astral travels, or we simply experience the thoughts and memories of others, whether they be in a different galaxy or in a different time altogether. Like Carl Jung's collective unconscious, if his theory were true, then every single living thing in the entire universe would pull from a collective unconscious. So would it be implausible to assume that when we go to sleep, we are unconscious, and being unconscious we interact with the source of all information that all living things pull from? Like the wet rag metaphor; imagine a rag hanging on the side of a bucket of water. The dry part of the rag hanging off is your conscious mind, the wet part of the rag that is half submersed is your subconscious mind, and the water itself is the unconscious mind. The water permeates the entire universe, and we are all half wet rags dipped in the same bucket. So when our conscious recedes back into the bucket, would it be so unlikely that our experiences and consciousnesses would interact or interweave, overlap or mix together even?

Also, the idea of having free will in your dream does sometimes seem like an illusion to me. It's as if I am experiencing events in the dream first hand, from a first person point of view, but I am not necessarily making decisions in the dreamworld based on logic in the real world. Meaning, I seem to be sort of in control of what I say and do, but most of the time when I remember my dreams I have no idea why I said and did the things in my dream. For example, my father has been dead for almost 6 years now. Yet, when I have a dream that he is alive and in my new house, I don't ever stop to think and question his existence, I simply accept it as if it were no big deal. Now if I truly had free will in my dream, you would think that I would be able to apply logic from my experiences, memories, and thoughts to situations in my dream, but I don't. So, wouldn't free will require the knowledge of choices to be made based on past experiences? If you have no reference from the real world in your dreams, then are you really choosing what you do, or are your dreams like movies sometimes and the events simply play out in front of you regardless of your "free will"? This is an amazing mystery to me.