Meaning of life solved? You decide!

reply to post by HD3DSURROUNDSOUND



Thanks, there is surely much more to everything than we could possibly ever know. I am referring to this life and the afterlife, my personal belief is we are all eternal beings but I don't know whether there is a heaven or a reincarnation, and if it is based on actions and karma or intention or faith. I feel a heaven afterlife could still fit under this paradigm. Perhaps after we have served our time here and proved we can overcome the natural evil of man we will earn a relief and stay with our loving creator until his creation is complete and we can share it. If I could overcome doubt and believe this fully it would bring me great comfort as well.

reply to post by peashooter


Thank you. You are the kind of person who creates order out of chaos and helps everyone grow. I agree that just by having a positive attitude we can make a difference in this world. We are all connected through the earth's electromagnetic field mentally, and probably something deeper. I try to stay positive but it doesn't come to me naturally and relationships are particularly difficult for me. Thank you for your subtle assistance

reply to post by jiggerj


Thanks for your insights. I was under the impression I was in fact looking at how nature operates to infer a meaning from it. I would say that surviving and multiplying are the driving forces behind evolution, but not necessary the meaning of evolution. Evolution is this growth, and now that sentience has been born from it, we have unlocked more pieces of the puzzle. Suddenly we can ask why. Suddenly people can become vegetarians despite their natural designs for being an omnivore. A snake does not ask why, it does not become a vegetarian, or decide to only eat eggs. Personally I agree with everything you have said, and I accept that this seemingly evil path of kill or be killed is not evil but simply evolution creating order from chaos. But I feel this is merely the beginning, and there is much more to know about our origins and destinations.

reply to post by arpgme


Thank you for your insightful perspective, I appreciate your thoroughness.

1. I agree that it in fact takes at least two things for either one to have meaning. Life is full of things to compare itself to, but to compare it in this fashion would make its meaning intrinsic and moot. In your opinion do you believe in an existence after physical death? If so then would the afterlife give life meaning? Also, there are so many components to life that as a whole is it possible that it can create meaning intrinsically and it not be moot? My personal belief is that there is life after death, I often have moments where I look around and kind of freak out, what is all this? What am I, how did we become part of this, how am I experiencing this and why this? Then I snap out of it and start just living and trying to have fun again.

2. I agree with you here that perfection being able to change or unable to change is simply perspective. It is merely my speculation that true perfection is an eternal competition that yields exponentially greater rewards as time goes on, and that we are all eternal and there is no loser despite competition implying it. I would love peace and harmony and live my life on these foundations but I don't know if I could cope with every chess match ending in a stalemate. On the other hand if I was cheesed out of my mind on bliss and harmony I may no longer care to even move. We have not experienced perfection yet and if we have we do not remember, so I cannot truly take one side or the other.

3. When I improve myself I feel like I am improving others too. I don't personally feel like I need to improve because I am inadequate. I improve because there is so much satisfaction from doing something better than I did the day before. I would not call life, no matter how blissful, perfect if there no longer exists creativity. This goes back to the previous agreement that whether or not perfection allows for creativity and friendly competition is based on perspective.

4. I think I already discussed this.

5. Evolution to me is not simply a matter of who is the strongest will attract a mate. Perhaps the naturally strong don't have to strive for growth. I on the other hand must strive because I am naturally flawed and not fit for the automated selection process. Instead of just feeding myself to the sharks because I was not born as the elite, I strive for mental and spiritual growth so that even if a mate does not choose to select me I will still add to the evolution of life, even if it is as lowly as adding another grain of sand to the beach, it is still worth striving for to me.

6. I agree that pain and suffering are relived in time that is no longer and are momentary in reality. Currently I am extremely depressed, but I have no true reason to be, I have a home and food and loving family. Yet lately everything I look at triggers a pain in my heart. Things that usually make me happy bring me to the brink of tears. The only things left that make me happy are holding and loving another beautiful soul, or a friendly matching of wits competitively make me happy and content again, but I have lost one and the other is just a temporary activity. I wish I could overcome this pathetic state, the best I have been able to do so far is to label it as somehow meaningful.

7. I think I already discussed this

8. I agree. Socrates said that "I know that I know nothing" But we do know one thing I believe. I know that somehow I am experiencing something. As you say, I am. This makes me feel that there is a meaning or purpose.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, friend

Evolution relates to meaning in life. While not necessarily for each individual due to the time scales involved, it is relevant to the species as a whole, as well as all life in general.

As the saying goes each of us stand on the shoulders who of those came before us.

Any thoughts?

Existence just is... why do people try slap a badge on it?

The meaning of life will never, ever, ever and forever be found because there is no answer to uncover.

Let us first answer a more simple question, maybe;
What is the meaning of light - what's the point in it, for us to see? For life to flourish? Just to be the fastest thing?
I very much doubt light cares that we have eyes or that life needs it to be or even that it is super duper fast. It just is! There is no point to it.

What is the meaning of sound? same
What is the meaning of this? same
What is the meaning of that? same
What is the meaning of posting on ATS? same
What is the meaning of 'What' if the meaning of what wasn't written in a book for us to see what the meaning of what was? same

This is simply just humans asking questions because we are inquisitive.
If intelligent beings of any shape, size, colour or universal origin were never here, who would ask the questions?
There would still be questions, even if no-one were there to ask them.

Life;
The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.

If no one bothered to give this definition life wouldn't really exist.

The question is only asked because there are people to respond to it...

Which is good because it gives me things to read on t'internet when I'm bored waiting for work to finish.

(Hmmm... What is the meaning of work???)


~ CrzayFool

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Thank you for your perspective, I really do need to get around to reading this book of Enoch, I still have a long road ahead of me.

You said that I basically described this quote:

Gospel of the Nazarenes (Lection 88)
12. For by involution and evolution shall the salvation of all the world be accomplished: by the Descent of Spirit into matter, and the Ascent of matter into Spirit through the ages.

I agree, although the question this verse brings up is why should we suffer in this process? If god is omnipotent, surely he could have created a utopia from the start. Why would he punish himself? This is the question I have attempted to answer through the explanation of entropy vs evolution in order to create an nearly infinitely large base start of creation in order to exponentially amply the asymptote evolutionary curve that reaches out to touch infinity but never reach it, or if it does reach it, it would take a massively long period of time thanks to the slow progress of evolution as it fights against entropy.

To seek fellowship and love is to choose order over chaos. To join the fight against entropy or evil. Since you are quoting scriptures I will assume you believe in a reward and punishment system. This is merely a inquiry of your belief out of curiosity since you appear to be very well studied on these topics. Do you believe in a karma type system where you will be reborn in circumstance relative to you actions? Like if you abuse your fellow man you will be reborn as one who is constantly abused? Or do you believe in a heaven and hell reward system in which if you are of order and peace you get an afterlife of eternal heaven, and if you are wicked and entropic you will get an afterlife of eternal punishment? Or is it some combination, such as if you are good you get to have a vacation from creation until things get better, or if you are evil you are cast back into this universe, which could be considered hell, just not an eternal hell?

I am unable to comment on you explanation of ancient symbolism and metaphors, although I will say I believe that everything is meaningful. Simply by noticing these odd coincidences is meaningful to our experience here, and wisdom may be intangible, but is worth more in my opinion than most tangible things such as strength or wealth. I am a very busy slave but will try to find the time to read through your insights.

Thank you for giving me your opinion and being so courteous

reply to post by HarryTZ


Thanks, in the end, meaning is truly in the eye of the beholder. My solution is not like a solution to a math equation, just a humble opinion taking on an impossible question, it may be completely in vain, or it may be another stepping stone on the path to the true answer, or perhaps both

reply to post by Epsillion70


Hardy Har Har. I really hate that meme. Still I suppose it is just the most simplified version of beliefs in order to mock their inherit uncertainty. 42 vs my assumption, in the end they are both equally uncertain and therefore equally valid..... touche

reply to post by MemeticHarvest

But entropy is the natural order of the universe, entropy exists before order. Entropy is so strong yet we have managed to see order emerge despite it.

Is it though? Entropy i mean.

Is it really the natural order of the Universe(s)?

What if we are wrong about our assumptions regarding how everything started...if we are wrong, then it could very well be that Entropy (or chaos, disorder) is actually 'a' natural order acting upon order itself, or iow, Order is the natural state, and entropy is biting at it's ankles, little by little until we see it's mark on the Universe in the form of disorder...it's even possible that entropy is the driver of creation, or put another way...entropy overcomes order and the result is what we call the big bang, the ultimate expression of entropy..which of course leads to the re-establishment of order out of chaos once again.

We know so very little.

All most interesting perspectives.

However, to assume finite lifeforms exist for some purpose for benefit of those finite lifeforms is invalid.

I propose that Infinite has tasked Itself to have an infinite number and variation of finite lifeforms to exist over infinite time to use them as consciousness proxies. Infinite is using all finite lifeforms as TOOLS to possess finite consciousness. All are tools, all are used regardless of what you want, what you believe, what you don't want or don't believe.

This is very dangerous to believe this unless you are ready for it. The progression of logical philosphy that grows out from this is most dangerous. This is why I believe it is the truth and why it is the most guarded secret of the Universe and any "religion".

reply to post by Agent008



I agree completely, although this would fall more into my personal beliefs. I believe we are all small parts of god's consciousness, working together, suffering together, evolving together. I have often tried, as I bet many of us have to change reality through belief. To manifest reality through thought I believe is a ways off from our current knuckle dragging civilization, one which is barely greater than the animal kingdom. The strong still eat the weak (corporations and world powers enslave us to use us as an energy source to make them stronger) However I feel that we are at a turning point. Either we will destroy ourselves and leave god's work up to another habitable planet, or we shall step up to the next level and embrace the potential power of fellowship and order. Just my beliefs I will not attempt to argue their validity.

Thanks for your reply!

reply to post by mrdeadfolx


This is kind of what I was basing my assumptions on. That a state of perfection that is so complete there is no room for creativity, invention, competition, revelation, just a dull repetition of yesterday and tomorrow combined. So life's meaning is to create an extremely long based asymptote in order to escape repetition at the cost of suffering at the hands of entropy so that we can enjoy the divine ascention up the quasi infinite and exponential climb of the future of evolution, to be able to choose between unity and individuality, enjoying them both and still having fresh non repetitive ideas within our grasp. Perhaps eventually we will once again reach godhood, and enjoy it for some time until it becomes dull and repetitive, in which we will seek an escape, and create a new universe/multiverse to reincarnate ourselves into as individuals again: entropy, order, a never ending cycle.

reply to post by tetra50


Thank you for your confident reply, I am somewhat intimidated to attempt to reply to this logical juggernaut you have penned forth. Let me just start by saying I am not trying to argue or debate your reply but rather expand on my own thoughts and reasoning, because the nature of this discussion is beyond the scope of true understanding and logical definition, however it is these kinds of back and forths that lead us all to understand more even if it is only slightly so.

You call my analogy a non sequitur, I am assuming you mean this in the form of:
All men are humans.
Mary is human.
Therefore, Mary is a man.

I took this from wikipedia as I am not as skilled in logic as some of you gentlemen. This analysis of my analogy is in fact correct but you must admit that there are undefined variables in my equation that we as a civilization have yet to determine.
So therefore it would go a little more like:
All men are humans.
X is human.
Therefore, X is a man.

This is why I chose to label this particular section as one than can be skipped over. It is not truly relevant but rather a way for you to see how I am forming my assumptions, grasping at straws as it may be. Also I am certain you are smart enough to assume what I mean by alien, so I feel it is a little bit overkill to tear this analogy apart so ferociously
As far as a scientist wanting to know what every single piece does on the car to understand it, this is true, but how far is far enough? I don't mean to try to strawman you, but would the scientist want to count the cars atoms? Would they also want to know its subatomic makeup? Or whatever lies beyond, until infinity, to understand only what, 1% more than an skilled mechanic? It would certainly be nice to know everything in the universe, if we could track the movement of every atom and subatomic particle simultaneously would we be able to reverse calculate their coordinates and literally see the past all the way to the start of the universe? Sorry, getting off topic

Also I am not automatically assuming we were created by god despite my poor wording of the op. It is simply a construct designed to accommodate a wide range of beliefs. If you believe in god it should fit in this paradigm. If you believe that god is just a man made idea through the underlying needs of society, or by hunters following herds of animals and eating mushrooms left in their wake having divine hallucinations. They all should fit. I'll explain my personal belief, and it would be nice of you to explain yours as well I believe that we are evolving to enjoy being near godhood for the longest amount of time possible, and once reaching godhood we will enjoy that until it becomes dull and repetitive, after which we will recreate the universe from scratch and restart our process of suffering and evolution. If god is omnipotent, if it is created in the near infinite future, it would suddenly exist simultaneously in the past present and future, in a kind of state that is impossible to understand until we get there again. Ahhhh, baseless assumptions, you gotta love philosophy

So you agree with me that perfection isn't as great as people think? It's so hard to say, but I am guessing you are taking the scientific approach that a world without creativity growth or invention is the opposite of perfection? I love this concept, a kind of contradiction that makes perfect sense.

Indeed, nothing adds up. As scientists delve deeper into reality, the less they seem to understand. A deterministic reality based on a probabilistic subreality? Maybe in a few aeons we will understand a little better. I am using the math language asymptote to describe something very specific that would be more difficult to describe with words. If using math to understand the universe displeases you, perhaps I can attempt to reword it.

An existence such that the distance between initial creation and the eventual achievement of godhood as it approaches completion tends to reflect a quasi infinite state as a relation to the time it takes order to overcome entropy. So we suffer like animals for trillions of years to experience perfection with individuality and creativity for trillions of years more. Or something like that it is very difficult for me to describe this with words which is why I took the easy way out and just said 'asymptote' Maybe you could reword this for me

I think my brain is fried from thinking and rethinking.... I will respond to the rest of your post when I get some more free time, thanks for the reply friend!

reply to post by MemeticHarvest


And thanks for your reply, as well.....and I will do the same, respond when I have more time.
As an aside: two things: I am no gentleman, but a female of the species....whatever species we may be. And that brings me to the other point: what I mean by "alien."

Perhaps in my reply when I have more time I will elucidate more; if you care to look up my profile and some of my own threads, I think you would immediately understand my know questioning of the term "alien," for I do think there is a decent argument to be made we do not really know NOW where we are, nor where we came from.....and if we do not, then "alien," then, takes on a whole new meaning, doesn't it? Perhaps we are not on earth in the Milky Way, and we are not "human" as we have been inculcated to believe "human" means......

If we were in Andromeda, on a whole other planet, or in a computer processed "reality," then then terms "alien" and "human" might mean something altogether different, would they not?

If we really are to "question everything" in an attempt to reach "truth," or is truth "relative" to some "perspective," and where does such perspective even come from......

These are a few of my points. Do not put yourself down as in "a poorly worded op," for it is anything but. You are looking, searching for answers, that, I think, would do us all good to search for. We rely, for instance, a great deal, heavily, upon empirical evidence: what we SEE: and yet, know, that CGI, motion capture technology, just photoshop, and the possibility of holograms calls into question all perception empirically, doesn't it?


and so, where would that leave us then? A totally predicated, manipulated, inculcative environment......where heroism and scientific theorums are reduced, really, to a popularity contest, which would, naturally, be fixed....
Just some thoughts.

Yes, I believe in a creative force, but think even this may be multi layered, (The Truman Show, for instance.)
If this. indeed, is what has happened to whomever "us" is and wherever "us" resides, then any perception of God or creator was long ago hijacked by man........

Thanks again for your op, and reply. Your thinking stimulated mine to a higher level....and I think that is why we all participate here.....
Tetra50

OH, and by the way, I have no idea ultimately who X was or is, Mary, Joseph, whatever.....

I think this may be the appropriate time to mention that gay men for years have called each other "mary," I think, for just such a reason.......but few get this, or the potential meaning of that.

Just like race, religion, creed, etc., sexual orientation and sexual DEFINITION may be just as meant to divide and conquer as any of what I mentioned above....

Wrap your mind around that for a few.....I know it blows mine when I consider it. As an artist, I can appreciate a beautiful woman and draw them regularly, though I am a woman, but seem helpless when it comes to drawing a man with no model. And yet, I appreciate a beautiful man every bit as much.....
Does this mean I live with a man in my head, or was a man in some other life, or nothing of the kind, of what???

Just a suggestion for more interpretive thinking, is all.......

reply to post by MemeticHarvest


Feel free to read my threads and posts. They explain my own view thoroughly. As for why we suffer, it's the point of life.

I have often used this analogy, but it is a generalization that is easy to see. If you smoke, you get cancer or lost years of life. Why? Taking reward leads to suffering. This is the picture of the thief that suffers the debt at the end. If you go to the gym and work out, you get more health. This is because suffering always brings reward. It's a balance between what we taken and give. Giving produces reward and passing if forward allows us to spend reward on others. Spending is always better than taking. Taking leaves a debt and reveals the problem with the two thieves on the cross. One repented, therefore claiming the gift that is given by Christ. The other failed to claim the gift and suffered his own debt.

Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."

Knowing that suffering is the point, we simply need to learn to generate surplus first by suffering forward for what we then spend later. The point of suffering is to ensure that we do not take beyond our surplus. In a perfected form of government, we would never purchase anything. We would share our surplus with others and receive surplus from others. How many shovels are needed in a community of 10 people? Today, because of objectivism, we need 15 shovels for ever 10 people. In a world where the community (not communism) was based on altruism, there would be shared resources and nothing would ever be wasted. The incentive would be making the world better for everyone and not simply for the individual.

Take my example of suffering above. When you work a job, you get a paycheck. That paycheck is then given for the family. From that surplus, more surplus is produced. When surplus is used for selfish gratification, the surplus is wasted and everyone suffers. Taking reward leads to suffering for everyone, just like suffering first produces surplus for everyone. Imagine a world where our kids are taught altruism instead of objectivism.

This is not socialism or communism. This is a change to our DNA that allows us to desire giving rather than taking. I believe that this upgrade comes in the next 1000 years. We have seen 3 ages so far. The end of each age always brings the work of that age.

Adam to Abraham = Age of Father (2000 years). What was the work of the Father? The Nation.

Issac to Jesus = Age of the Son (2000 years). What was the work of the Son? When did that work take place? During the following 2000 years.

Jesus to Today = Age of the Holy Spirit (2000 years). What will the Holy Spirit accomplish with the Son? 1000 years of peace and a Government opposite the one we have now. It will be based on giving rather than taking, which is the cornerstone of the foundation.

Last Day of the Lord (1000)

Isiah 9

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

Enoch is all about this story of restoration and judgment for the fallen beings that corrupted the Earth. Like God providing a scapegoat for Issac, the same will hold true for the body (Church) of Christ in the last day. The scapegoat is Satan and his angels.

Why do we suffer at their hands? To learn to overcome. You must be born again and what you understand comes from learning and forgetting. You forget (wool over your eyes). You learn (Food / Knowledge) and you Understand by doing.

Listen to James 1

AUDIO

Pay attention to the end. Hearing and doing are shown as the way to understanding. At the head of the chapter, suffering is outlined as the point.

reply to post by tetra50


Ok, in response to your second post in your sequence.

My definition of fractals may be flawed it is a difficult concept for me to wrap my head around. What I gather from it is that how the small things emulate the big things, like the neurons and setup of the brain are surprisingly similar to what scientists predict the universe to look like. So therefore if we fractals of the universe/god/existence, and that our behavior is a fractal representation of its will, and therefore we can glean insights into the meaning of this universe/god/existence from our own behavior and natural tendencies along with the natural forces of the universe.

In regards to my thoughts on entropy and evil. This is my attempt to explain evil. If a loving god who is omnipotent created us why would he mix evil into his creation? To teach us lessons? He could simply matrix everything into our brains at birth so we would realize the potential power of good over evil. My assumption that evil is meant to pull on the evolutionary asymptote. I make a comparison between entropy and evil because they are both forces that create chaos out of order, and since entropy is a force of nature like the weather, I am assuming evil is a force of a nature too. A natural part of survival that in the beginning probably was a beneficial driving force behind evolution. Now man has reached the point where this dog eat dog mentality is destroying us, we have often heard we are on the cusp of a new future, the age of aquarius as some say. More and more people are theorizing functional utopias. So it now seems to me thanks to your insights that they go hand in hand, entropy drives the primal evolution of order by attempting to force chaos upon everything, allowing only the most stable energy filled systems to achieve order, but now we have achieved a degree of stable order we must shift our style of evolution. A new mind state that will allow us to live without evil or entropy and excellerate our evolution exponentially faster than the initial entropy driven beginning. we are reaching the curve of the asymptote that skyrockets toward infinity. Why I am saying this has something to do with god is the initial question of why does evil exist and why do we suffer under the assumption that we were created by a loving god, while still leaving room for people to not have to believe in god in order for this paradigm to be acceptable.

My explanation is not simply the we are all going to be one with god theory, but rather a hybrid of this theory. Perhaps as we near the top of the evolutionary frame we will be so advanced that we can choose to be individuals who can compete, tolerate, inspire, and be creative and ourselves, or we can choose to enter a quasi god type system where we can experience the bliss of oneness for as long as we choose, once we become bored of it we can revert back to individualism.

In my opinion randomness is an illusion as well. Just like a random number generator on a computer is just an algorithm. Data is never lost in this universe. Even a black hole emits radiation as it consumes data and seems to destroy it, it still leaves behind data that can be used to see what data it has consumed. If we could track every atom and subatomic particle in the universe simultaneously I believe we could reverse calculate the trajectories of them as a whole and literally see the entire past of our universe all the way to its beginning in exact perfect detail as no data is ever truly lost.

Talking about love, this is very off topic but I will reply since you have asked even though I don't want to.....
I don't want to clog up this thread with my grief and depression so I'll try to sum it up quick. I have aspergers and I am naturally a logical, planning, routine person with a limited range of interests. The woman I have loved most went against this nature completely, but I truly loved her from the core of my self and no amount of logical conclusions would quell my heart's love for her. Unfortunately because of my condition I am unable to explain my feelings correctly the way most people do, long story short I drove her away because of my social ineptitude.
So in summary I agree. Faith and tolerance and the feeling in your core.

Thanks for your replies fair lady sorry for thinking you were a guy lol

reply to post by MemeticHarvest


Beautiful post. Have you ever studied the Ra Material or Law of One? Based on your comprehension, I would recommend it. I also have aspergers, and your ideas are very similar to mine. No human truly grasps the nature of godliness, so they cannot grasp the balance of order and chaos and how each are essential. They are a cycle, just like everything else.

reply to post by MemeticHarvest


I don't think I could express to you, Memtic Harvest, with simple words, the import of your thinking, analysis and writing.

Social ineptitude? And forgive me for starting at your ending, and perhaps what seems the least of what we are discussing, but may, just in fact, be, the most...actually.....in that microcosm of macrocosm of entropy, evolution, neural networks, algorithms, good vs. evil, collective consciousness "god likeness" and individualism and order vs. chaos and what that may or may not mean to all of us.....the most important part of this particular microcosm we are heretofore experiencing at this very moment......love. And again. Social ineptitude?

If you have such a thing, it is because you are thinking much more about vital issues of life than most are.....
I am fifty. Believe me when I say this to you: It is meant to build your confidence, for you have so very, very much to offer mankind, just by what I have seen of this thread and read of your thinking......

Without people like you who are thinking and considering in this fashion, (pardon the all caps), BUT THERE MAY ONE DAY BE NOTHING LEFT TO CONSIDER NOR SAVE.

So Never, ever, ever, sell yourself short like that. It just may be in these times that what order out of chaos may have meant is the creation of an ever sickening condition of "humankind," perhaps to teach us a lesson about striving to be what we are not: God or a creator beyond a certain capacity, for we can create, a great deal. But at what cost, and using what and out of what? And perhaps this is the lesson a loving God meant to teach us.....

But I am fully convinced from my own experience and watchfulness that those who think and ponder and search seriously as you do, whether you "fit" in the society of the times, or are popular in a typical sense, are those who will save and give a reason for us to evolve, whomever is in control of that.


Having written all that, I have often found in my life that the most complex of things, can be reduced to the simplest analogies (even though analogies and symbols can be dangerous because things can be made to appear a certain way to compare unlike things as though they are like, and in doing so, create complete lies in doing so).......think about a curve....as opposed to a straight line. There was a time when mathematical and engineering, achitectural and otherwise, could not calculate nor support a "curve." And in terms of what we are living out, I find this to be a good way to look at what we are speaking of.....

Mankind , I think, has discovered enough about physics, and not applied or molecular, but rather quantum possibilities, to question and answer and create, supporting a curve he could not see beyond, and we have almost, therefore, qualified and quantified ourselves out of this existence, by suggesting our mechanic repetitive creation, trying to be God, copying that neural network we have "nailed" down, to move on to "transhumanism" and a full suggestion we can create ourselves, be our own Gods, and make ourselves better, but the trick with this is, from my way of thinking and seeing, is CONTROL.

Break that word down, simply, and it starts with a con......

For we were meant to accept certain things, I believe, and wait patiently and learn FAITH through this process......and these times have gone far beyond that. It is kind of akin to selling one's soul, perhaps, another way of looking at it.

As far as randomness,chaos vs. order.......I believe if you had a processor capable of the "full" set of equational probabilities, which we do not yet have nor perhaps were ever intended to (this comes back to "faith"), there would, in fact, be no randomness nor chaos whatsoever. But certain things we were not intended not to search for before it was a time for the seeking.....

And this, my friend, is the essence, I think, in all our ponderings and mathematical, p hilosophical and other ponderings and searchings, that always brings us back to faith.....
And when I say, FAITH, I do not mean in a certain religious text, any organized religion or doctrine, what you eat or wear or whatever your particular definition of "sin" is......but true FAITH....that we perhaps know nothing, and will wait patiently, while still contemplating and taking seriously, living, being grateful and sympathetic to the human condition as it presents itself to us where we see it daily: those who suffer more than we do, and what we do to hold ourselves together while we suffer, and wait, patiently,as well, and how we treat our fellow brethren while we are doing so.

I think this adds up to a better mathematical conclusion than any other language can represent, be it letters or numbers.

Let me say, please, I have so enjoyed your thread, and appreciated very much how you have prompted me to re-think my own life, my own