Socialism is the best ideology

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

Again, I do not disagree. However, as I said, you are not describing socialism, merely the application of socialist tactics for the purposes of appeasement.

Then where is there truly a socialist Utopia like the one you are describing? Since most "socialist" countries have some element of Capitalism providing Capital to run on, and some element of freedom left....as I provided evidence that even so-called Socialist countries which appear to be stable may have even more economic freedoms considering the comparison to regulations of business in the US.
the problem with Fabian Socialism is because everything is so "mixed", it is really hard to tell whether it's socialism making things decent or whether it's Capitalism.

When the entirety of the means of production is completely centralized and nationalized...isn't that....communism? Are you going to try to tell me that that would have worked a lot better in the Soviet Union if it just wasn't the mean old Stalin running things? But then Brezhnev didn't do such a hot job either, or wait, Andropov...no that didn't work either, oh wait Gorbachev....oh chute he's pushing Climate Change bs and Agenda 21 which is global communism.

Or maybe you prefer Bill Gates' style of benevolent dictatorship, where he invests his money from private enterprise into public/private partnerships wherein he buys control of the PTA and the National Governor's Association for complete domination and control at the federal level of govt indoctrination of the children ?
5 billion dollars worth.

Socialism gets to pretend it's productive because it is stealing from the productivity of Capitalist venture.

In the good ole U.S.A. we started socialism when we signed N.A.F.T.A. Any one with half a brain could figure that out. The only thing is people don't seem to realize this. N.A.F.T.A. wasn't designed to bring the Mexican economy up to the level of say the U.S.A or even Canada. N.A.F.T.A. was designed to bring our economy down to the Mexican level. As you can see we are well on our way. The problem with socialism is that most people don't want to work. Ok I said it ( American's are lazy). Especially the younger generation. So therein lies the problem. People willing to work their butts off shouldn't have to pay for the existence of lazy people unwilling to work. That is what is happening in America as we speak. Remember when it was said that the top 10% of wage earners in America pay 90% of the tax. Also the bottom 47% of wage earners pay zero tax. According to socialism they deserve the same as I do. For what? Sitting on their duffs and doing nothing?The part that pisses me off is that the bottom 47% have better health care than I do. Something that Obamacare will never fix. So as you can see we are well on our way to socialism and it doesn't look good.

reply to post by fadedface


Socialism is the best ideology............Amoung Sheeple that is , but for Freedom Loving Peoples on the other hand, it is just Plain Tyranny ......

I cant believe this thread is still going. What happened to deny ignorance? That being said and not to kick a dead horse but here's a tidbit from a great article on socialism:

"It was therefore always predictable that by requiring the abolition of private property and the family, and monopolistic State ownership of agriculture and industry, the socialist pursuit of equality would necessarily produce the evil fruit of totalitarianism. One-party rule, the secret police, the imprisonment and torture of dissidents, concentration camps, mass executions, the political indoctrination of the young, the persecution of religious minorities—all these horrors have been the inevitable result of that concentration and monopolization of power that invariably corrupts the ruling elites and bureaucracies of all full-blown socialist societies. As an eminent Russian-born political scientist, the late Tibor Szamuely, wrote a generation ago in a pamphlet that should be read by the citizens of every civilized democracy: “How could it be otherwise? . . . How can there be any freedom when one’s livelihood from cradle to grave depends totally upon the State, which can with one hand give and with the other take away?” (Socialism and Liberty, 1977).

And here is a link to the full article:

www.fee.org...

Now can we please stop discussing this nonsense. Socialism doesnt work, let's use our brains and develop a new system instead of rehashing old, failed ones.

Originally posted by votan

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by fadedface
Capitalism condemns those who do not have the competitive edge to survive in the social darwinistic order it imposes on society.

Socialism condemns the productive to have to carry the unproductive on their backs.
Socialism imposes slavery on the productive and weakens the human herd.
It goes against evolutionary history and evolutionary psychology.
It's anti-human.

Don't capitalists take advantage of cheap labor akin to slavery in other countries?? isn't that part of the reason why companies are leaving the usa?? because people want fair wages to be able to live comfortably? aren't people being asked to adjust to cheaper wages to cmopete with other countries with slave like wages??? so which one imposes slavery like conditions again??

Socialism does not condemn the productive... it just keeps some people from setting up the rules so they are on top and the rest remain on the bottom.

One of the Smarter comments through out this entire thing...again, I'm not pro socialist as I Know the flaws, but I'm adamently opposed to Capitalism and more against corporate fascism/fuedalism,

We need to move beyond the dichotomies and look for alternative systems/create them,

But as you can see from the tunnel thinking most have, I doubt it will happen in This lifetime. Sad to say, it will probably require worldwide oppression and near annihilation for most to "get it"

How we treat others always comes back to us, horizontally and vertically, but it's easier for humans to cleave to hard hearts. Sad...



Both capitalism and socialism have the positive and negative points. The common factor that makes it fail is people... people in both systems ask what's in it for me and those people usually reach for power then corrupt the system in their favor.

evolution

If we were animals there shouldn't be laws preventing us from killing each other in our everyday lives.

I completely agree that Socialism is the most viable system that could be employed in any nation around the globe. But, and this is a big but, it must actually be done in the manner the doctrines of Marx and Engels described. People call nations like China, Vietnam, etc. all types of things, both Communist and Socialist, when in truth there does not exist a true Communist or Socialist nation on the face of the earth. I have read the doctrines of these systems, and what is laid out there is not what is being carried out in any country in the world.

I just shake my head when I look back to previous decades, especially during the Cold War, when the US government was supposedly anti-Communist, and was actually going after US citizens who allied with the Communist party. Not only was that a blatant violation of the rights of these citizens, but these citizens probably had a better grasp of what these other parties stand for than the government has ever had, then or now.

I will explain the basics of what Communism and Socialism truly are...Socialism is basically a means to Communism. Communism is a state that is reached, and when it is reached, equality prevails. If there is a dictator or tyrannical government running a country, then that country is not Communist. So these systems have never been correctly implemented at any time in the past or present. Hopefully they will be in the future. Communism is greater than Capitalism for one simple reason...There are no giant corporations controlling the means of production, and thus basically controlling the entire monetary system like they do now in most "civilized" countries.

In a Communist nation, all citizens own the means of production. The economy could be set up in two different ways. Either a governing body determines what to produce and when to produce it, or supply and demand determines these things. I think a command economy may be viable, but the whole point of Communism is to limit the government. The government essentially should be done away with, but mob justice is not always the best idea. The system would take some getting used to, but it would be worth it. There would not be the great inequality we see in the US today, where the top 1% control something like HALF of the money in this country. Just think about that for a moment. It is staggering.

Capitalism truly is evil. And the government has lied to the people to perpetuate the Capitalistic myth by convincing them that anyone can become wealthy if only they work hard. What a joke. I'm sure everyone has known people who have busted their butts at different types of jobs, people who have worked multiple, difficult jobs, and who is barely surviving. There are people who have worked harder in a year than some of the top 1% have worked in their entire lives, yet the myth continues that hard work will pay off in a Capitalist society. It is a lie that needs to stop.

The truth is that those who are rich, the majority at least, have become that way NOT by working hard, but by taking advantage of the lower classes of people. I really should not have to detail the heinous actions that corporations have been proven to engage in to make money. If you can think it, I can assure you that they have probably done it at one time or another. This extends all the way to hiring people to murder workers on strike, as seen with the Coca-Cola company.

Every single citizen should watch Michael Moore's documentary on Capitalism. That is one of the greatest documentaries ever produced about politics and the economy. Most people would not think that airline pilots, for instance, flying for major corporate airlines, make on average about 20,000 dollars per year, many of whom have to work second jobs just to pay the bills. That is an example of corporate greed. Corporations are all about profit, not conscience, and when they are allowed to run the economy, they run the country. Capitalism has failed dismally.

Originally posted by fadedface
reply to post by oonkala

 

"Once private property is abolished, individuals are no longer deprived of access to means of production enabling them to freely associate (without social constraint) to produce and reproduce their own conditions of existence and fulfill their individual and creative needs and desires."

"The free association represents a coordinating entity for economic activity that is concerned with administrative decision-making and the flow of goods and services to satisfy demand"

Before you start denigrating communism with your greedy capitalistic fervour you should actually read up on some Communist theory.

No more capitalist pigs contributing to this thread please I've got nothing to say to your sort.

"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them in parliament."

Vladimir Lenin

edit on 17-5-2013 by fadedface because: (no reason given)

I've been down this road so many times that I don't have the energy to give your thread the debate it deserves. Props to you for the OP and much of what you mention would be great in a perfect world. Unfortunately the social paradise you envision will never work because of two simple words: Human Nature

I'm hardly a "capitalist pig"... I spent Labor Day weekend 1972 with a little over 300,000 of my closest friends at Bull Island (originally intended to be called the Erie Canal Soda Pop Festival). Last minute legal problems threw a monkey wrench into the plans of the producers and it had to take place on an island on the Indiana side of the Wabash, but technically in Illinois. That made Bull Island a legal no-man's land. There were three county sheriffs there who could only observe and help where possible.

To some degree, it all worked out. Most of the acts showed anyway. Rory Gallagher, Rare Earth, Cheech & Chong, Black Oak, Foghat, Nugent, etc... You might hear some know-it-alls dispute the list of talent, but I had it together enough to know, my main reason for being there was the music.

What's the connect to the thread, you ask? Although I never felt personally threatened, there WERE fights. Every single one I saw was because of someone who smoked the last joint, drank the last water, ate the last food whatever.... of his group without asking. The percentages were small, I agree, but then again it was just a three day get together. Luckily I left before the crowd burned the stage to the ground Monday afternoon.

I've done so much reading lately that I'm not sure if I saw it here or somewhere else, but it's hard to argue with the statement that, under a capitalist system, the worker is only a resource. Efficiency, productivity and the bottom line are more of a concern than a worker's time for family, personal development or just plain enjoyment of life. A co-worker said in a nutshell a few years back, "The sooner you accept the fact that we're all just Dixie Cups, the less upset you'll be. Nobody cares how they treat a DC. When it's used up, throw it away and get another. There a dime a dozen."

By the same token, though, have you spent any time in a union plant? I'm not anti-union, but I AM realistic. In order to clean my machine, I generated at least 20 gallons of HAS/MAT liquid every day. There were some in my department who would stand back and wait for me to have a mess & get reamed because my 5 gallon bucket was running over. Nothing in their "Job Description" said they were involved so, as far as they were concerned, they weren't.

In your OP you mention work assigned to abilities. I was a semi-professional musician for 28 years. Should I be a happy little worker ant if TPTB decide my dexterity is more suited toward inserting some part into a given widget 16 times a minute instead of playing music?

Just trying to keep it real. It's a shame the selfish, greedy & lazy make the whole worker's paradise thing unworkable.

Capitalism in based on competition, whereas socialism and communism are based on cooperation.

We are a communal species, we lived and worked together long before we were even human. Competition amongst ourselves is not natural - no wonder we have an epidemic of depression and other mental disorders.

I don't think they way we're living is "human nature", most of human history has been relatively peaceful and cooperative. It's only very recently (last 6,000 years or so) with the rise of class society have we developed these problems.

Whether they are Pharaoh's, Kings, dictators or just elite bankers... having a tiny minority screwing the rest of us over will never work. If a dictator rules a country under the banner of "communism" it will never work either.

We need to return to a communal, socialized way of life.

Competition vs. cooperation...



Cooperation is better for all of us (except for the rich elite who will cease to rule over us and may have to share their billions with the starving poor, they will do anything to maintain their power and wealth - including using their resources like media to launch and ideological battle against any system which would free the people from their rule)

I think capitalism would be in a much more esteemed light if it weren't for all of the exploitation that's present today. Examples: companies using the copyright and patent system against others (offensive), when these were conceived originally as defensive mechanisms, the fact that in many industries there is no true free market anymore -- collusion/monopolization is everywhere. The fact that the government interferes with true and fair competition (see: sugar industry). Don't peg me as a government enemy, however, imo it's the corporations and their leadership who keep bringing America down. Unbridled greed, profits before everything (ethics, environmental concerns, etc.) -- the biggest disease of our world atm. I was happy to see the pope speak about this last week.

But ANYHOO -- on to my point. I think many systems (capitalism, socialism, communism) could work well, depending on a great number of factors. Guess what always throws a wrench into things though? People. Yep. Particularly, exploiters.

Look at our capitalist situation. Exploiters/cheaters gaming things, whether CEOs/politicians/both. These people are the problem.

Do they just go away under socialism? My guess is that they will find/work the kinks/game that system too.

Originally posted by AkumaStreak
Examples: companies using the copyright and patent system against others (offensive)

Patents are one aspect of capitalism that I really detest, it stunts the growth of the Human race.

Image if the first guy to invent a spear said to his fellow cavemen "this is my spear technology, if you try to copy it I'm going to sue you for all you got!", and then he hid it to protect himself from industrial espionage.

Humanity would have gotten nowhere if it weren't for our ability to copy each other, all thanks to mirror neurons...



Say no to copyright or anti-pirating laws! Freely sharing information and ideas is the path to greatness for us.

reply to post by fadedface

You quote a lot of famous people. Why not think for yourself instead. Oh, that's right, that's right, that's not the socialist way. Here's another quote for ya:
"Capitalism won the Cold War." - any individual who can think for themselves.

Originally posted by Whiskeychaser
"Capitalism won the Cold War." - any individual who can think for themselves.

The cold war was fought between two factions of the elite, but it was sold to the public on both sides as a war of ideology. In one sense it was, the capitalists way of ruling vs. the "communist" way of ruling - the latter being a dictator or ruling class parading under the banner of communism because the name and idea appeals to the people. There has never actually been a communist country, so obviously none were involved in the cold war.

Really the losers of the war are the masses of people on both sides who pay for it with their taxes and lives. The only winners were the western ruling class.

reply to post by fadedface

''Wealth '' is evenly distributed ! in Socialism . BA HA HA that's funny

reply to post by fadedface


Socialism and it's sister communism do not work. Both systems go against human behavior. If you pay everyone the same amount of money you will feed an environment of animosity. Then eventually people will work less and less, until the point where they do to want work at all. This is exactly what happen in the Soviet Union. Theirs goverment tried to spend like a free market country, when in fact their currency was weak and ineffective.

reply to post by fadedface

How many happy smiling Russians do you ever see ? Vietnamese ? Mongolians ?etc Socialism doesn't make people happy ,therefore it is a failure always has been and always will be and is just as corrupt at the top as so called Capitalism

reply to post by fadedface


Socialism is a failed concept.

Individuals excel due to intelligence and initiative. It is necessary also if society has to develop.

The problem does not lie in wealth creation. The problem lies in lack of spirituality.

The wealthy should consider themselves custodians of wealth rather than hoarders.

Wealthy should donate a significant part of their wealth to the poor and needy as was the case in the ancient Aryavarta. Kings like Rama regularly cleared out the treasury and donated all the excess tax collected. Rama's administration was so efficient that the State was in surplus despite very low taxes.

Vedic law stipulates one-sixth of income as share of the King. Any king that imposes tax of more than one-sixth is called a 'thief'.

Now you can compare with the modern world.

We don't know if it's the best ideology because real socialism has never been put into practice. Plenty of despots and dictator's have lied their way into power under the guise of socialism. But it was all a lie.I think our species is too selfish right now to handle real socialism. And the Rush, Beck toadies have made it a four letter word, so fat chance of it ever happening in the USA.

reply to post by kazanoom


Real socialism is not possible. Basic human nature is to make effort for profit.

A hard working person can never be equated to a sloth.

Socialism is possible only if people are so spiritually advanced that they forego thought of profit. This seems unlikely on earth.

reply to post by fadedface


That is the biggest load of BS I have heard.

Does the largest strongest lion care if the lesser lion eats or goes hungry? We have twisted and manipulated the populous into some overpopulated abhorrent version of itself using ignorant man's ideologies!

At the end of the day we are nothing more than another organism floating on the rock in the chasm only to adhere to one law, survival of the fittest!

Russian communism meant that in order to keep up with your quota of nails, the factory only made inch long nails, not much use for the construction industry is it?