72 Year-Old-Man Shot Dead By Trigger Happy Cops In His Own Garage, page 2

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:53 AM

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reply to post by CALGARIAN

Cops are outnumbered 1,000 to 1 nationally. If 5% of a town decided to wipe their local PD out they'd have no problem doing so.

The difference between cops and non-cops is cops are usually not found alone and cops dont hesitate in killing anyone. Non-cops are often found alone and are not walking around with the "kill anyone who scares me" attitude so they will hesitate.

If people came to the conclusion that they lived behind enemy lines (as cops have) given the grossly unbalanced ratio the cops would lose.

DestroyDestroyDestroy

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:54 AM

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reply to post by caladonea

Revolution in America? Hah!

People revolt when they are hungry, not when their neighbors get shot by cops. The day that food becomes a scarcity in America is the day that people will rise up and overthrow the current power structure.

That day won't come for a very long while.

pyrodude

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 12:16 PM

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We had a similar situation to this in Texas a few years back. A swat crew went to serve a warrant to a suspected drug dealer, however someone somewhere messed up the address and they went to the wrong house. They bust in, homeowners swear they had no knock, no ID as cops, they just busted in. Homeowner thought it was a break in and pulled a shotgun and was killed in a halestorm of bullets. Now I know mistakes happen and we dont get the full story but these stories are coming up way too often.

To all the Aussies and UK'ers posting in this thread - Regardless of your views, this is America and we are allowed by law to own weapons and to protect our lives and property. So lets move away from your no guns theories and come up with some better solutions that don't involve you haphazardly condemning my rights.

LockNLoad

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 12:18 PM

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Originally posted by antiobama
reply to post by caladonea

The revolution, It has already started,

abcnews.go.com...

From the above article:

""I can assure you we won't give up on this person until we have him either in custody or in the front side of one of our weapons and I personally hope the latter is the choice," said Chief McCubbin. "

The Chief of police calling for the persons execution.... It really is a sad sad world we live in.

gunshooter

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 02:37 PM

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Originally posted by fiftyfifty
I hate to say it but would this guy have been shot if he hadn't gone out there with a gun in his hand? It's easy enough to blame the cops but if you were in their position searching an area for a suspected burglar and you suddenly came across a man with a gun in his hand, what would you do?

What if this old guy came out with a gun and found someone on his property other than police? Would he have opened fire? It could then have turned out to be a neighbour out searching for his missing dog. Would the neighbour have deserved to die for trespassing?

I know there are major cultural differences on this subject between the US and many other countries but if this was in the UK, the victim would have been unarmed, told to get on the ground and searched. It's like the fact that a high percentage of stab victims in the UK are stabbed with their own knives. If you are armed in any way, you stand a higher chance of being killed in self-defence. I don't expect Americans to change their opinions on guns and respect their right to bear arms however, they need to respect that they are deadly weapons and take lives in a flash whether it be a cop, burglar, murderer, child or pregnant woman. Once that trigger is pulled, there is no going back.
edit on 30-5-2013 by fiftyfifty because: (no reason given)

I'll tell you what I'd do. My job, correctly, which means properly identifying yourself, and telling the suspect to drop the weapon first before shooting. Police have protocols to follow, not just to be execution squads. Its R.O.E. even soldiers have to follow it. Blowing your load before identifying your target leads to idiotic mistakes like this.

jrod

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 03:01 PM

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This happens. When cops see a gun they are conditioned to shoot. I know there are many well trained police out there, but it only takes one trigger happy cop on a call for this to happen.

It is unfortunate. There is often little recourse for the victim's family, they are usually told that you should have called 911 first.

I'll call a mayday on ch.16 before I ever dial 911 for good reason.

edit on 30-5-2013 by jrod because: (no reason given)

sylent6

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 03:21 PM

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This happen in Fort Worth really?? Those cops should known better. I bet some rook seen the man with the gun and shot him for that exact purpose because he had a gun!

This is so sad and it just hurt me to just read this article of what this woman has to go through.

I am so feed up with the stupid ish coming from our police departments.

Sandalphon

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 04:12 PM

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Six times in the chest. The g-d burglar wouldn't have fired so directly. Oh by the way, did they get the burglar?

Yeah, one of the new cops must have had just gotten back from a tour of duty and hadn't quite gotten his bearings of what country he was in now. The decent soldiers tend to be wayward cops if it's been less than three years since they left a foreign country. They still have the shell-shocked experience and they tend to revert to their military programming ways when put under stress. That means they break the rules that the police have, and then the region gets screw ups and cover ups, plus the new cop tends to be a sucker for corruption along military lines. Then the power tripping goes into police cliques and you wind up finding more news about corruption discovered.

Six times. No sense of accountability to the natives.

In conspiracy land, maybe it was a ruse, that the burglary was fake, and the real motive was to draw out the victim, Jerry, who looks like he might have been a veteran, his posture in his photo suggests he was in the... Navy? Maybe "Jerry" was a mobster in a witness protection program, had a previous lifetime of crime, and got whacked; his septum suggests some 1970s parties. Just some hypotheticals.

edit on 30-5-2013 by Sandalphon because: (no reason given)

Kang69

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 04:14 PM

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Common Good

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 04:50 PM

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Originally posted by Sankari
If only this had been a gun free zone!

...You are right- the dead old man is victim because of madmen terrorist gangsters. The police. People ALLOWED to respond to those situations which occur after mass murders.

Oh wait... it wasn't a gun free zone...

--=-Your right- It wasnt....It was a mans home. He defended it the best he could. But was murdered by the Posse anyways.

If only this man had had a gun, he could have defended himself and prevented this unnecessary death!
Oh wait... he did have a gun...

__- Yup- and they had more.

Gee, looks like the usual slogans aren't working.

__-Yours sure arent. Why do I even bother responding to such trash responses on this site anymore? Probably because I cant handle seeing stupid be cheered.

__-

edit on 30-5-2013 by Common Good because: (no reason given)

StoicMystic

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 10:46 PM

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Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
reply to post by caladonea

Revolution in America? Hah!

People revolt when they are hungry, not when their neighbors get shot by cops. The day that food becomes a scarcity in America is the day that people will rise up and overthrow the current power structure.

That day won't come for a very long while.

This could very well be true, we can hope, however.

buster2010

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:09 PM

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Originally posted by CALGARIAN
That's why I think it's funny that Americans want to have guns to protect themselves against the government from getting too big and powerful.

If you shoot a cop, there will be 10 there to kill you.

That depends on what state you are in. In my state if a cop comes into my house without a search warrant I have every right to use lethal force against him.

BobSwagger

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:19 PM

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reply to post by fiftyfifty

They should respect the fact that 1)The supreme law of the land says he can keep and bear arms and 2) ordered him to drop it and identified themselves before firing. I was taught to always identify my targets before firing, and I wouldn't deem a 72 year old man holding a gun at the side a threat until he raised it to me.

Liquesence

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:26 PM

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Originally posted by fiftyfifty
I hate to say it but would this guy have been shot if he hadn't gone out there with a gun in his hand? It's easy enough to blame the cops but if you were in their position searching an area for a suspected burglar and you suddenly came across a man with a gun in his hand, what would you do?

What if this old guy came out with a gun and found someone on his property other than police? Would he have opened fire? It could then have turned out to be a neighbour out searching for his missing dog. Would the neighbour have deserved to die for trespassing?

I know there are major cultural differences on this subject between the US and many other countries but if this was in the UK, the victim would have been unarmed, told to get on the ground and searched. It's like the fact that a high percentage of stab victims in the UK are stabbed with their own knives. If you are armed in any way, you stand a higher chance of being killed in self-defence. I don't expect Americans to change their opinions on guns and respect their right to bear arms however, they need to respect that they are deadly weapons and take lives in a flash whether it be a cop, burglar, murderer, child or pregnant woman. Once that trigger is pulled, there is no going back.
edit on 30-5-2013 by fiftyfifty because: (no reason given)

I hope you're being sarcastic.

If not, you're implying that cops are justified in opening fire on any person with a gun without cause, which is simply ridiculous and wrong. A man in the US has (or is supposed to have) the freedom and safety to walk on his own private property without fear of being shot by trigger happy cops. Cops are supposed to be trained, disciplined.

As far as your last paragraph, yes there are great cultural differences. One reason some of our ancestors left that place. Other than that, your comparison of the US to the UK in those regards is a non-point.

**Granted, I would not be surprised if this man, while hearing sounds outside and going outside, might have been a bit confrontation (not knowing the cops were out there, "Hey! Who the hell's back there?!"), and the cops, true, not knowing he was a resident, BUT they should have shown disciple and restraint before popping off a bunch of rounds without positively identifying the subject and assessing the threat potential.

Liquesence

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:28 PM

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Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by CALGARIAN
That's why I think it's funny that Americans want to have guns to protect themselves against the government from getting too big and powerful.

If you shoot a cop, there will be 10 there to kill you.

That depends on what state you are in. In my state if a cop comes into my house without a search warrant I have every right to use lethal force against him.

Then you better hope your kill him instantly. Regardless if you have the "right" to use lethal force, all he has to do is radio "officer down! I need backup!" and you're likely toast, because LE is like a bunch of ants, or yellow jackets.

But it *is* good the courts have ruled as such in your state.

Pilgrum

posted on May, 30 2013 @ 11:45 PM

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Absolutely tragic regardless of how it came about.
But, the story is somewhat one-sided at this time and we don't know whether he was ordered (and refused to comply) to put down the weapon which was obviously in his hand and almost certainly pointed at the officers in question giving them little time to think about negotiation techniques. Staring down the barrel of a pistol pointed at you qualifies as a reason to believe your life is endangered. If the light was behind the victim all the officers see at night is a silhouette with a weapon aimed at them.

Seems there is a gun problem over there.

JiggyPotamus

posted on May, 31 2013 @ 12:20 AM

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And another horrible thing is that none of these officers will own up to their mistake. They will lie and lie some more, and will make it look as if they had no other option. I am quite positive this guy did not go out there and attempt to hurt the police. Old timers like this usually have quite a bit of respect for the police, and he had no reason to go out there and do anything to cause the police to shoot him. And I am quite certain that if they saw his weapon, they could have stated they were police, and got him to put it down.

He was not going to confront the police if he knew they were police. That is another thing. Stupid police officers don't even announce themselves, but want to start shooting people who are simply trying to defend their property. It is ridiculous, and I have lost any respect I had for police in general. There are probably some good cops still out there, but even some of the good cops are not going to stand up for what is right in their own department. They will not risk their job to stand up for what is right. There will be no justice in this case, because police are not there to serve and protect anymore, they are there solely to exercise authority, and hope someone does something they don't like. Many deserve to be in jail. They should be held to a much higher standard, given the nature of their job. Yet they are held to a much lower standard of behavior. Many obviously have psychological problems, and NEVER should have been allowed to become police officers in the first place.

defcon5

posted on May, 31 2013 @ 12:21 AM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

From what I'm reading, including the news summery of the police call to the 911 center, this was a tragic accident, and there is fault on both sides.

According to the 911 call, the officer Hoeppner told him repeatedly to drop his weapon before firing. The officer most likely was “shining” him with his flashlight, and victim would not be able to see if it was in fact the police or a burglar. As such he would of course be reluctant to drop his weapon. This is standard police procedure, and its intentionally done to blind whoever they are targeting. At the same time though, it means that the person cannot visually verify that they are in fact police, and have to trust that its not a criminal saying they are an officer to disarm them. Its a bad policy IMHO, and the police I know get the brightest, most blinding flashlights possible just for this purpose.

The police additionally reported the “shooting” to the wrong address, and obviously thought they were at the scene where the alarm was triggered. This is an honest mistake though, and I find it hard to fault the police for it in a dark, unfamiliar neighborhood with possible unattached garages, sheds, etc...

At the same time, there is a reason its called a “concealed weapons” permit... As in you are supposed to have it concealed unless you are in imminent danger. He should not have had the gun in hand to go outside looking into what was happening. For that matter, he should not have gone outside at all. He should have called the police, then stayed in his house and protected himself and his wife. Honestly, is there anything in anyone’s garage that is worth getting killed over, whether it be by the police or a criminal?

IMHO, this will be ruled as an accidental shooting, which to me it appears to be. We will continue to see this kind of stuff as long as we have gun laws allowing folks to play police officer, and attempt to enforce the law themselves.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 5/31/2013 by defcon5 because: (no reason given)

Evanzsayz

posted on May, 31 2013 @ 02:56 AM

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Fort Worth police spokeswoman Cpl. Tracey Knight said two officers -- each with less than a year on the force -- responded to a burglar alarm call and feared for their lives when they encountered the armed homeowner

Sounds like some rookie cops that couldn't wait for that excuse to shoot someone.

Bob Sholtz

posted on May, 31 2013 @ 03:16 AM

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Originally posted by Sankari
If only this had been a gun free zone!

Oh wait... it wasn't a gun free zone...

If only this man had had a gun, he could have defended himself and prevented this unnecessary death!

Oh wait... he did have a gun...

Gee, looks like the usual slogans aren't working.

i fail to understand your points. neither apply to the situation, and both hint at contrasting opinions.

the only point that is valid in this situation is "do you really want only the police and military owning guns?". they invaded his property (the wrong property), and shot him while he was well within his rights to go outside with a gun and check out what was happening. there was a robbery and police are running around with guns not thinking that average citizens might have the same idea to arm themselves against intruders!

he probably could have shot at the police, or hit an officer, but he didn't. his last thoughts were probably "good, the police are here" *bam bam bam bam bam....bam*