Undeniable Proof of Intelligent Design.

Another example, trying to keep this easy.

We can safely assume that the way our body is shaped, it's size, bone size etc. depends also on our earth's gravity. Creatures on a hypothetical small moon or small planet could likely have LARGER bodies, long extremities, thin necks and rather thin bones too since gravity would not cause a problem.

Creatures on a planet with heavy gravity might be rather small, maybe even flat since a large gravity would lkely not allow them grow tall. THIS IS JUST ONE EXAMPLE.

So or so, the outcome will always be amazingly "fine tuned" with the environment where such creatures would live.

"Flawed" organisms might at some point MAYBE pop-up but then die out when it turns out they are not fit for the environment. You will in all likelihood NOT find giraffes or other animals with very long necks on a planet with extreme high gravity. MAGIC? No. Design? Uh...no. Coincidence? Of course not.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

I thought it affected the tides and such?

It does. Is that it's "purpose"?

You are telling me there is no purpose whatever to the universe.

Am I?

it seems you are, perhaps you can explain it so I can understand.

Hmmm, just doesn't seem right to me.

You're welcome to your opinion.

Yep and you are welcome to yours.

But of course you have a humanist viewpoint and I don't I think a creative force "designed" everything and in which man can operate and you think man created it.

I don't recall expressing anything like that. I said that mathematics is a creation of humans. I didn't say man created reality.

ok so in one sense you say man created mathematics, that is mathematics exists only in the mind of man, and not in the creation of the Universe, therefore you are inferring that man created reality. Maybe you can still explain it to me so I can understand.

Originally posted by Afewloosescrews

In case you missed it, the OP is arguing that our conditions on earth cannot conceivably be coincidence.

Yeah, and who says it is coincidence? No one halfway knowledgeable would state that.

reply to post by flexy123

Yeah, and who says it is coincidence

Yes, they are. Either it is by design and by ordered mathematics and physics or it is happenstance. Which is it?
I have people telling me that man created math and physics but did not create reality, and yet math and physics is embedded within the real Universe. I think there is a disconnect somewhere in there. And that disconnect is humanist philosophy, whether the person is officially humanist or not.

Originally posted by kauskau
"lunatics"..

oh god..synchronicity..is such an awesome idea..

one day it will be clear that the moon was placed by intellligent beings..

Busy little ****ers, placing so many moons all around the solar system's planets and billions of solar systems with billions of planets. Heck, today I even saw an image of the passing asteroid today which has, in fact, a moon.

So..let's just roughly calculate there might be 100.000,000,000 billion billions moons in this universe, I am eager to hear what each of their "purpose" is.

By the way, Jupiter alone as of today has 63 moons..let's start with them. (I am quite aware that some might only be small boulders...but anyway..I would want to know their "purpose"..please).

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Can you give us enough evidence to believe that it was not chance? It seems to me that the majority of your support stems from a willingness to believe rather than an inarguable foundation. Otherwise, you would have acknowledged the broad margin of error in the celestial bodies that belies intelligent direction.

Originally posted by flexy123

Originally posted by Afewloosescrews

In case you missed it, the OP is arguing that our conditions on earth cannot conceivably be coincidence.

Yeah, and who says it is coincidence? No one halfway knowledgeable would state that.

The author of the post that I was responding to does.

reply to post by flexy123

am eager to hear what each of their "purpose" is.

Maybe it's the same purpose as you eating and defecating.

Just because you don't perceive it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

ok so in one sense you say man created mathematics, that is mathematics exists only in the mind of man, and not in the creation of the Universe, therefore you are inferring that man created reality. Maybe you can still explain it to me so I can understand.

You are making that inference, not I.

Mathematics are not reality. Some branches of mathematics can represent reality, can mimic reality, but they are not reality. On the other hand, some branches of mathematics (sometimes referred to as pure mathematics) have no connection with reality, math for math's sake.

I was let down when I came into this thread.
I mean c'mon,who wouldnt?
After a title with "Undeniable Proof" in it.
And not to find any,well bugger all.....

But in the end,its just another "theory",period.

Ok,next....

reply to post by Black_Fox

Same as all the other detractors - nothing to see here move along.. just a theory, must be all just due to chance (because the alternative isn't an acceptable interpretation of the data).

reply to post by Phage

You are making that inference, not I

I was just trying to follow your logic. Sorry I didn't perceive it the way you intended.

Mathematics is not reality? ok maybe it is just in how we see things after all.

One reason why mathematics enjoys special esteem, above all other sciences, is that its propositions are absolutely certain and indisputable, ... How can it be that mathematics, being after all a product of human thought which is independent of experience, is so admirably appropriate to the objects of reality. (Albert Einstein)

And now, thanks to some great wave machine technology you can actually see how waves can form patterns / numbers. Thus you can see for yourselves how mathematical logic can exist in the universe due to the logical interconnection of wave patterns.

www.spaceandmotion.com...

If existence isn't reality, then what is?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I just think the science of best guess is all theory.
Im willing to simply say I dont know.
And nobody really does.
Its better when people just admit that.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

(because the alternative isn't an acceptable interpretation of the data).

The alternative is not a necessary interpretation.
But I still haven't even seen you demonstrate any "coincidences" here. Just that we have evolved to suit our environment. No indication of the converse, that the environment was created for our benefit.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Phage

 

And all I'm saying is that it's not luck at all but was clearly made by design with the intent of producing the life on Earth that we see and experience, and that furthermore, yes the whole of all creation has been created and fine tuned in such a way so as to make experience, including our experience, possible. This is just deductive reasoning, not the fancy of a solipsistic narcissism.

A tornado takes out your house. Your pets are missing. Some neighbors were killed. You want to believe that a god did this out of love of some kind. You want to believe that the tornado was a message directly from god and directly to you and your community. Somebody's sin did this. It's a warning to turn away from something that god doesn't like you doing.

And yet, it's just a tornado. They happen all the time. Speaking of luck, this is just bad luck, of living in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now expand this to the Big Bang. You want to believe that a god did this just for you, and for humanity. Nah, it's just a thing of mindless nature that has probably happened before and will probably happen again. This time, though, YES, we were lucky.

reply to post by jiggerj

And yet, it's just a tornado

Well, there goes the theory that a tornado is created by man and anthropological means. The AGW theory people will be so mad.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

If existence isn't reality, then what is?

I don't see anything there that says mathematics is existence, or reality.

I see that Einstein agrees with me in that mathematics ("a product of human thought") can represent reality. That quote is taken very much out of context btw, There is a lot stuff missing between that "certain and indisputable" and that "How can it be that mathematics". There is also this, which comes after it:

In my opinion the answer to this question is, briefly, this: — As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.

en.wikisource.org...

Sounds about like what I said. Doesn't it? Mathematics can represent reality, sort of, but not perfectly. And when mathematics are perfect (as in pure mathematics), they do not represent reality.

reply to post by Phage


So mathematics is man-made and therefore only representative of the Universe but not exactly, so it's not real. Ok thanks for the clarity. So for the physical universe to be real does it have to be perceived by man?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

That's right. Mathematics is a creation of the human mind (as Einstein said).
Mathematics are not reality. The universe is not composed of mathematics. The universe does not "contain" mathematics.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

You've missed the point that the set up is perfectly tuned, as a precondition, to favor the evolution of life in all of it's forms here on earth, and that the configuration isn't random or arbitrary but poised precisely right on the fine line where the emergence of life is assured, even this life we see and experience. Again, the strong anthropic principal doesn't render the data meaningless.

You continue to confuse cause for effect. Not only can you provide no evidence that "the set up is perfectly tuned", you can't even show that the set up is tunable.