Quantum sound theory or the unified field of everything...

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by SQUEALER

 

Um, no. Lightning isn't created by "winds clapping together creating light".

And the sound part of sonoluminescence isn't what makes the light either. Sound makes bubbles, when the bubble collapses, the gas inside is compressed, and heats to luminescence.

I don't see Genesis as a physics text. YMMV

The vocal cords don't produce sound either. It's the air rushing through the vocal cords that create the sound.

BUT...the mind gives the instruction to the muscles, which gives instruction to the vocal cords, which modulate the air flow. So, it all depends on where you start.

Ultimately, the will of God created the light, but there's a sequence to the process, one thing leading to another.

And yes, sound creates the conditions for the light to be created, the sound isn't transformed into light magically.

reply to post by SQUEALER


It's not transformed into light at all. Might as well say it was the electricity that powered the sound transducers.

eta: God didn't create air in time to actually SAY 'let there be light', so he couldn't have spoken it as sound. Not that he did anyway.

reply to post by Bedlam

I think you are totally missing the point. You seem as determined that this cannot exist as those who thought the Earth was flat. No imagination to accompany book learning (or what the schools call learning now). Can't look beyond the current paradigm for any reason at all. Open your mind a bit...

reply to post by madmac5150


As soon as you quoted scripture you lost all credibility.

After that you basically stated what physicists and scientists have said for the last 100 years?

Where is this sound theory of yours? Unless, of course you expected all of us to be uneducated conspiracy quacks?

Not everyone here will swallow the bitter pill, nor are all of us christian.

Nice try.

reply to post by madmac5150


Hey, OP, you know, I just had an astounding personal experience after reading your thread. I went out for a walk in a local wood (pretty dig one, so I was able to find a place away from the people and roads etc, so that no alien noise would penetrate the environment. And after setting down the thought stream in my head, I started grasping i kind of "hum" that you talk about. A hum of a certain pitch - kinda high one. And then I realized that it wasd what Tuin-the-hunter of a Dolores Cannon's book "The Legend of Starcrash" was talking about. He was an indigenous hunter in a small native population somwhere in North West Territories in Canada (I guess I regard that place much in the same way as you guys regard Siberia
Sooo... That guy was talking about everything around him singing its song. And if you tune in with it and sing the same song - then... well that's good for you - your are in balance, which is the most important.

reply to post by madmac5150


you lost me at "Genesis"

Originally posted by madmac5150
reply to post by Bedlam

 

I think you are totally missing the point. You seem as determined that this cannot exist as those who thought the Earth was flat. No imagination to accompany book learning (or what the schools call learning now). Can't look beyond the current paradigm for any reason at all. Open your mind a bit...

My mind is open, it's just not so open my brains have fallen out.

If you think some beardy guy can speak and the sound will carry across the universe, well, that's VERY imaginative, I suppose, it's just not consonant with reality.

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by SQUEALER

 

It's not transformed into light at all. Might as well say it was the electricity that powered the sound transducers.

The "energy" of the sound, "is" transformed into the "energy" of light. It's called "The Conservation of Energy".

Remember too, that just because the vibration of matter might be beyond our hearing, that doesn't mean there's no sound. Dogs hear sounds we can't hear. Sound can also travel through other mediums other than "air". It can travel through water, metal, wood, etc..It only needs "matter" present to be vibrated. As long as the vacuum of space has some matter in it, some frequencies of sound will travel through even the vacuum. The frequencies may be outside of our audible range, but it's still sound.

Originally posted by SQUEALER

Originally posted by Bedlam
reply to post by SQUEALER

 

It's not transformed into light at all. Might as well say it was the electricity that powered the sound transducers.

The "energy" of the sound, "is" transformed into the "energy" of light. It's called "The Conservation of Energy".

Albeit very indirectly, this is called "the sound didn't produce the light", or as I stated above "might as well say it was the electricity that powered the transducers". Sorry, you really can't say "let there be light" and the energy of your voice suddenly produce illumination.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Albeit very indirectly, this is called "the sound didn't produce the light", or as I stated above "might as well say it was the electricity that powered the transducers". Sorry, you really can't say "let there be light" and the energy of your voice suddenly produce illumination.

Well, under your argument, nothing produces anything. Things just happen.

The sound happened, and the light happened, and it's just that the sound happened before the light.

That was the Philosopher David Hume's argument. He attacked the scientists view of cause and effect, and claimed all we are entitled to say is that events are consistently found to be occurring in a set sequence, one after the other, but we couldn't pick any one preceeding event and claim it was the cause of a succeeding event.

In Hume's world. Things Happen. But there are no causes.

Originally posted by SQUEALER

Originally posted by Bedlam

Albeit very indirectly, this is called "the sound didn't produce the light", or as I stated above "might as well say it was the electricity that powered the transducers". Sorry, you really can't say "let there be light" and the energy of your voice suddenly produce illumination.

Well, under your argument, nothing produces anything. Things just happen.

The sound happened, and the light happened, and it's just that the sound happened before the light.

That was the Philosopher David Hume's argument. He attacked the scientists view of cause and effect, and claimed all we are entitled to say is that events are consistently found to be occurring in a set sequence, one after the other, but we couldn't pick any one preceeding event and claim it was the cause of a succeeding event.

In Hume's world. Things Happen. But there are no causes.

edit on 25-5-2013 by SQUEALER because: (no reason given)

Not at all. You want to make some point that a deity actually spoke some words, and they became/produced light. As exemplars, you state the totally bogus 'winds clapping together produce light we say is lightning' and the non sequitur statement about sonoluminescence.

The first statement was incorrect. In the case of sonoluminescence, there is a sequence of causes, but the sound and light are separated by a set of intermediaries like "cavitation" "bubble formation", "bubble collapse", "compressive heating" at the end of which you get "light". The sound doesn't become the light, and is no more significant than "the generator at the power station rotated, inducing a current", or "the device has an oscillator in, which was amplified into a signal that could drive the piezo transducers in the fluid bath".

Neither of which really seem to be a telling argument for some supposed deity creating all photons by the sound of his/her/its voice.

eta: although I do agree in some sense, that things happen without plan or intent

.reply to post by madmac5150


OP,
Ignore those who cannot consider what your are trying to parse out without such bias they reject it before thy even know what it is. Im talking to the "you lost all credibility with genesis" crowd. If you dont have anything to add to the conversation then try not to look so foolish and unintellectual in the process; then maybe you would have some of the credibility you seem so able to identify a lack of in others.

As aristotle said; "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

That said heres a little moar lost credibility; John 1:1 "In the beggining was the Word, and the Word was with God."

Check out Aryeh Kaplans commentary on the Sefer Yetzeriah.

Keep your thought process going, your on the right track. Nevermind those that will become uncomfortable at the fusion of science and what used to be known as religion. The teachings were never the problem, just the system of control born out of fear based on these most powerful insights.

Fair disclosure: Im not a 'christian', but i study all theologies and science.

Holy hell the lack of understanding people seem to have about fundamental concepts of Physics is astounding.

The medium of sound is transferred through changes in pressure of the air around you being converted by the oscillations of the eardrum membrane, but these oscillations can also be measured by equipment and do NOT extend past the point of our atmosphere because no objects (or medium) exist to continue the transfer.

Light consists of electromagnetic waves (which can travel through seemingly empty space) and air pressure changes DO NOT result in an ENERGY transfer from sound to light. Not to mention the particles that make up the AIR around you are significantly larger than the massless photons that make up light and has virtually NO effect on the electromagnetic waves.

The idea that particles of our atmosphere have somehow created massless photons of light through "vibrational frequencies" has no factual basis whatsoever behind it. The most that could ever happen is a slight refraction of light due to the changes of density in the air around you (I.E. sound)

It's cool to throw around the words energy, frequency, vibration, ect, but please use them in the correct context and not in some separate set of Physical laws you deem to be accurate.

My first thoughts when catching up on the tail end of this thread this morning were not happy ones... I was also a bit on the grumpy side when I woke up today... but that's ok. We are human after all.

What bugged me were, in my mind, a few obtuse posts that were meant to discredit everything that had been discussed.

As soon as you quoted scripture you lost all credibility. After that you basically stated what physicists and scientists have said for the last 100 years? Where is this sound theory of yours? Unless, of course you expected all of us to be uneducated conspiracy quacks? Not everyone here will swallow the bitter pill, nor are all of us christian. Nice try.

and...

you lost me at "Genesis"

Now, "Bedlam" has echoed these same sentiments, however the willingness for debate of ideas is how ideas progress. Debate is also what ATS is built upon. Debate stimulates the intellect.

I am quite sure that "the sloth" and "Hijinx" meant no disrespect. The reason these "got my goat", so to speak, is that I know exactly where they are coming from.

I went to parochial schools until I was a teen. When I entered the public school system, it was like a breath of fresh air. No more would I have to relate every book report, essay question, etc to scripture. No more writing out "The Apostles Creed" 10 times on the blackboard for whatever indiscretion I had committed that day. No more going to mass instead of homeroom.

Beyond that, most of my experience in the Catholic schools involved a nun in my ear constantly telling me why I was a bad person, why I was going to hell. Wonderful for the pre-teen psyche...

For the longest time, any article, book, anything at all, as soon as scripture was mentioned my brain switched off. If I could send my OP back 20 years to myself, my self from 20 years ago would have immediately scoffed and tossed it in the trash. (Hey mods... anyway to send a post back to 1993? I'll trade all of my points )

During my 20 years of service in the USAF, I was essentially an atheist. Granted, I tried to live what some may call a "Christian" life, but the spiritual component was absent.

It wasn't until a few years ago that I could begin to see that there is far more to this existence than what our "elevated" scientists have been able to come up with. With all of our breakthroughs and advancements, science hasn't even come close to explaining "life". Science cannot create life. At least it hasn't yet. The closest we may come is A.I., but the "A" means artificial.

When is science going to create life in a petri dish? When will they create life from the amino acid building blocks in a flask, the way they describe life beginning here?

My quest for knowledge at that point didn't start with the Bible at all. It started with what was left out. I purchased a book called "The Other Bible"; a collection of texts left out of the canonized tome. What I found was a beautiful collection of stories. I also felt shafted. Why were these texts left out? What did the early church gain by their omission? What has been hidden? Is this the great "con of man"?

From there I have expanded my reading to the texts of all of the great faiths, especially the esoteric ones. Gnosis, Kabbalah, Sufi, Vedic, Bhuddist, Hermetic etc. and I believe the organized religions, especially the Catholic Church, need to drop and kiss our collective arses and apologize for centuries of intellectual enslavement. My Catholic friends would be so proud of me.

How much science and alchemy was driven underground by the church? How many centuries of potential human advancement were quashed in the name of the Catholic church and control of the hearts and minds? The accumulation of papal wealth?

How far ahead could we be if the church had inspired scientific discovery instead of criminalizing it?

I am no "bible thumper". I don't go door to door trying to spread my faith or beliefs. I had to force myself to write my OP because I believe my path, all of our paths for that matter, are personal. I shared what I did because I see the beauty and elegance of the idea. (Which, btw, is not an original idea as I had suspected... Cymatic Theology is the area of study)

I wonder, had I quoted religious texts other than the bible if readers would have been more open to the idea?

Great post, I had already crossed this threshold of thinking years ago when I discovered and studied cymatics. I see that a lot of people are getting confused about "sound" being the catalyst for creation, it may help to think of it more as vibrations, of energy. "In the beginning was the word..." (Word denoting sound, sound, a type of vibration, vibration, a type of energy.)

The real fun of this theory reveals itself when you juxtapose it onto worldly religions like hinduism which believe that God's breath and exhale precedes creation and destruction through massive stretches of time called yugas. Fascinating stuff to ponder, could it be true? How did they come up with such a notion so long ago?

In the end, after a lot of research and contemplation, I came to the profound realization that we are God, in an endless game of discovering God through all possible forms in matter and creation, forever and ever. The profundity of fully answering this exploration of self is a process that takes up eternity, creation is enriched by the answers it discovers, then continues to expand and grow bigger.

So if you're worried about your existence, dont be, you've been here before and the journey never ends, at least IMHO .

reply to post by madmac5150


I think you are definitely on to something there, a very well rounded viewpoint in fact. Fascinating that scientific fields and spiritual principles correlate metaphorically yet are so separatist to one another. en.wikipedia.org...

Hindus believe that as creation began, the divine, all-encompassing consciousness took the form of the first and original vibration manifesting as sound "OM".[1] Before creation began it was "Shunyākāsha", the emptiness or the void. Shunyākāsha, meaning literally "no sky", is more than nothingness, because everything then existed in a latent state of potentiality. The vibration of "OM" symbolizes the manifestation of God in form ("sāguna brahman"). "OM" is the reflection of the absolute reality, it is said to be "Adi Anadi", without beginning or the end and embracing all that exists.[

I personally think there are way more people out there that have similar views with different definitions to the same overall thing than whats given credit for. Suppose the ego plays a role in the outcome of differing perspectives and how they are presented individually as the only truth.

Good things

reply to post by madmac5150


I think Bedlam and Evolv have provided the best feedback in this thread to be honest.

The problem with your theory (even though it's a theory I've heard several times over and over from people in person and from youtube) is that you are attempting to base it on scientific principles and then lace it over with a dose of spiritual knowledge to fit it all together.

Fairplay - nothing wrong with that.

But, when your scientific principles aren't completely sound (no pun intended lol) you really have to take a step back, top up the knowledge and then take a step forward again. Seriously, Bedlam isn't just refuting your idea because it's against the 'paradigm' of today, but because you are using words like densities, frequencies, vibrations and sound without quite fully understanding how they relate together. It's ok to make assumptions about exotic functions of matter/energy that we don't yet understand but these concepts HAVE to match with the already existing and proven information we have.

Now, back to the theory. I get what you are trying to teeth at here, but I think you have caught yourself up too much on the sound aspect of it. There's no two ways about it, sound as we know it and sound as you are trying to explain it both rely on oscillations of pressure through a medium. If sound was used to create our universe then there had to be a canvas of 'space' already there with 'matter' already manifested for the sound to work it's magic.

Sound CANNOT create matter...because the very principle of sound depends on matter lol. There's no saying 'ah open your eyes' e.t.c, think about it yourself for a second. Yes, sound can change the internal structure of matter, because it is a mechanical wave interacting with the matter, but this is no different to highlighting parts of an object in complete darkness with light.

Even if the sound was propagating in some super-universe that contains ours, which could somehow be stretched to fit your theory with increasingly optimistic assumptions and the idea that sound can somehow affect matter that isn't in interaction with it, you would still have the issue of how did the matter arise there for the sound to be produced from? This chain of thought will just take you to a infinite loop of cause/effect.

Perhaps you should take your line of thought to LIGHT instead. An interesting line of thought may be to look at light as the processing speed or capability of the universe. Before light there was no information transfer between matter (as far as I'm aware, since there would be no matter lol), since it is on the basis of photon exchange that properties of matter are relayed. Gravity waves apparently propagate at the speed of light, the frequency of light (i.e how many pulses of EM radiation per second) determines fundamentals such as what we see (colour e.t.c), as well as the type of 'light' it is (micro/UV/infra/X-ray/Gamma e.t.c). It is the basis of energy transfer for life et.c. I don't really have to explain how important light or Electromagnetism is to be honest.. But it ALL stems from the simple photon and the variables attached to it.

Think of the analogy of a games console. You have a game, informationally encoded onto a CD. You want to play the game. The game exists purely as one type of information (usually based on the depth of the circular lines, similar to how Vinyl's work for music except light can do this much quicker and transfer a variety of information). How do you bring that game to life? In the case of the games console, a LASER (fundamentally light) reads the CD by virtue of interaction with the grooves and relays this information back to the console which decodes it as what the developer wanted you to see.

Apply this analogy to the universe. Sound is merely a product of the game in this sense. But LIGHT was fundamental to the game happening in the first place. This is why I don't understand why you've placed so much of the importance on sound, even quoting the line 'God said: LET THERE BE LIGHT' and taking it literally rather than seeing the more profound meaning that in the beginning of OUR PHYSICAL DOMAIN, there was LIGHT first and foremost.

Once again...WITHOUT Light, or the electromagnetic interactions, there would be NO MATTER. Why? There would be no such thing as the Coulomb force which binds the sub-atomic and hence atomic and macroscopic world as we know it.

Now, LIGHT IS NOT SOUND, under any stretch of the imagination or attempt at exotic assumption. Yet I've just logically (at least to me it is logically sound) proved to you that light is fundamentally and infinitely more important to our very existence and functioning of the universe than sound. So, perhaps this is a hint that the sound thing is being played upon too much here?

reply to post by madmac5150


Also, don't get me wrong, I do believe sound is a very important thing (besides the obvious reasons). Like you said, it has the ability to change our mood, feeling, course of action and so forth. I also do believe some words have properties inherent of themselves based on their frequencies (i.e some words repeated or hummed may achieve a physical effect). Furthermore, sound perhaps has the potential to overturn gravity - but that's another discussion altogether and depends on certain assumptions about gravity.

But despite all of that sound is still, in my honest opinion, nothing more than a brilliant product of this universe and it's laws. Maybe you should check out String Theory. As far as I'm aware it attempts to explain the manifestation of physical existence through the vibrating action of 'super-strings' existing outside our possible world of interaction. This may as well be what you are saying if I'm understanding your assumptions about sound in higher 'planes'/dark matter sound or what not.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Albeit very indirectly, this is called "the sound didn't produce the light", or as I stated above "might as well say it was the electricity that powered the transducers". Sorry, you really can't say "let there be light" and the energy of your voice suddenly produce illumination.

But, you can.

Sound is the vibration of matter. There must be matter present, for there to be sound.

Light is the vibration of the ether, or electric and magnetic fields that sit in the ether.

When you say "let there be light", you impart energy into matter, causing it to vibrate in "longitudinal" waves, or "pressure waves".

That "sound energy" then excites the electrons in the atoms to jump up into higher energy states. These electrons then fall back down into their ground states and emit photons, which are "transverse" waves.Those photons enter our eye and we see the light.

The energy in those photons comes from the energy that was in the sound.

This is scientific reality.

Energy is conserved. It is neither created nor destroyed. So the sound energy "MUST" transform into light energy. There is no other way. And so the Bible must be right.

My contention is that science may have it completely wrong, so backing an argument with science sort of becomes circular. What if our scientific methodologies are incorrect? Let me explain...

We are inside a giant black hole

Keep in mind that my argument is theoretical...

IF we are inside a black hole, could the event horizon of such act as a time dilation bubble in which our observable universe resides? What if our Solar System were the boundary of the time dilation field? In a configuration such as that, everything outside of the field would look far different to us, as time itself is so greatly skewed. The universe itself could be vastly smaller than we are able to observe. Is galaxy X really millions of light years away, or is it far closer? Is galaxy X millions of light years across, or does it only appear to because of the time dilation? In which case, EVERY observation made of ANYTHING outside of the bubble would be WRONG without us being made any wiser. Why?

Science is observation. What if what we think we see is ALL an illusion? An observation of an illusion is an incorrect observation. In said universe, the theoretical inhabitants would have exactly ZERO understanding until they understood that what they are observing was an illusion. Only then would they really understand the true nature of everything...